Can lightning be moved by wind?

skipz

When lightning strikes and it travels through the sky can it be moved or its path changed by high winds, or will it have no effect and strike the nearest and highest object?

Hooter23

Strange question but interesting for some reason I doubt that lightning can be moved by wind as it happens so fast not sure though:pac:

lightning is a point to point electrical contact so I'm sure if you had super sensitive equipment then you might see cloud to cloud lightning move.

Cloud to ground strikes no as they actually travel up from the ground to the cloud.
Not a lot of people other than weather geeks know that.

Deep Easterly

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a lot of people other than weather geeks know that.

OK Mr Geek, answer me this :pac:

Is it possible that wind can actually create lightning? I have noticed here during strong wind events (when they did happen once) that sometimes we get these blinding blue flashes of lightning at night (often without nearby shower activity). I think you are familiar with geography of the area which is virtually flat between here to the SW right to the Ocean, which makes me think that gales force winds when they do penetrate up this far can somehow cause some sort of static reaction due to the friction created between wind and earth. This is only an ill thought out theory of mine but is it a theory that is sytemically flawed?

Flights to boston are on sale at the moment and I can highly recommend a visit to the lightning exhibition at the science museum there.
They make their own lightning and make it strike allround their own faraday cage.
They look for volunteers from the audience too to enter the cage when they throw the lightning at it hell for leather.
The cracks are deafening!
An hour or two was well wasted in at that a few years ago

As for lightning with no clouds,I've seen that many times at night over the years.I've always thought it had some connection with water vapour in the air.I've never theorized on wind's contribution so can't remember if it was ever windy during it.
So other than that I can't comment except to say I would like to be struck by it!

Mothman

Deleted User wrote: »

So other than that I can't comment except to say I would like to be struck by it!

Have I read this correctly :eek:

Some flashes in stormy weather are caused by ESB lines

skipz

But say for example when a storm cell turns into a full blown tornado and its throwing rain, hail and lightning would the funnel of wind in any way be able to move the strike?
I know it sounds mad but everything else that enters a tornado or high winds must move, maybe even point to point strikes?

Su Campu

The so called "bolt from the blue" is actually a lightning bolt from a distant storm. They are usually positive strikes from the thunderstorm's anvil, and therefore may seem to happen in the absence of proper thundery cumulonimbus. The main part of the cloud could be up to 20 miles away, but if upper winds blow the anvil downwind towards you, then a strike may occur from it and not the main cloud, even if the anvil is not directly overhead, as the bolt can travel horizontally before turning downwards. That's why it appears to come "from the blue" sky.

Regarding the wind, I would say that the scales of motion involved are so different that there is no discernable effect. Say the discharge lasts for 0.1s and there's a 50mph wind blowing. In that 0.1s, the air will have only moved about 2 metres, but the fact that it's ionising its own channel through that air would mean it will stay fixed in space.

Deep Easterly

Su Campu wrote: »

Regarding the wind, I would say that the scales of motion involved are so different that there is no discernable effect. Say the discharge lasts for 0.1s and there's a 50mph wind blowing. In that 0.1s, the air will have only moved about 2 metres, but the fact that it's ionising its own channel through that air would mean it will stay fixed in space.

The last part just went straight over my head, so if you could humuor my ignorance.

How do you define the 2 metres a second windspeed used in your example as being an 'only'? In other words, on what scale do you base this on, to wit, how is that 'only' summed?

Su Campu

Actually reading back on what I wrote I can see how it doesn't make sense! I meant the lightning is ionising its own channel and stays fixed in space.

But thinking about it some more, maybe that's not quite correct. The electromagnetic field is being generated between two points, namely the cloud and the ground, and when it becomes strong enough, the air molecules in between become ionised and the current flows. So what we see as lightning is a channel of plasma (ionised gas). The fact that lightning is zigzag and not perfectly straight must be down to minute conductivity differences between different parts of the air. So in theory these differences, along with the plasma channel, will actually be moved along in the main flow, at a rate of 2 metres over the duration of the strike, meaning the strike must be moved along too.

I could be totally wrong on all this, I'm just thinking out loud. Interesting subject though.

John mac

Deleted User wrote: »

Flights to boston are on sale at the moment and I can highly recommend a visit to the lightning exhibition at the science museum there.
They make their own lightning and make it strike allround their own faraday cage.
They look for volunteers from the audience too to enter the cage when they throw the lightning at it hell for leather.
The cracks are deafening!
An hour or two was well wasted in at that a few years ago

I can also recommend this . brilliant show.

Deep Easterly

Su Campu wrote: »

Actually reading back on what I wrote I can see how it doesn't make sense! I meant the lightning is ionising its own channel and stays fixed in space.

But thinking about it some more, maybe that's not quite correct. The electromagnetic field is being generated between two points, namely the cloud and the ground, and when it becomes strong enough, the air molecules in between become ionised and the current flows. So what we see as lightning is a channel of plasma (ionised gas). The fact that lightning is zigzag and not perfectly straight must be down to minute conductivity differences between different parts of the air. So in theory these differences, along with the plasma channel, will actually be moved along in the main flow, at a rate of 2 metres over the duration of the strike, meaning the strike must be moved along too.

I could be totally wrong on all this, I'm just thinking out loud. Interesting subject though.

Sorry Su, I totally misread your other post! I though you were referring to my earlier post in which I imagined that wind in itself could act as a instigator of lightning due to friction with the ground. :rolleyes:

Another question! does lightning cut through the actual rain drops? or does it avoid them as it channels its way up, down or across? I haven't a clue about how electricy and water would work together.

Su Campu

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Sorry Su, I totally misread your other post! I though you were referring to my earlier post in which I imagined that wind in itself could act as a instigator of lightning due to friction with the ground. :rolleyes:

Another question! does lightning cut through the actual rain drops? or does it avoid them as it channels its way up, down or across? I haven't a clue about how electricy and water would work together.

Basically a thunderstorm is like a giant electrical switch. You have massive opposite charges separated by a layer of air, a few kms thick. When there's a discharge, it's like someone switched on the switch, the circuit is closed, and current flows across the terminal.

The voltages required for this to happen are enormous. The ionisation potential (ie. the voltage required to overcome the resistance of air) of dry air is around 30,000 V/cm! For an average cumulonimbus, you've got positive charge built up in the upper anvil and negative charge in the lower part, which induces a positive charge in the underlying ground. Say the distance between the cloud and ground is 1km - that would mean the voltage difference would need to build up to around (30,000x100x1000)=3,000,000,000 V (ie. 3 billion volts!), giving a current of around 30,000 Amps! The temperature gets up to around 30,000°C, eh, more than enough to instantly vaporise any water in its path.

I imagine the resistance of rain-laden air would be slightly different, depending on thte purity of the water, etc (maybe marine thunderstorms or hurricanes need less voltages as there would be more dissolved salts in the water, I don't know). I do know that many lightning strike survivors only survived because they were wet at the time (joggers, golfers, etc. caught out in the rain), so the lightning flowed outside their body along this wet surface, and not through it, which certainly would have killed them. There was a program about it a while ago, and one of the survivors set up this website, well worth a read)

Deep Easterly

Su Campu wrote: »

The voltages required for this to happen are enormous. The ionisation potential (ie. the voltage required to overcome the resistance of air) of dry air is around 30,000 V/cm! For an average cumulonimbus, you've got positive charge built up in the upper anvil and negative charge in the lower part, which induces a positive charge in the underlying ground. Say the distance between the cloud and ground is 1km - that would mean the voltage difference would need to build up to around (30,000x100x1000)=3,000,000,000 V (ie. 3 billion volts!), giving a current of around 30,000 Amps! The temperature gets up to around 30,000°C, eh, more than enough to instantly vaporise any water in its path.

Yes, this only clicked in my dim mind after I posted! Of course the actual heat intensity of a bolt would vaporise anything in its path. .

Thanks for the explanation though, will need to read it about 3 or 4 times before it can be fully absorbed into the festoring lump of rot that is my brain.

Mothman

Mothman wrote: »

Have I read this correctly :eek:

Some flashes in stormy weather are caused by ESB lines

oh god...crucial three letter word missing there