Why did André Frossard believe in God.

AudreyHepburn

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I wholeheartedly applaud you AudreyHepburn!

I see you taking much the same path as me:

From:

- believing in God but all I really know in this country is catholicism, and I am still affected by societal boundaries, so call myself a Catholic,
-start to think more, realise I don't agree with the majority of Catholic teachings but definitely believe in Jesus so call myself a Christian
- Do more research, Realise I hate labels altogether and want to have my own individual beliefs, so now I say I believe in God, but am not part of any religion.

Your posts show that you are really thinking about this and that is really important . And well done at not getting offended by the A&A's. That shows strength, they're a tough crowd Best of luck on your travels

Yay some-one's actually making an effort to listen to .

Thanks midlandmissus. I wish the others on here were more open minded like you.

c_man

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Yay some-one's actually making an effort to listen to .

Thanks midlandmissus. I wish the others on here were more open minded like you.

So we're not open minded for pointing out that your beliefs, as posted here, aren't Catholic?

Why not wander over to the Christian forum... I think you'd find they'd tell you pretty much the same thing.

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I wish the others on here were more open minded like you.

I think Audrey, if you took the trouble to read some of the calmer posts, you'd find that there's a lot more open-mindedness on display than you're making out.

AudreyHepburn

Ok I've conceded on the other thread so I may as well do it here too.

I am not a Catholic in the way the Roman Catholic church would like me to be.

I'm probably more an a-la-carte catholic in that I do hold some beliefs ie God, Mary as Jesus Mother, Jesus, his miracles, the last supper, the crucifixion.

But some things, like the virgin birth, I don't believe.

King Mob

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But some things, like the virgin birth, I don't believe.

Isn't that one of the ones you need to be a catholic?

ColmDawson

King Mob wrote: »

Isn't that one of the ones you need to be a catholic?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056015674&page=7

Ghost Buster

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Ok I've conceded on the other thread so I may as well do it here too.

I am not a Catholic in the way the Roman Catholic church would like me to be.

I'm probably more an a-la-carte catholic in that I do hold some beliefs ie God, Mary as Jesus Mother, Jesus, his miracles, the last supper, the crucifixion.

But some things, like the virgin birth, I don't believe.

Christian....................................... not catholic.......:rolleyes:

AudreyHepburn

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Christian....................................... not catholic.......:rolleyes:

FFS isn't that what I just said?

AudreyHepburn

King Mob wrote: »

Isn't that one of the ones you need to be a catholic?

As I just said, I concede I'm not catolic in the way the Church wants me to be. I'm a-la-carte.

What more can I say?

Nemi

I'm going back more to the OP question of why this named individual chose to believe

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Maybe it was, but as atheists, we would lack belief in supernatural, so without experiencing it ourselves, we would have to say it was a delusion, or else be inconsistent in our position.

Can I add to that my feeling that the account of a conversion is likely to be constructed afterwards. I'm not suggesting this means its consciously invented. But I think people will construct a narrative around their conversion.

I'd never heard of this guy before, so I googled a bit. This article was the closest I found to him proferring an explanation. It strikes me that his justification for believing is, ultimately, social. He holds atheism to be morally debilitating. I haven't a clue if it is, which could mean that he's right.

But, mostly, reading that article made me think of the uselessness of dialogue. I find this kind of devotional writing incomprehensible. I'm sure it makes perfect sense to the people writing it, and good luck to them. But I simply can't explain why this man decided to become a Catholic, and apparently assign all kinds of significance and joy to ceremonies around the Eucharist, because I find I've no idea what he's talking about.

And I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I'm not at all suggesting he's any of the worse for it. I just don't see how atheists can explain it.

If there is some common ground, its in the recognition that life is about other people. I think that principle is present in most outlooks. If conversion helped this person to that realisation, then I've no doubt it was a good thing for him.

Next question?

Ghost Buster

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As I just said, I concede I'm not catolic in the way the Church wants me to be. I'm a-la-carte.

What more can I say?

Please please please please answer this
What part of your Christian beliefs differs from those of other Christian denominations to make you (partially) Catholic .

AudreyHepburn

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Please please please please answer this
What part of your Christian beliefs differs from those of other Christian denominations to make you (partially) Catholic .

Look I've already conceded I'm more Christian than Catholic so can please move on now?

King Mob

Why exactly do you not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection, yet believe in the miracles?

Shenshen

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I think this theory is far too simplistic. Plenty of people stay in the religion of their parents, and plenty of people who've had a non-religious upbringing become religious. There's probably a lot more too it than that.

I agree. I think it's less to do with the family you grew up in, and much, much more to do with the society around you.

While people from religious families can turn out either religious or not, as do people from non-religious families, from what I observe most people who do turn out religious will pick a religion common to the society they live in. Note that I'm saying most, definitely not all.

It's still quite rare for people in Europe to look into religion and decide that they belief in Hinduism, or Taoism. For the vast majority, it will be Christianity they will turn to.
The same appears to be happening in areas dominated by Buddhism (people will turn Buddhist rather than, say, Sikh), Islam, you name it.

I've been wondering if there is some pre-disposition in some people towards religion and spirituality, which others lack, and which will result in them becoming religious.
What particular religion they choose seems to be more of a majority decision, though.

AudreyHepburn

King Mob wrote: »

Why exactly do you not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection, yet believe in the miracles?

Because rising from the dead and getting pregnant whilst a virgin aren't physically possible, that I'm aware of.

Well I know nowadays you can have a baby by IVF or surrogacy but obviously in Jesus' day you couldn't.

But the miracles attributed to Jesus could be true if he where some kind of Doctor or healer.

Shenshen

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Because rising from the dead and getting pregnant whilst a virgin aren't physically possible, that I'm aware of.

Well I know nowadays you can have a baby by IVF or surrogacy but obviously in Jesus' day you couldn't.

But the miracles attributed to Jesus could be true if he where some kind of Doctor or healer.

The turning water into wine, and walking on water bits?

Pushtrak

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But the miracles attributed to Jesus could be true if he where some kind of Doctor or healer.

Loaves and fishes? Condemning a fig tree to never grow fruit? Thunder and lighthing? (Oh, that was Zeus.)

AudreyHepburn

Shenshen wrote: »

The turning water into wine, and walking on water bits?

Metaphorical.

We've been through all this.

Shenshen

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Metaphorical.

We've been through all this.

Right... so metaphors, not miracles?
Sounds more like philosophy than religion to me

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Look I've already conceded I'm more Christian than Catholic so can please move on now?

Just on a mod note...

I'm as intrigued by your religious views as quite a few other posters seem to be, and I think it's worth spending a bit of time on the topic, just to get to the bottom of them. Mostly because what I've read of them suggests that you're still developing your views and haven't yet reached a final and immovable conclusion.

That said, if you find the questions themselves unhelpful, rather than just the tone you perceive in these questions, then as mods, Dades and I can certainly ask people to refrain from bringing up the topic. Though it's not something we would normally do since it goes against the forum's general thrust of open inquiry.

Your call on this one.

King Mob

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Because rising from the dead and getting pregnant whilst a virgin aren't physically possible, that I'm aware of.

Well I know nowadays you can have a baby by IVF or surrogacy but obviously in Jesus' day you couldn't.

But the miracles attributed to Jesus could be true if he where some kind of Doctor or healer.

So then you don't believe that the miracles where supernatural?
And therefore not miracles.

So if there was nothing supernatural about Jesus, why believe that he was the son of God?

krudler

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Because rising from the dead and getting pregnant whilst a virgin aren't physically possible, that I'm aware of.

Well I know nowadays you can have a baby by IVF or surrogacy but obviously in Jesus' day you couldn't.

But the miracles attributed to Jesus could be true if he where some kind of Doctor or healer.

But being the human equivalent of god is?

AudreyHepburn

robindch wrote: »

Just on a mod note...

I'm as intrigued by your religious views as quite a few other posters seem to be, and I think it's worth spending a bit of time on the topic, just to get to the bottom of them. Mostly because what I've read of them suggests that you're still developing your views and haven't yet reached a final and immovable conclusion.

That said, if you find the questions themselves unhelpful, rather than just the tone you perceive in these questions, then as mods, Dades and I can certainly ask people to refrain from bringing up the topic. Though it's not something we would normally do since it goes against the forum's general thrust of open inquiry.

Your call on this one.

Don't go against the charter Rob. I really don't mind a good debate and am as open to challenge as the next person.

It's just that I've stated my position over and over so I really don't know what more people expect me to say.

I'm really sorry if I'm causing you problems btw! Maybe I should just leave the thread alone?

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I really don't mind a good debate and am as open to challenge as the next person.

Fair enough -- do PM Dades or myself if you feel that things are getting too hot or personal.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's just that I've stated my position over and over so I really don't know what more people expect me to say.

Well, I think that people are interested because they sense that you're holding contradictory views and haven't yet explained why, or at least, not sufficiently convincingly anyway. ie, you've said that you accept certain parts of the new testament texts as accurate, but don't trust other parts, and it's not clear what rationale you're using to distinguish.

I also suspect a lot of the interest derives from people who've been in a situation like yours (where you're still forming views and figuring out where the boundaries lie) but where the other posters may not have had access to well-informed people who ask the kind of questions that people who are already committed to one religion, or one specific interpretation of a religion, tend to discourage.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm really sorry if I'm causing you problems btw!

No problems -- polite discussion is always good

Pushtrak

I think this thread needs a little humour.

Why did André Frossard believe in God.

Because the chicken crossed the road.


Ok, not funny.


/Grabs coat.

alex73

o1s1n wrote: »

Catholicism follows a certain set of beliefs. If you don't believe them, you are not a Catholic.

If you believe in christ but don't fit any specific religious category, you are a Christian. Is there something wrong with 'just' being a Christian? I don't get it?

The word Catholic only means katholikos or universal from Greek. The Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox church claim they are the universal church.

Christian is a person who follows Christ.

Nemi

Pushtrak wrote: »

Why did André Frossard believe in God.

That's easy. But answer me this. Does God believe in André Frossard?

Nemi

alex73 wrote: »

The Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox church claim they are the universal church.

Isn't it a bit broader than that? I thought the Church of Ireland has sensitivities about not being regarded as "Catholic"; but obviously wouldn't see themselves as "Roman Catholic".

Also, on the Christian thing, am I right that some strands of Christianity would feel Roman Catholics are so much in error that they can't be regarded as Christian?

I'd say Audrey can self-identify with whatever she wants. I mean, Christianity is Open Source.

Herbal Deity

It might be open source, but if you modify it, you might break the algorithm for getting into heaven.

MrPudding

I am pretty certain that not believing in zombie Jesus is a bar to being a christian.

Several of the posters on the other forum, soulwinner for example, have repeatedly stated that if it were shown to have not happened (which obviously it didn't) then they could no longer call themselves christians. It seems, therefore, to be the main plank of christianity.

Perhaps, Audrey, it woudl be more accurate to describe yourself as "a bit spiritual?"

MrP

AudreyHepburn

MrPudding wrote: »

I am pretty certain that not believing in zombie Jesus is a bar to being a christian.

Several of the posters on the other forum, soulwinner for example, have repeatedly stated that if it were shown to have not happened (which obviously it didn't) then they could no longer call themselves christians. It seems, therefore, to be the main plank of christianity.

Perhaps, Audrey, it woudl be more accurate to describe yourself as "a bit spiritual?"

MrP

Nope no accurate at all.

I say I'm Christian because I believe Christ and the God of the Bible but apparently I'm only deist to people here.

Actually I'm kind of confused now, what am I?

krudler

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Nope no accurate at all.

I say I'm Christian because I believe Christ and the God of the Bible but apparently I'm only deist to people here.

Actually I'm kind of confused now, what am I?

Beliving in Christ being a real person doesnt make you a christian though, I've already said I believe Jesus was a real historical figure, a prophet no, miracle worker no, son of god no,original zombie no, but a guy who just wanted people to get along? sure why not? seems plausible. The fundamental beliefs of being a christian are the Christ was the son of god, and he died and resurrected before going to heaven, that the cornerstone of the entire belief system, its not debatable, not interpretable, not up for metaphors or moralistic stories or anything else. If you dont believe it, you aint in the club.

MrPudding

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Actually I'm kind of confused now, what am I?

Hang in there. That is what we are trying to work out.

MrP

midlandsmissus

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Nope no accurate at all.

I say I'm Christian because I believe Christ and the God of the Bible but apparently I'm only deist to people here.

Actually I'm kind of confused now, what am I?

You have your own personal beliefs, like all of us

You are a very important individual with your own ideas, why do you need to conform to any particular religion?

You have your own beliefs so fly with them, don't think they're not imporant just because they're your own and not anyone elses...:)

mikhail

krudler wrote: »

Beliving in Christ being a real person doesnt make you a christian though, I've already said I believe Jesus was a real historical figure, a prophet no, miracle worker no, son of god no,original zombie no, but a guy who just wanted people to get along? sure why not? seems plausible. The fundamental beliefs of being a christian are the Christ was the son of god, and he died and resurrected before going to heaven, that the cornerstone of the entire belief system, its not debatable, not interpretable, not up for metaphors or moralistic stories or anything else. If you dont believe it, you aint in the club.

I think anyone who worships Christ as a god is Christian.

I don't think that's affected by whether they believe in the virgin birth, resurrection and ascension or that he never visited earth but rather sent an anthropomorphic, holographic messenger of the same name and is in fact a giant reptilian alien residing in seclusion on the Saturanian moon Mimas.

philologos

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Christian....................................... not catholic.......:rolleyes:

Most Christians believe that Mary was a virgin, and that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Paul the Apostle marks it as a central teaching of Christianity, in that when Jesus died, our sin was died with Him, and when Jesus rose again, we rose to new life with Him. He even said that the Christian faith is worthless if we didn't believe in the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14)

They differ from mainline Christian beliefs as well as just Roman Catholicism from what I can see. Very liberal churches would certainly deny the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection, but that's about it really. Perhaps AudreyHepburn would put herself into the very liberal category.

The question is why do I worship Christ - Jesus was the living Son of God, ministered for 3 years the Gospel and its affects on our lives, and died on the cross, paid for the sin of the world, and rose again 3 days later.

As for the OP - It's possible that people can believe in God with full conviction and be intelligent. Indeed, I'd suspect no less than it is for atheists.

Nemi

Herbal Deity wrote: »

It might be open source, but if you modify it, you might break the algorithm for getting into heaven.

But that's just "Be Excellent to Each Other", isn't it?

MrPudding wrote: »

I am pretty certain that not believing in zombie Jesus is a bar to being a christian.

I've a feeling there were early Christians who didn't have much truck with his divinity, and I think who even questioned the crucifixion.

Clearly, they would be heretics in today's mainstream Christianity. But there may well be a tradition there that people could draw on, if they want to. I mean, don't many pagans draw on modern understandings of what pagans may or may not have believed in the past?