Koran burning in Florida

KeithAFC

I burned a harry potter book a year ago. The difference? I don't see any difference.

Zillah

Xon wrote: »

QED I'm afraid Zillah?

Am I to take this to imply that the Taliban would be correct in their anti-Americanism due to the fact that this book burning is taking place?

KeithAFC wrote: »

I burned a harry potter book a year ago. The difference? I don't see any difference.

Why...did you burn a Harry Potter book?

KeithAFC

Zillah wrote: »

Am I to take this to imply that the Taliban would be correct in their anti-Americanism due to the fact that this book burning is taking place?



Why...did you burn a Harry Potter book?

Dislike Harry potter.

recedite

Galvasean wrote: »

Sometimes I swear I think people are deliberatley trying to bring about the end of the world.

Unfortunate but true.
Heres the best bit; the name of that florida church is The Dove World Outreach Center.
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6694837-dove-world-outreach-centers-burn-a-koran-day-receives-strong-rejection-puts-the-world-in-danger

On the subject of book burning, I see the same clown/troll has written a book called "Islam is of the Devil".
If Al Quaeda are so dangerous to the USA, why is this guy still alive?
Maybe he works for their recruitment department.:)


For some reason the Doves official website is down at the moment :pac: :pac: :pac:
http://www.doveworld.org/

Zillah

KeithAFC wrote: »

Dislike Harry potter.

There's lots of things I dislike, some things I could even describe as 'hating', but I've never felt the need to burn a book. Could you tell us a little more about this book burning?

Rev Hellfire

Personally I think he should burn the books, its no different to the cartoon day upon which so many where approving off here.

There's the same implicit threat here in that if he proceeds then other will react with violence.

I'd ask zillah would he be equally opposed to someone burning a blank notebook.

nozzferrahhtoo

krudler wrote: »

so a Florida pastor plans to burn some Korans to send a message to Islam, do you care?

No I do not „care“ but I do find the action cowardly. Burning a book to me is about as useful as punching out someone who disagrees with you. It basically just says “I am not articulate or intelligent enough to discuss with you why I disagree with you, so I am going to do this instead to reinstate the lost self esteem that this causes instead”

If he is burning the Koran this just tells me he tried to read it and was not smart enough to disagree with it, or discuss it in any meaningful fashion, so he feels like taking “action” instead. It is nothing but intellectual cowardice and an attempt to provoke a reaction. Trolling if you will.

However while my opinion of him is clearly low, I honestly do not care what he is doing. He wants to burn his own property, let him. If someone wants to react violently to him doing so, throw the book at them, so to speak.

drkpower

How is this playing in the States in view of the ongoing row over the Mosque? Are those on the religious right comparing the two?

ie. The Mosque builders have the constituional right to build; but it is insensitive to thousands of people if you do;
The Koran burners have the constituional right to burn; but it is insensitive to thousands of people if you do;

If you liberals think its ok to build, why do you think its not ok for us to burn? I can see Billo having a field day on that one - and it seems like a relatively attractive argument to run.

Dades

Mrmoe wrote: »

Why do such a small group of nutjobs get exposure like this? This is the most important and dangerous aspect. Next they will be giving prime time coverage to the guy standing on the corner shouting that the end is nigh.

I was thinking that this morning watching it on Sky News, and it was making me mad.

The President of the US is standing up saying how this will cost the lives of troops while every US network and news outlet is making sure that everyone on the globe hears about some whackjob in Florida because they have nothing better to report. They should have been shamed in silence about running that story at all.

Morrigin

drkpower wrote: »

How is this playing in the States in view of the ongoing row over the Mosque? Are those on the religious right comparing the two?

ie. The Mosque builders have the constituional right to build; but it is insensitive to thousands of people if you do;
The Koran burners have the constituional right to burn; but it is insensitive to thousands of people if you do;

If you liberals think its ok to build, why do you think its not ok for us to burn? I can see Billo having a field day on that one - and it seems like a relatively attractive argument to run.

Because firstly it's not a mosque (it's an Islamic Information Centre and it is open to people of all denominations), secondly it was already there before 11 September 2001 - they're just moving across the road to bigger premises, and thirdly there are many American Muslims who are not or do not endorse terrorists.

drkpower

:rolleyes:I dont give a damn about the Mosque or whatever it is, the story is utter nonsense; I am simply asking if anyone knows the reaction in the US and whether the right are playing the Koran-story against the Mosque-one.

Looks like you will have to find someone else to disagree with......;)

JSully

The book as an object being burnes is of no matter, its the meaning of the burning which is the problem, its like someone going on tv and getting all their mates to burn an effigy of your mother. Its not your actual mother but its gotta get you angry right?

That aside I think that the burning is misdirected anyway, The Koran is the book for all Muslims right? angering a whole religion to show contempt for an extremist religious terrorist cell doesnt make any sense.

Zillah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Personally I think he should burn the books, its no different to the cartoon day upon which so many where approving off here.

There's the same implicit threat here in that if he proceeds then other will react with violence.

I made two distinct points. The first was that burning a book is symbolic of close mindedness, tyranny, insecurity and intellectual hegemony. That's what makes it so ugly.

Draw mohammed day is about demonstrating an opposing view, not symbolically destroying the right of the other side to express their view.

As for violence, I agree that a threat of violence is a terrible reason to not do something. That wasn't the point I made. My point is that by doing this we are arming the Taliban and their ilk with potent tools for recruitment. It's not that I'm afraid they will be violent towards us, I'm afraid we're giving them the means to be more effective in their violence.

I'd ask zillah would he be equally opposed to someone burning a blank notebook.

Er no, because the symbolism goes away. You're literally just burning paper.

Shenshen

KeithAFC wrote: »

I burned a harry potter book a year ago. The difference? I don't see any difference.

Meh, I burned my latin textbooks the day after I finished school. One of the most liberating moments in life, trust me.

That doesn't mean I appreciate people burning books with the explicit aim to shock, offend or intimidate others.

Rev Hellfire

Zillah wrote: »

I made two distinct points. The first was that burning a book is symbolic of close mindedness, tyranny, insecurity and intellectual hegemony. That's what makes it so ugly.

I'd certainly agree with that, but typically such actions where also followed by the complete censorship of the burnt publications. Which is not the case in this situation.

Zillah wrote: »

Draw Mohammed day is about demonstrating an opposing view, not symbolically destroying the right of the other side to express their view.

It was also a demonstration that the threat of violence would not effectively lead to self-censorship. And while we might not agree with the reasoning of the church which intends to burn these books, seeking to have it halted due to a fear of violence is no different to the reasoning to having a draw Mohammed day.

Zillah wrote: »

My point is that by doing this we are arming the Taliban and their ilk with potent tools for recruitment. It's not that I'm afraid they will be violent towards us, I'm afraid we're giving them the means to be more effective in their violence.

We can't placate our enemies by removing our own freedoms, its self defeating.

Shenshen

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

It was also a demonstration that the threat of violence would not effectively lead to self-censorship. And while we might not agree with the reasoning of the church which intends to burn these books, seeking to have it halted due to a fear of violence is no different to the reasoning to having a draw Mohammed day.


We can't placate our enemies by removing our own freedoms, its self defeating.

I think you're confusing two things here.
Nobody is arguing that the fellow shouldn't have the freedom to burn any book he feels like.
What's being debated is if it's a good idea to burn a book with the distinct aim of antagonising people. Not if it should be illegal, just if it's an advisable, clever thing to do.

Rev Hellfire

Shenshen wrote: »

I think you're confusing two things here.
Nobody is arguing that the fellow shouldn't have the freedom to burn any book he feels like.
What's being debated is if it's a good idea to burn a book with the distinct aim of antagonising people. Not if it should be illegal, just if it's an advisable, clever thing to do.

But it all boils down to he shouldn't do it due to a fear of reprisals from extremists.
Its the chilling effect in place when anything negative is suggested about islam.

drkpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But it all boils down to he shouldn't do it due to a fear of reprisals from extremist.
Its the chilling effect in place when anything negative is suggested about islam.

No it boils down to the fact that you shouldnt do something purely to antagonise anyone else and for no other good reason. While the effect of that antagonisation (be it mild upset or extreme violence) isnt entirely irrelevent, that is or, at least, should be a secondary consideration.

Rev Hellfire

drkpower wrote: »

No it boils down to the fact that you shouldnt do something purely to antagonise anyone else and for no other good reason. While the effect of that antagonisation (be it mild upset or extreme violence) isnt entirely irrelevent, that is or, at least, should be a secondary consideration.

I respectfully disagree, this only has the oxygen it receives due to the threat of violence from elements in the Islamic community. If he was out burning copies of the god delusion do you think there would be the same level of discussion ?

Shenshen

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But it all boils down to he shouldn't do it due to a fear of reprisals from extremists.
Its the chilling effect in place when anything negative is suggested about islam.

To me, it's more a "He shouldn't do it, because he only wants to do it to offend".
Pretty much the same reason why I wouldn't be happy about any atheist organisation picketing religious funerals chanting "There's no heaven anyway".

I'm not arguing that we should let our actions be dictated by fears of how others will react, but I think we shouldn't let them be guided by thoughts of what will offend most, either.

Shenshen

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, this only has the oxygen it receives due to the threat of violence from elements in the Islamic community. If he was out burning copies of the god delusion do you think there would be the same level of discussion ?

No.

Incidentally, this is exactly why you find so few people burning the "God Delusion", and so many people burning American flags.

drkpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, this only has the oxygen it receives due to the threat of violence from elements in the Islamic community. If he was out burning copies of the god delusion do you think there would be the same level of discussion ?

I am arguing how it should be; you should not do something purely to antagonise another. That applies to this as it applies to anything else.

Whether or not it is receiving publicity due to the threats of violence or not doesnt change that fundamental point.

Rev Hellfire

drkpower wrote: »

I am arguing how it should be; you should not do something purely to antagonise another.

And no-one is arguing against that.

drkpower wrote: »

Whether or not it is receiving publicity due to the threats of violence or not doesnt change that fundamental point.

True, but real issue for people is the perceived threat of violence in response to it. The other fundamental issue is readiness of the practitioners of Islam to respond with violence to any criticism or slight directed their way. Resulting in pressure exerted against people to ensure that doesn't happen by mollifying to them.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Even the most violent protests against the West in the Middle East I haven't heard of people burning Bibles.

Truth really is stranger than fiction. The only people who seem to be burning Bibles in the Middle East are the US military!

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/index.html

Ush1

PDN wrote: »

Truth really is stranger than fiction. The only people who seem to be burning Bibles in the Middle East are the US military!

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/index.html

"If we leave them lying around, they might think we're trying to convert them."

Weren't Somalies raping nuns, burning bibles and effigies of the pope after he made comments on the violent nature of certain parts of Islam?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

The only people who seem to be burning Bibles in the Middle East are the US military

Good on 'em! I wish they'd do the same in places like the Air Force Academy:

http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_363.shtml

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

Dislike Harry potter.

Didn't know he was a republican.

*I jest*

KeithAFC

Shenshen wrote: »

Meh, I burned my latin textbooks the day after I finished school. One of the most liberating moments in life, trust me.

That doesn't mean I appreciate people burning books with the explicit aim to shock, offend or intimidate others.

Shock at the burning of a book....

Truley

pawrick wrote: »

i could be way out on this but I think they both share certain parts from the old testament and so both religions are meant to respect each others one

Has anyone here actually read the Qur'an? It and the bible are practically the same book, sharing parts of the old and the new testament. I can't remember where I read it, but apparently they share roughly 60 identical characters and stories. Including the story of Adam and Eve, Jesus, Mary, Archangel Gabriel etc I haven't read the Qur'an myself, although I do own a copy and have browsed through it. Doesn't have any major differences beyond a few names and minor details, go figure.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Whoops!... you probably wouldn't like my tshirt then

I see your insulting tshirt, and raise you...

eoin5

The act of condemning it has the effect of legitimising it as a way of getting noticed. I'm thinking we should just ignore this or at the most maybe take some time to poke fun at it.

Standman

As far as I'm concerned, this eventual koran burning by a miniscule church in america should have never even gotten onto the world stage. Should never have actually reached farther than local news imo, but since it fits in nicely with the ongoing news-story narrative of americans becoming more and more anti-islam, a church group comprising of 50 people who no-one even new existed a few weeks ago and whose opinions nobody should give a damn about has suddenly been placed at the forefront.

I think in this case, the media coverage and the way this is being reported is what should be condemned here more than anything else.

johnny_ultimate

Just read about this, pretty ludicrous story. It's a problem with many religious organisations: a constant need to reiterate their belief that they are right, everyone else is wrong - hell, it's what caused 9/11 in the first place. It merely strengthens the tensions and distrust between people. It's the same problem with, say, Christians standing at the top of Grafton Street with banners every Saturday night. Yeah, Koran burning is far more extreme, but the aim is to attract attention, and remain in the public eye. I don't go around burning bibles, Koran's or any other 'holy books' in public, or don't stand at the top of Henry Street with a 'LOL God doesn't exist' sign. Religious people should show the same basic respect. We may not agree, but no need to be so frickin' aggressive about it. People are free to have their beliefs, but publicly humiliating others is hardly doing you any favours. It just leads to ever more extreme actions. What next, Christians going to violently attack innocent Islamic people?

Oh.

Just watched the news. The Pastor had a gun up next to him on his desk. I think he may be needing that.

equivariant

Anyway, in this day and age, shouldn't he be burning ipads or kindles or some such things? Or maybe write an app to virtually burn your ikoran? I'm sure Bill Gates would throw a few bucks his way if he burned a few ipads.

PS If the atheist community wants to get in on the incendiary action, what should we burn?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

dead animals

could have a few beers after too

Skrynesaver

Got to love the headline in that cartoon

goat2

krudler wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11209738

so a Florida pastor plans to burn some Korans to send a message to Islam, do you care? just another book? or is it a can of worms just waiting to be smashed open. Its pretty much a given we can expect news reports of hysterical fundmentalists waving ak's in the air, torching American flags and possibly stomping on oranges to protest Florida,all the while trying to convince people they're not a violent religion. Those Islamic types crack me up :pac:

this especially:



I'm sorry, are the troops not already in danger? are the Taliban going to start using real guns as opposed to the grenade launchers that fire kittens that lick you to death they've been using the whole time?

that pastor is wrong he will cause more trouble for all he will be the cause of great waste of money, with a threat on his life and the security being paid to protect him, if he does this.he would not like people to burn books he beleive inhe is calling a war on religionsi would not like someone from another religion burning my bible he will bring on alot of trouble on the people of all religions we all should respect each others beleifs whether we agree or not with them

Rev Hellfire

goat2 wrote: »

that pastor is wrong he will cause more trouble for all he will be the cause of great waste of money, with a threat on his life and the security being paid to protect him, if he does this.he would not like people to burn books he beleive inhe is calling a war on religionsi would not like someone from another religion burning my bible he will bring on alot of trouble on the people of all religions we all should respect each others beleifs whether we agree or not with them

How is he causing the trouble? He's burning a book, there's no violence in that.
Its those who react to it which are to blame.

Perhaps he has some responsibility in the same way someone who walks alone down a dark alley which some jeering lads in it are responsible for it if they get beaten up.

goat2

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

How is he causing the trouble? He's burning a book, there's no violence in that.
Its those who react to it which are to blame.

Perhaps he has some responsibility in the same way someone who walks alone down a dark alley which some jeering lads in it are responsible for it if they get beaten up.

remember rushdie who wrote a bookhe had to hide out for a long timewhy bring this trouble on

Rev Hellfire

goat2 wrote: »

remember rushdie who wrote a bookhe had to hide out for a long timewhy bring this trouble on

So are you saying it's his fault for writing the books ?

Rev Hellfire

goat2 wrote: »

i am not saying it is anybodys fault, but in every religion there are fanatics and they will not stop until they get revenge , what i am saying ishe should not burn the book, and cop on to himself

Ahh I get you, so rushdie shouldn't have written that book or Theo van Gogh that film because you don't want to incite the fanatics.

robindch

krudler wrote: »

Its pretty much a given we can expect news reports of hysterical fundmentalists waving ak's in the air, torching American flags and possibly stomping on oranges

Actually, what's happened this time is rather more interesting -- other than the Pakistani foreign minister rambling on this morning about the need to "respect religion", instead we have the sorry sight of high-ranking individuals from the democratic countries queuing up to condemn what, after all, is a man relatively peacefully exercising his right to free speech. Given what happened with the motoons, this condemnation is understandable if not forgivable.

But I've seen few if any people pointing out that (a) while Mr Jones is clearly a very weird, if not a vividly psychotic, individual, he does have a right to burn whatever books he's bought himself and (b) that the problem here is not so much burning one religious book or another, but that he's playing into the hands of the militant islamic nutters who will eke as much propaganda value out of this as they can (though I do recall Petraeus pointing this out briefly) and the worldwide media frenzy that surrounds this event is clearly help that enormously.

Most worryingly, the west has decided on a policy of self-censoring in favour of the militants --- effectively doing the work of censorship that the militants would otherwise have to do themselves -- and that's a very crap precedent to set.

Hooter23

These Muslims are out protesting about someone burning their Koran but why didn't they go out protesting after the 9/11 attacks to say it wasn't what their religion is about:mad:
Instead some of them went out onto the streets celebrating 9/11 attacks

I think this guy burning the Koran is just trying to prove a point about these so called very religious peaceful Muslims if someone over in a Muslim country decided to burn a bible do you think non-Muslims would go out protesting and threaten attacks I don't think so we wouldn't even take notice why can't Muslims do the same.

Marcus.Aurelius

I think the pastor is dead wrong to burn the Koran, but not because there is anything especially wrong about burning such a book. Since he knows the damage it could cause worldwide to ordinary people, it is pushing the boundaries of sense to proceed with his plans.

Rather than play pin the tail on the ignorant born again Christian, perhaps there is a deeper question to be considered. If so many fundamentalist Muslims cannot help but butcher/threaten everyone they see after hearing about some wizened old fraud in Florida burning books on metaphysical nonsense, then we should perhaps begin to question the sanity of condemning the old man instead of the murderously intolerant lunatics he is setting out to upset.

D.R cowboy

I was just chatting the old man there , and he is bringing a couple of his mates over to burn the Koran like the old days, he said he is having a barbecue too. He is a mad man if you ask me , there a lots mulism doctors around our neighborhood and if they see him their will be trouble. I'm going to invite the guys incase things get out of hand. He is even trying to get RTE up here too.

eoin5

Was bored.

Undergod

He has every right to burn the book; he bought/otherwise acquired it, he can do whatever he likes with it.

BUT it's an immensely nasty and ignorant thing to do, not to mention foolish. I can't think of a situation where books ought to be destroyed, and he's asking to get his ass kicked.

Hobbes

Just to put this in perspective (if it isn't already mentioned). The person organizing the book burnings is Pastor Phelps. You might remember him from such gems as "God hates Fags" protesting outside the funerals of dead US Marines.

He is not religious (although he claims to be). What he and is family are, are scam artists. They intentionally try to rile people to provoke a response. When the response is forthcoming they use that to sue the crap out of the person attacking them.

I don't have the link anymore where I read it, but a quick google.
http://kanewj.com/wbc/

When they protest at schools the students are told not to engage in an argument in any way to avoid possible litigation. So far the best way to deal with them is to (a) ignore them or (b) play along with a separate joke protest. This pisses them off.

All that media in the middle east need to show is who this guy is and what he does. He is not in anyway reflective of your typical American.

The only good that has ever come from Phelps actions is the Patriot Guard Riders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Guard_Riders

[edit] appears there is also another pastor doing it.

Genghiz Cohen

You can dig your loved ones out of their bunkers.
It has been called off.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/09/091746/gainesville-officials-to-bill-minister-for-securit/