Help with gaming build :)

Sandvich

Not sure if this should have gone in the budget gaming machine thread or if that's just for showing off. However it did fill me with confidence.

I'm looking to build a decent gaming machine for around €500-600.

By "decent" I mean, can play TF2 and other source games as Valve are complete tossers who make it worse with every update and never bother improving performance. My current laptop could handle Arkham Asylum fairly decently, but TF2 runs like ass. So I'd be looking for a configuration that will work more than any specific element of horsepower.

Though I'll probably be using this more for my multimedia course; rendering video/3d models etc.

I've never put together a computer by myself before and I'm a little scared to even though I'm a relatively advanced user.

Ideally I'd like -

Small form factor, preferably with a good built in PSU so I don't have to dick around with that.
Wireless built in to motherboard
6-8 gigs ram
500+ gig HD
2.4ghz+ CPU
GPU that can handle games on good settings for another year or so - I'd rather get a decent graphics card now and continually upgrade than waste money on an SLI rig that ends up outdated feature wise when new tech comes out. I have a 9500MGS in my current laptop, I'd want something considerably better than that for this build to be worth it.

My current laptop's specs are actually quite good on paper, but I think laptops are just awkward to get working for gaming.

Small form factor is important as the reason I own a laptop is that I move around often(college etc.), my machine I had in college was ridiculously large and heavy. I will probably have to build this at my parents in clare and haul it down to Cork. Since I don't a top of the line rig I'm hoping I can get away with a small case. I'm going to undervolt the CPU too to help cool it.

I need to make sure I have everything though as I'm afraid it'll burn out first time I turn it on. I'm also a bit sceptical that this will end up a waste due to how abysmal the PC gaming market is at the moment, but I think I'm going to need it for college anyway.

Where should I order from?

Solitaire

Hmm... do you need a monitor or OS for this? If the answer is "both" you're gonna be in a world of hurt with that budget And the PSUs that come with cheap cases are dodgy and tend to explode :eek: So you'll actually have far less fuss with an aftermarket model

Also, why on earth would you need 6-8GB RAM?!

Finally, integrated wi-fi on an mITX board increases cost and can cause other issues. Integrated wi-fi on an mATX mobo is a rare luxury feature, but you usually have the spare PCI/e slots to throw something in if you want to keep it internal.

In any case... here's a base mATX build, coming to €525 shipped:



You can use the remaining €75 whatever way you want, but trying to upgrade the GPU to a GTX460 will eat up much more than the "obvious" €35 as you'd need to upgrade the PSU too Given the dearth of cheap yet decent 500-550W units you'll be paying an extra €15-20 for a Superflower 700W or Antec EA650D That would leave you ~€20 for fans or whatever - not enough to upgrade to a quadcore CPU within budget

The base mITX build is smaller... but comes to €595 with shipping:

Sandvich

Hmm... do you need a monitor or OS for this?

.

Nope. Getting a couple of dead pixels on this one so I'll need to replace it eventually but not a big deal right now. I have a spare Windows 7 lying around too, though I think that's only a 32 bit version... that sucks. I can probably get a 64 bit cheap enough.

Also, why on earth would you need 6-8GB RAM?!

Try rendering stuff in After Effects

Also I need everything to be better than my current laptop.

Not enough uses Quad Core right now for it to be essential either(Source games barely use dual core). But have a motherboard that can take it in future would be fairly essential.

Also; don't I need special gel to attach the cooler to the CPU? Or does that come with it?

Solitaire

Stock coolers come with a pad of the stuff pre-applied and ready to go. If you take them off again then on reinstallation you'd need fresh paste though

4GB of reasonably fast DDR3 should be most for most things, if you really need 8GB you'd need to factor in another €70 for most mATX mobos (4 DIMMs) and another ~€85 for the rest and any mITX boards (only 2 DIMMs, so you'd need double-density sticks)... and don't forget to add another €90+ on top of that for the new 64bit OS you'd need to use it all! :eek:

Bear in mind the mATX system is more upgradeable and even has a handle but the mITX system is a lot lighter. Both mobos support quads, although you'd be very tight for power putting even a i5-760 on the mITX system as you're stuck with the 300W PSU

Sandvich

Can I go with 4 gigs to start off with and upgrade it later with these motherboards? The last thing I want is a motherboard I can't add more RAM to. If I'm buying another motherboard later on that'd be so much hassle. I don't intend to throw a load of gear in this, mostly only RAM and swapping out the graphics card and maybe CPU every few years.

Size is probably more of an issue than weight.

Solitaire

There's no issue with size or weight when you have an mITX rig - but you'd have to run your memory single-channel until you could buy a second 4GB module and there'd be minimal upgradeability in the long-term.

With an mATX rig you could easily upgrade components as you go along and there's better cooling on offer, yet while much smaller and lighter than even a midi-tower system they'll still be reasonably bulky and heavy

With an mATX rig similar to the above sample you do have €75 left over to fix one problem right away. You could spend €40 to upgrade the case to a Sugo SG03 and chop off a bit of size and weight. You could blow it all on starting off with a full 8GB of RAM, but then you'd have to replace the CPU later. Similarly you could blow it on a high-cache, quad-core Phenom and then not have enough RAM to utilize it properly. I don't think CUDA helps After Effects but gaming-wise I don't see you needing to replace a GTX460 for a long time - but when you figure in replacing the PSU that's €55 gone.

Sandvich

Both those recommendations only have 32bit processors then?

Is there anyway to go 64 and 6-8 gigs while remaining around the 600 mark? I'd be happy enough with 6 gigs, the extra 2 would be wonderful for after effects. The thing is, when you do a RAM preview in After effects, that eats up RAM. Let's say you have 4 gigs, so you have about 3 gigs max free between Windows and other things After Effects has loaded. I might get about 45 seconds out of HD video out of that depending on the quality. With 6 gigs, I'd have another 2 free so over a minute. Back when I was doing my first project, that would have rendered the whole thing for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM3LwDz_Sxo

Would the extra €75 get me a 64 bit processor and 2 gigs ram?

If I have to go a little over budget, it's not a big deal. 650 is probably my absolute limit though. I just can't justify more than that given how few games there are I actually want to play.

Solitaire

You've got it wrong - virtually any modern CPU is inherently 64-bit. The catch is that without a 64-bit OS running on the system your usable RAM still tops out at 2.75GB (with a 1GB GPU) until you install a 64-bit version of Windows, which is a good €90 worth

Sandvich

I'm just confused with what you said here -

4GB of reasonably fast DDR3 should be most for most things, if you really need 8GB you'd need to factor in another €70 for most mATX mobos (4 DIMMs) and another ~€85 for the rest and any mITX boards (only 2 DIMMs, so you'd need double-density sticks)... and don't forget to add another €90+ on top of that for the new 64bit OS you'd need to use it all!

Surely if I have a 64bit OS there's no problem then?

Are you saying memory normally comes in 2GB sets, and the slots will all be full when I get the machine, so I need to get more expensive Double Density RAM that costs twice as much?

Let's say I already have a 64bit OS or have to buy one anyway how much does the RAM cost for 6 Gigs?

BeciMester

You'll need a 64bit OS even if you want to use 4GB fully. 32bit can handle 4GB all together, meaning system RAM, video RAM, everything.

Memory is normally 2GB a stick, a set would be 2x2GB for roughly €70-80. So if you go mATX (4 memory slots) and want 8GB, 2 of those 2x2GB sets is what you need. With mITX which has 2 memory slots, if you want 8GB you'll need two 4GB sticks which is more expensive than 4 of the 2GB sticks. Oh and you want 4GB or 8GB, not 6: you need an even number of identical RAM sticks for dual channel to work.

Hope it's not too confusing.

Solitaire

If you already had a 64bit OS then RAM would cost ~€150 for 8GB give or take. That's more expensive than anything else going into the machine! :eek:

Sandvich

RAM is really expensive right now

Why is that out of interest? Hasn't really come down in the last few years at all.

AlmightyCushion

Sandvich wrote: »

RAM is really expensive right now

Why is that out of interest? Hasn't really come down in the last few years at all.

It's not really expensive as such but definitely more expensive than it was. Probably just demand out-stripping supply. The big oems like dell and HP are starting to use ddr3 in a lot of their systems so it's harder for you and me to get and therefore more expensive.

marco_polo

Sandvich wrote: »

RAM is really expensive right now

Why is that out of interest? Hasn't really come down in the last few years at all.

While true you could hardly call it cheap, I would say DDR3 is probably less expensive at the moment than at any time in the past year. It is not that long since prices were starting at probably 110 euros and upwards for 4GB up as opposed to about 70 euro and upwards now.

deconduo

Just so you know, you can download the windows 7 64-bit disk and burn it. The activiation key works for both systems 32 and 64 so you're sorted there.

Solitaire

Only if the version the OP has is a full retail version. If its OEM then the key is locked to which version he has, which is 32-bit

AlmightyCushion

Solitaire wrote: »

Only if the version the OP has is a full retail version. If its OEM then the key is locked to which version he has, which is 32-bit

Are you 100% sure on that. I remember talking to someone before who had an oem license for 32 bit and he activated the 64bit using the same key with no issue whatsoever. I could be mistaken though.

Solitaire

Maybe...

deconduo

Nope, even OEM and student versions can be used to install either 32/64 bit versions.

Unregistered.

EDIT: *facepalm*




(hope nobody saw that)

marco_polo

In terms of activation by microsoft the product key is good for either the 32/64 bit versions, that doesn't nescessarly mean it is not against the EULA.

I was under the impression that it was pretty much up to the individual OEM whether or not they will provide and/or support both 32 and 64 bit versions and provide alternative media. (ie your OEM may limit you to 32 bit version, but Microsoft does not seem to imposing any limit on the OEM license beyond prohibiting both 32 and 64 bit installations at the same time. )

The only thing for certain is that nobody seems to know for certain. :pac:

Sandvich

If this is true, then I nearly may as well go for the 8 gigs. It'll round the build out to around 600. I probably won't need to upgrade the RAM for a while then.

marco_polo

Unregistered. wrote: »

EDIT: (hope nobody saw that)

Maybe .... what is your previously impeccable technical reputation worth to you, good sir :pac:

Sandvich

Would I be best off waiting a month or two to see if RAM prices come down?

Sandvich

How's this? Comes to 620 with shipping. Should I wait a month and see if RAM prices come down? Maybe I could get away with a slightly cheaper graphics card? I don't know how many "new" games I'm realistically going to be playing, but I may need the horsepower for rendering.

There's no CPU cooler in there though. Do I not need one? Is the case/mobo enough? I won't be doing any overclocking, though if I decide to later can I strap on a cooler?

Is there anything else I'm missing? I have a monitor, mouse, keyboard, USB soundcard, speakers...

Solitaire

What resolution is your monitor? You can drop down to a HD5750 if its not Full HD...

And it'd be best to get a quad-core CPU if you want to take full advantage of your 8GB RAM during renders

As for CPU cooler, if you're not OCing its not a huge deal. AMD stock coolers are a darn sight better than Intel ones anyway. You could probably survive on an AMD stock cooler even with a mildly OC'd quad

Sandvich

Solitaire wrote: »

What resolution is your monitor? You can drop down to a HD5750 if its not Full HD...

And it'd be best to get a quad-core CPU if you want to take full advantage of your 8GB RAM during renders

As for CPU cooler, if you're not OCing its not a huge deal. AMD stock coolers are a darn sight better than Intel ones anyway. You could probably survive on an AMD stock cooler even with a mildly OC'd quad

No, it's not full HD. Its an awkward resolution of 1440x900.

I use a VGA cable at the moment though with no major issues. This monitor is kind of half monitor half tele, it has HDMI but I don't know if it has DVI.

How much more is a quadcore? I don't know if I can justify the cost right now. Will I be able to upgrade to a quadcore later on though?

Keep in mind everything I'm using should ideally be able to take advantage of the GPU for rendering as well. The main issue is literally how much I can fit in the RAM at once, not so much rendering times, though that'd be great too, it'll only play so many seconds of a render, and then have to load it again. Even if it loads quicker, it still breaks the flow. Basically the amount of video I can "look at" at once, goes with up with the RAM.

Solitaire

From what I've heard AE mostly relies on CPU for renders because as it does the whole thing in RAM any graphics card is woefully short on memory - 1GB per entire GPU as opposed to the 1.7GB+ RAM per core you'll see on a modern 8GB home workstation.

Personally if I was going to focus heavily on AE rather than gaming I'd save a little money on the GPU to get maximum rendering throughput with the CPU and RAM. Besides, even a 512MB HD5750 would eat almost any game alive at 1440*900 - hell, if you see a very cheap HD4770 going second-hand, grab it instead!

Sandvich

I'll also be doing 3dsmax next year as well though - which will be pretty graphics intensive.

Can't find the HD4770 on hardwareversand.de either.

If I can find games actually worth playing that benefit from good graphics(i.e. not Indie games for the most part) then I may as well pay a little extra for the graphics card. Otherwise, a cheaper one will be likely be fine.

Solitaire

HD4770 would be a "stalk Adverts and pray" jobbie at this point Pretty close to the HD5750 and more than capable at 1440*900 but if you see one much cheaper than the HD5750's €100+ pricetag then make it a target of opportunity :D

And unless something's changed recently 3DSMax also uses CPU for rendering work Of course, viewport performance can be GPU-dependent but AFAIK only FirePro and Quadro drivers enable GPU acceleration for that either

Sandvich

I guess I could get away with a lesser graphics card then. But there's too many to choose from.... no idea what I'm looking at any more. Feel old and out of the loop.