Gay Rights Stance Clarification

liah

This is my first and probably last time over here, but I just have a few questions.

I know there's no true "standardized" answer and many of you have wholly different outlooks to the issues I've outlined below, but I want to have a better understanding of this specific opinion.

1) Gays
Can someone make a post detailing the parts of the Bible or other religious texts that have been interpreted as being both God's word and against homosexuality?

Also, I would like to know why, exactly, so many of you (though obviously not all) feel it's wrong? As precisely, concisely, and clearly as possible outline the reasons that lead you to this particular conclusion over any other.

2) Gays Marrying
Pretty much the same as the first, can someone outline the parts of the Bible that forbid gays from marrying? Like repercussions for doing so, the reasons given for why it's forbidden, etc.

And again, I'd like to know the reasons and evidence used to come to the conclusion that gay marriage should not be allowed or accepted, or how it "threatens" traditional family or ideals, or whatever your opinion is.

3) Gays Adopting/Reproducing
Again, Bible verses, or at least the Christian-based reason you feel gays should not be able to adopt.

I've heard a variety of reasons why people don't believe gays should have the rights to have or adopt children, and so far I haven't come across one that's "stuck."

I've heard "the kids'll be made fun of," (kids get made fun of for being fat, ginger, black, brown, short, tall, smelly, quiet, loud, having a funny name, etc. so I'm not sure how other kids saying "nyah nyah your parents are gaay!" is that much different from going "nyah nyah you're poor!" or "nyah nyah you're fat!" or whatever else) which I really don't buy. I've never once met a kid who hasn't been bullied for a variety of reasons at at least one stage in their life.

Another thing, if the straight parents would teach their children tolerance, love, and acceptance, don't you think that that problem would be lessened?

I've also heard the "well you need a mother and a father for proper gender roles" or some other such thing. Well.. why? What about family? An aunt, uncle, grandparent? Or friends? I'm sure the majority of children raised in same-sex homes would have plenty of exposure to whatever gender they need to simply through every day community interaction.

I also don't see why there is no problem with single parents having children but it's so abhorrent for a pair of gay adults to do the same. As long as a kid has both their parents, and they're loving and teach the child about respect, love, forgiveness, and acceptance, does it really matter at all whether they possess a penis or a vagina?


I'm not trying to start anything, and I actually kind of hope my fellow heathens/atheists will stay out of this one and not turn it into a debate .

I'm just looking for personal opinions for my own consideration and to help me understand why people hold these points of view and the reasons/evidence they're based on.

Sorry if I'm coming across as demanding, I'm just trying to make it as short as possible!

alex73

Look, Lets cut to the chase, There is no point trying to bend religion to meet your lifestyle, It won't happen.

To be gay is not a crime a sin on any way. You are a human being who should be respected as any person.

The issue religion has with Homosexuality (and with hetrosexuality) are the acts. I'm am not going to list them out. there are countless examples on the web and other threads here.

So if you are a gay man looking to have a relationship with another man and get married and adopt children.. don't go running looking for approval from the church, its not going to happen. Live your life according to your conscience.

The church teaches and is custodian of faith passed down. Many priests/Bishops are not way good examples of the faith the preach.. But if we look as Christs message his teaching was ""For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate."

He never spoke of Men joining Men and having children.. if its not in his teaching you can forget about the church chaning it.... It will never happen.

You have to make your own decisions and live your life as best you can.. If you can't follow Christ's teachings then follow you conscience.

Wolfe Tone

This looks like an ammo gathering exercise here tbh. You started off well but then you brought in your own opinions which WILL make this into a debate rather than a scripture/fact finding mission.

None the less interesting questions and I would love to see the answers too.

georgieporgy

Liah, you are asking a lot and requesting a concise brief answer!:)

I'm posting some relevant links from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which may answer some of your questions.

Marriage - At the Beginning and the End (1602)

Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman and concludes with the "wedding feast of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7, 9). Scripture speaks extensively of marriage, its mystery, its origin and its purpose. It describes the difficulties caused by sin and the renewal of marriage by Christ.
God's Laws for Marriage (1603)

In creating man and woman, God himself established marriage with its own proper laws. Although customs and laws vary, marriage is not a purely human institution but has some common permanent characteristics. Every culture has some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union "because the well-being of the person and the society depends on a healthy conjugal life" (Second Vatican Council).
All Called to Love (1604)

The mutual love of man and woman is an image of God's unfailing love. God intends man and woman to "Be fruitful and multiply", because mankind has the task to "fill the earth and subdue it" (Gen 1:27).
Leaving All (1605)

From the beginning, God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone." God gave him woman, "flesh of his flesh." She is clearly his equal and helpmate. So, man "leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife" (Gen 2:18-25). Jesus approves this plan of an unbreakable union." "They are no longer two, but one flesh" (Mt 19:6).


I realise this doesn't do justice to all your questions but I don't want to test the patience of other readers with cut and paste. I hope it serves as an introduction in your search.

liah

Thanks for the posts so far guys!

I'm not gathering ammo, honestly. I don't really spend a lot of time debating, at all.. I can't remember the last time, other than one post a few days ago, I actually posted in any kind of religious thread or debate. It's not what I'm interested in. I'm just interested in understanding why people think how they do and the reasons for doing so, so I can kind of have a better grasp of it all.

I don't intend to use it for evil, just for my own peace of mind.

Sorry if it comes across as ammo-gathering; like I said I hope the people from the "other" forum can leave this one alone so it doesn't go down in flames.

philologos

I would personally distinguish between my beliefs and law. It is up for the State to decide how to appropriately legislate over formalising relationships, marriage and adoption. Personally I would hope that they would regard the marriage of a man and a woman to be the best environment for a child to be raised in.

As for my opinion as a Christian. I believe that God created us male and female, and that the appropriate context for sexuality is in a marriage. This would also mean that I don't believe that any pre-marital, extra-marital sexuality is moral. That's how I would personally view it, and this is a separate subject from legislation.

Although people from an atheist perspective on AH and other fora generally would cite from Leviticus as the main opposition to homosexual acts. There are other passages in the New Testament that also give credence to this view. Mainly Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

Personally, I don't think that these acts are any more immoral than anything else that is in violation to God's standard for mankind. I certainly don't believe in putting it on a pedestal. I also strongly oppose the physical, or emotional abuse of homosexuals, as I would any other demographic. The main departure is that I find marriage to be the correct context for sexual expression.

I hope this helps.

louloumc89

You might find it interesting that most gay pride festivals include a prayer service. Couple of days ago Limerick had theirs in St Marys cathedral. Rainbow flag at the alter and all. I was surprised at how tolerant and understanding. At least for me I find that a lot of strong religious folk I know, just put it as one of those dated things that is irrelevant in our society.

My nana has religious pics, statues, alters, everything you could think of, in every room in her house. She goes to mass, prayer groups the whole lot, and when my mam told her I was gay she rang round the family to tell them the good news, about how lucky I was to be so comfortable with my sexuality at such a young age, and how some people go their whole lives not being true to themselves or truely happy.

I personally am always surprised with the understanding. But I suppose it shouldn't be surprising, aren't catholics supposed to be one of the most 'love thy neighbour', 'turn the other cheek', religions out there? I feel it's fruitless to debate the gay topic with religious people, if somebody is really against homosexuality then that's them isn't it, it doesn't really need to be the case. Plenty of very religious folk their who chalk the gay thing up as 'dated' and irrelevant to us today, much like other parts of the bible like facial hair trimming and what not.

philologos

louloumc89 wrote: »

I personally am always surprised with the understanding. But I suppose it shouldn't be surprising, aren't catholics supposed to be one of the most 'love thy neighbour', 'turn the other cheek', religions out there? I feel it's fruitless to debate the gay topic with religious people, if somebody is really against homosexuality then that's them isn't it, it doesn't really need to be the case. Plenty of very religious folk their who chalk the gay thing up as 'dated' and irrelevant to us today, much like other parts of the bible like facial hair trimming and what not.

Not a Catholic but I agree, that Jesus did teach us to love our neighbour. People always forget what He commanded before He said this:

Mark 12:28-29 wrote:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked Him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?". "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord with all your heart with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: 'Love your neighbour as yourself' There is no commandment greater than these".

So yes, one must love ones neighbour as ones self, and one must love God, and remain faithful to Him. Something that I try to do on a daily basis. Loving ones neighbour means seeking what is best for them, and what is best for them is what God thinks is best for us. That seems to me why they would go together.

Christianity is about demonstrating God's values in a world that is often very opposed to them.

Funnily enough 'Love your neighbour as yourself' is actually a direct quotation from Leviticus 19:18

I think in order to love my neighbour, I must also desire for them to love God also.

twinQuins

Jakkass wrote: »

Personally I would hope that they would regard the marriage of a man and a woman to be the best environment for a child to be raised in.

How do you reconcile this with the evidence that there is no difference between children raised by straight or gay couples?

philologos

Morkarleth wrote: »

How do you reconcile this with the evidence that there is no difference between children raised by straight or gay couples?

Other evidence that having mothers and fathers as female and male rolemodels in a childs life is beneficial. I think it's best if we don't turn the thread into my study is bigger than yours type squabbling though.

twinQuins

I'd be curious to see this evidence. My own searches don't turn up much.

This isn't so much "my study is bigger than yours" than "my study is more reliable/less biased than yours".

liah

Can we please not start this? I don't want this to end like that.

philologos

liah wrote: »

Can we please not start this? I don't want this to end like that.

Agreed. Is there anything else you'd like to know in particular about what's been discussed so far?

Truley

louloumc89 wrote: »

My nana has religious pics, statues, alters, everything you could think of, in every room in her house. She goes to mass, prayer groups the whole lot, and when my mam told her I was gay she rang round the family to tell them the good news, about how lucky I was to be so comfortable with my sexuality at such a young age, and how some people go their whole lives not being true to themselves or truely happy.

Your nana sounds awesome!

louloumc89

Truley wrote: »

Your nana sounds awesome!

My nana is awesome!!!! :cool:

irishmotorist

The Catcechism (from the quotes above) seems to mention 'men and women' and the positives from that. Is it assumed that because 'men and men' is not mentioned that the exclusion of mention makes it wrong?

I'm a practicing Catholic but what I would consider to be the Church's attitude towards gays causes me some difficulty. IMO, God created us all in all with all of our features and attributes. I have blue eyes, dark hair etc. and am hetro. I don't think for a second that gays have just decided to be gay just to be different or make a stand of some type. God created them that way and that's how they are.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

Other evidence that having mothers and fathers as female and male rolemodels in a childs life is beneficial. I think it's best if we don't turn the thread into my study is bigger than yours type squabbling though.

Of course, because your studies have never actually been relevant and only comparing apples and oranges.

lmaopml

irishmotorist wrote: »

The Catcechism (from the quotes above) seems to mention 'men and women' and the positives from that. Is it assumed that because 'men and men' is not mentioned that the exclusion of mention makes it wrong?

I'm a practicing Catholic but what I would consider to be the Church's attitude towards gays causes me some difficulty. IMO, God created us all in all with all of our features and attributes. I have blue eyes, dark hair etc. and am hetro. I don't think for a second that gays have just decided to be gay just to be different or make a stand of some type. God created them that way and that's how they are.

Me too. I have a brother in law who is homosexual and I am very attached to him and his partner. They are like my best buddies, lovely lovely people...

I've had a few 'chats' with them about how they felt in Ireland during the 70's, 80's etc. and they felt they had to move away...England and Spain amongst other places that their jobs took them...To be fair, I think even they understand the political and psychological evolution of our society and even other societies is not down to the big bad ole 'Christians'...

My bil is very religious, he attends mass every week and it breaks my heart he never partakes of the sacrament of the Eucharist, but it doesn't break his...lol....He says that he's the one out of step, the one living his life living apart from the church but still a part of it, and he knows that the doors are open..

I think he'll probably be just fine when he stands before God..He never shut him out; he believes wholeheartedly in his mercy, but he would never try to change the word of God..

He just has his relationship...Actually, I'm not somebody who partakes of the Eucharist myself all the time when I know I've been out of touch and done my own thing..Everybody has 'troubles' of some sort, and if we were to lay them all out on the table, we would most likely take our own back..

Being a Christian is more than just wanting to change God's word.....It's about judging how far we are seperating ourselves and how hard we try to be true..

Seaneh

lmaopml wrote: »

Being a Christian is more than just wanting to change God's word.....It's about judging how far we are seperating ourselves and how hard we try to be true..

Sorry, what?

alex73

irishmotorist wrote: »

The Catcechism (from the quotes above) seems to mention 'men and women' and the positives from that. Is it assumed that because 'men and men' is not mentioned that the exclusion of mention makes it wrong?

I'm a practicing Catholic but what I would consider to be the Church's attitude towards gays causes me some difficulty. IMO, God created us all in all with all of our features and attributes. I have blue eyes, dark hair etc. and am hetro. I don't think for a second that gays have just decided to be gay just to be different or make a stand of some type. God created them that way and that's how they are.

The only attitude the church as towards a Gay person is one of up most respect. The Church does not reject or condemn them in anyway. The church's teaching is on the acts!. Sex as an act between a married Man and Woman.. its been the church's teaching since the beginning.

The church is the custodian of Faith, its not at liberty to change it.

I think being a Gay man alone is very difficult, so to have a partner or someone to share your life with is understandable. But the gay current in our society that supports gay rights does not make many gay men any happier. One man in his late 30's said he had sex with over 200 men in his 20's, and he said man gay men he knows did the same. The dream to find the perfect gay partner is not a reality to many.. Same can also be said to heterosexual men who have sex with women. For every Gay man who says he is happy and in a stable relationship with a partner there are 9 others who are not.

God knows that in practice many priests/Bishops have done far worse sexual crimes that many honest gay people. Gay rights movements attached the Pope for his stance on Gay marriage/Gay rights.

But at the end of the day.... the Central faith of the catholic church is not what the Pope says.. its the Faith he is custodian of. He does not have the power to change the teachings of the Catholic Church.

prinz

liah wrote: »

This is my first and probably last time over here, but I just have a few questions.

Please come back if you have more questions or even just to read some the threads. There are many people in certain fora here who will tell you what the RCC "teachings" are, and more broadly Christian. Frequently worng however.

liah wrote: »

1) Gays
Can someone make a post detailing the parts of the Bible or other religious texts that have been interpreted as being both God's word and against homosexuality?

Posters have referred to the Bible already outlining this. The important thing is that homosexuality as an orientation isn't something that will land you in 'hell' or anything of the sort. The practicing of homosexual acts is not deemed good in the eyes of God, just like heterosexual adultery etc. There is an often thrown accusation that God/Christians hate gays. BS. God loves us all, even with out faults, weaknesses and sins.

liah wrote: »

Also, I would like to know why, exactly, so many of you (though obviously not all) feel it's wrong? As precisely, concisely, and clearly as possible outline the reasons that lead you to this particular conclusion over any other.

I don't feel homosexuality itseld is wrong. I do believe there are many wrongs being perpetrated in the name of 'homosexuality' or gay culture however. The diversion of average number of sexual partners between hetero- and homo- sexual people speaks volumes.

liah wrote: »

2) Gays Marrying
Pretty much the same as the first, can someone outline the parts of the Bible that forbid gays from marrying? Like repercussions for doing so, the reasons given for why it's forbidden, etc. And again, I'd like to know the reasons and evidence used to come to the conclusion that gay marriage should not be allowed or accepted, or how it "threatens" traditional family or ideals, or whatever your opinion is.

Again the Bible IMO outlines the ideal. Sex within a marriage, a marriage being man and woman. Outside of religion there are many reasons to be apprehensive about gay marriage. Many people have no issues with civil union, partnerships etc or accompanying rights equal to heterosexual marriage before the state. If gay marriage is recognised by the State then gay couples are free to go get married by a registrar etc. The quesiton really tends to boil down to whether a particular denomination should be forced into conducting gay marriage ceremonies.

liah wrote: »

3) Gays Adopting/Reproducing
Again, Bible verses, or at least the Christian-based reason you feel gays should not be able to adopt. I've heard a variety of reasons why people don't believe gays should have the rights to have or adopt children, and so far I haven't come across one that's "stuck."

Once again plenty of reasons outside of religion to be against this. The problem particularly in this country is that family rights and marital rights are inextricably linked. So until they are untangled Gay marriage is going to be a thorny issue. Many people would support gay marriage but be against gay adoption/'reproduction?'. From a social point of view there are arguments against it. Btw gay people in this country can adopt. A gay couple cannot jointly adopt. In this there is no difference between the sexual orientations whatsoever as an unmarried hetero couple cannot jointly adopt either.

liah wrote: »

Another thing, if the straight parents would teach their children tolerance, love, and acceptance, don't you think that that problem would be lessened?

Of course it would. However tolerance is a two way street. Tolerance, love and acceptance does not mean someone has to support another's decisions in life.

liah wrote: »

I've also heard the "well you need a mother and a father for proper gender roles" or some other such thing. Well.. why? What about family? An aunt, uncle, grandparent? Or friends? I'm sure the majority of children raised in same-sex homes would have plenty of exposure to whatever gender they need to simply through every day community interaction.

You are sure. There are plenty who don't share your optimism. It actually frequently arises in heterosexual homes too btw, particularly where parents have separated/divorced, and in heterocouples where due dignity and respect is not given between partners.

liah wrote: »

I also don't see why there is no problem with single parents having children but it's so abhorrent for a pair of gay adults to do the same.

Single parents can have kids. That does not make it an ideal that Christians or anyone else has to stand over and equate with a hetero married family.

mehfesto

That'd probably the best answer I've seen to that question from a Christian POV, Prinz.

I find, as an 'outsider' here, your posts are the easiest to understand - you don't preach, you seem to just answer honestly.