The Pat Kenny Show Thread

Callan57

And the woman with the 4 kids who doesn't want anything to do with the father/s she 'wanted to bring them up on her own' .... fine go do it on your own then and don't expect me and every other taxpayer in the state to carry you and your 4 kids.

I don't particularly like Paddy O'Gorman & his maudlin style of questioning but I have to admit he highlights an attitude in certain sections of Irish society which is badly in need of being exposed and it's high time the law abiding, tax paying workers in this country realized they are being taken for total mugs by a system designed to pander to the whims of these wasters.

How many working, tax paying parents are likely to fork out €400 for a communion suit I wonder?

artful_codger

Did Ruari Quinn just say that 80% of the Education budget goes on Pay and Pensions !?!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

JonathanAnon

^Yeah I heard that figure before...

If this woman says "well" one more time.. :mad:

artful_codger

if Law graduates are going into Teaching, you know there's something very wrong with the pay structures of the public sector.

Callan57

I had to laugh at Pat suggesting teaching was a vocation and you couldn't do it it you hadn't the vocation ... we all know people who couldn't teach to save their lives but they are still in their jobs, under performing & costing parents a fortune in grinds.

My niece's Career Guidance teacher told her class that there were 3 reasons for doing teaching, June, July & August ........ vocation me eye! The vast majority of teachers are in it for the money, the holidays and the short hours and to say otherwise is poppycock.

artful_codger

Callan57 wrote: »

I had to laugh at Pat suggesting teaching was a vocation

yip, he also referred to teaching as a "profession" a few times. It's not a profession - teachers are not the same as doctors, lawyers, accountants, or pharmacists, although they clearly see themselves as some sort of intellectual elite.

Technocentral

Callan57 wrote: »

I had to laugh at Pat suggesting teaching was a vocation and you couldn't do it it you hadn't the vocation ... we all know people who couldn't teach to save their lives but they are still in their jobs, under performing & costing parents a fortune in grinds.

My niece's Career Guidance teacher told her class that there were 3 reasons for doing teaching, June, July & August ........ vocation me eye! The vast majority of teachers are in it for the money, the holidays and the short hours and to say otherwise is poppycock.

You're so wrong, teachers are amongst the most precious citizens of this country, they are worth at least twice the 500 million in allowances they get, imagine how traumatized you would be if you had to work from 9 to 3.30 and were asked to watch a yard for a whole 30 mins without a monetary incentive, or if you had a science degree but weren't teaching it and that allowance was taken off you?

Einhard

artful_codger wrote: »

yip, he also referred to teaching as a "profession" a few times. It's not a profession - teachers are not the same as doctors, lawyers, accountants, or pharmacists, although they clearly see themselves as some sort of intellectual elite.

I'm just after finishing a teaching course. The vast majority of students in the course had Master degrees, and several had Phds. I don't think anybody is claiming that teachers are some form of intellectual elite, but there's really no need for the type of denigration which has crept into over the last few posts.

artful_codger

Einhard wrote: »

I'm just after finishing a teaching course. The vast majority of students in the course had Master degrees, and several had Phds.

how is that even a point? the vast majority of Science or Business graduates have a degree, masters or phd. You want a pat on the back and an allowance for obtaining a formal qualification? oh wait, of course you do.

JonathanAnon

Jim Power is on the boards of two schools?? I hope he is not in charge of any investments.

These teachers give me a pain in my a$$. One of the reason the Government is afraid to offer teachers full time positions is that when they become permanent staff they can then never be fired unless they shoot one of the students.. So they can blame their unions for this as well as the Government.

Additional qualifications are completely irrelevant and should not be rewarded.. This would be considered as being "overqualified" in the private sector and you would either not be given the job or just not rewarded for this in you paypacket..

Callan57

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Jim Power is on the boards of two schools?? I hope he is not in charge of any investments.

These teachers give me a pain in my a$$. One of the reason the Government is afraid to offer teachers full time positions is that when they become permanent staff they can then never be fired unless they shoot one of the students.. So they can blame their unions for this as well as the Government.

Additional qualifications are completely irrelevant and should not be rewarded.. This would be considered as being "overqualified" in the private sector and you would either not be given the job or just not rewarded for this in you paypacket..

Absolutely agree .... there are people working in call centres with degrees & masters .... unless the qualification is relevant & adds value to their day to day job I don't see why a teacher gets an extra allowance for it. Or were these allowances simply a way to increasing the pay of teachers without appearing to be a pay rise ... more smoke & mirrors? Same slight of hand as the politicians expenses :mad:

Anyway, why do teachers get so much prime air time for their annual whinge fest .... no other sector of workers get this amount of air time? :eek:

artful_codger

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Additional qualifications are completely irrelevant and should not be rewarded.. This would be considered as being "overqualified" in the private sector and you would either not be given the job or just not rewarded for this in you paypacket..

sure you only need to walk into the nearest restaurant or coffee shop to find an eastern european person with a Masters degree. It's not an automatic entitlement to a high salary.
My own leaving cert career guidance was given by a middle aged Nun who never had a job in her life, and my psychometric test result stated that i'd be suited to be an assistant manager of a Warehouse lol. That was from a school which felt it appropriate to show us a video of an abortion in religion class back in the mid 90's.

Gin Fizz

I listened to the show today. I thought the teachers didn't make a great case though. They argued that they had to take on a lot of extra duties but I know I wouldn't survive in my job if I didn't take on extra work

Callan57

Gin Fizz wrote: »

I listened to the show today. I thought the teachers didn't make a great case though. They argued that they had to take on a lot of extra duties but I know I wouldn't survive in my job if I didn't take on extra work

Instead of getting the kids to do work experience it might be an idea to get some of the teachers to do some work experience in the private sector ... it would definitely be an eye opener for most of them

Gin Fizz

I think they did have it good for a long time but I do pity the new teachers joining the profession now

Technocentral

Gin Fizz wrote: »

I think they did have it good for a long time but I do pity the new teachers joining the profession now

Well they can try their luck in the private sector like the majority of us if they don't like it.

delaad

artful_codger wrote: »

yip, he also referred to teaching as a "profession" a few times. It's not a profession - teachers are not the same as doctors, lawyers, accountants, or pharmacists, although they clearly see themselves as some sort of intellectual elite.

You dont have to be a member of an intellectual elite to be professional. Wayne Rooney is a professional footballer......

To be professional, or a member of a profession, you simply have to set yourself up as an expert in your line of work.

Btw, surprising that you don't include "Professors" in your list of professionals that "teachers are not the same as", .....but then again, maybe not!

artful_codger

delaad wrote: »

You dont have to be a member of an intellectual elite to be professional. Wayne Rooney is a professional footballer......

To be professional, or a member of a profession, you simply have to set yourself up as an expert in your line of work.

Btw, surprising that you don't include "Professors" in your list of professionals that "teachers are not the same as", .....but then again, maybe not!

a professional is not the same as a profession, Rooney is a professional (i.e paid) footballer as opposed to an amateur footballer. That has nothing to do with jobs vs professions.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profession

Are you saying that a university academic is comparable to, say, a geography teacher who teaches the lifecycle of a frog? i don't understand the second point you're making.

Yakuza

artful_codger wrote: »

yip, he also referred to teaching as a "profession" a few times. It's not a profession - teachers are not the same as doctors, lawyers, accountants, or pharmacists, although they clearly see themselves as some sort of intellectual elite.

artful_codger wrote: »

Are you saying that a university academic is comparable to, say, a geography teacher who teaches the lifecycle of a frog? i don't understand the second point you're making.

I would regard teaching as a profession. It requires a primary degree and / or a Diploma to be able to teach. As in all things, there is a spectrum of what can be considered a profession; it's not black or white. Some professions certainly are more specialised (brain surgeon, quantum mechanics lecturer) that require more training / research / education, but teaching is certainly in that spectrum. If some form of training / study or level of education is required, it's pretty much a profession in my book. You don't have to be a member of the "intellectual elite" (your words) to be member of a profession.

You can't compare a teacher to being a shop assistant or street sweeper - do you?

Dirigent

I had to laugh at Francis's suggestion of using new-build hotels as jails. I remember staying in one a few years ago, you could hear conversations from not just the room next door, but from the room next to that!

artful_codger

Yakuza wrote: »

As in all things, there is a spectrum of what can be considered a profession; it's not black or white.

i agree with that point, there is no hard and fast definition for a profession, except that it generally requires years of post graduate formal training, professional accreditation, and expertise in a specific area. Teachers don't have expertise in a subject they're teaching, they could be making things from pipe cleaner and sticky tape one day, and teaching 5 times tables the next day. As mentioned earlier, teachers can come from Law or other B.A courses and make a last minute career choice to get into teaching because they can't get into their specialised field. In terms of expertise of the subject they teach, I would say primary/secondary school teachers have more in common with a shop assistant than an academic (e.g a Professor).

dambarude

artful_codger wrote: »

i agree with that point, there is no hard and fast definition for a profession, except that it generally requires years of post graduate formal training, professional accreditation, and expertise in a specific area. Teachers don't have expertise in a subject they're teaching, they could be making things from pipe cleaner and sticky tape one day, and teaching 5 times tables the next day. As mentioned earlier, teachers can come from Law or other B.A courses and make a last minute career choice to get into teaching because they can't get into their specialised field. In terms of expertise of the subject they teach, I would say primary/secondary school teachers have more in common with a shop assistant than an academic (e.g a Professor).

Primary teachers are professionals in the area of children's learning, and how best it can be facilitated in a variety of subjects. Secondary teachers most certainly are experts in their chosen subjects, combined with knowledge of pedagogy. You obviously have a very dim view of teachers. Would you regard physiotherapy or occupational therapy as a profession? Both of those only require an undergraduate degree.

Teachers require accreditation by the Teaching Council, have to uphold annual registration, and CPD will soon be mandatory (though most teachers are doing it now anyway).

I'm glad the PK show has drawn attention to some of the misconceptions that are out there re allowances and teacher hours.

Yakuza

Wow - sad story from that bloke. I hope he gets to meet his kids again, his ex-wife sounds like a right weapon. It would appear that parental abduction law (and attitudes) are weighted against the father.

artful_codger

dambarude wrote: »

Secondary teachers most certainly are experts in their chosen subjects, combined with knowledge of pedagogy.

really? i was taught Computers in secondary school up to the junior cert. Not one line of code was written, not one lesson in the use of operating systems, networks, hardware, nothing. All we did was boot up Wordperfect and save some files - for two or three years. You say they're experts in the subjects they're teaching. Perhaps you need to re-read the definition of expertise. Knowing how to set up a bunsen burner and boil some liquids, or sketching the diagram of a cell straight from book to blackboard does not make one a scientist, and i would even disagree that teachers have an expertise in 'teaching', because it's rote learning all the way in our education system, no one-on-one supervision, no continuous assesment, precious little project work, and no career guidance. The perceptions that teachers have of themselves is way different from the reality.

dambarude

I've several issues with what you've said, but I'm not going into it here. It's totally off topic. Do you mind if I PM you instead?

artful_codger

no problem.

JonathanAnon

Why on Earth arent ALL teachers given Career Guidance training when they are studying for their H Dip? It's not quantum physics, a lot of it is common sense.

JonathanAnon

Tina Leonard .. the chocolate teapot of the broadcasting world.

P. Breathnach

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Tina Leonard .. the chocolate teapot of the broadcasting world.

And the weekly mindless dissing starts again.

JonathanAnon

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And the weekly mindless dissing starts again.

Dont you mean the mindless defence of a poor contributor?