Is This Unreasonable?

copacetic · 11-09-2010 2:16pm

Distorted wrote: »

Can I say once again that there is no problem with the electrics. They are PAT tested every year. The circuit breaker is meant to be activated in these circumstances. Do you all have ancient wiring systems or something? If tenants do not hoover regularly, dust builds up which tends to cause light bulbs to fail.

No, we have decent wiring and also an understanding of it. Which you appear to be severly lacking in since you believe a blown bulb should trip mcb 'to prevent fire'.

beeno67 · 11-09-2010 4:10pm

Distorted wrote: »

Can I say once again that there is no problem with the electrics. They are PAT tested every year. The circuit breaker is meant to be activated in these circumstances. Do you all have ancient wiring systems or something? If tenants do not hoover regularly, dust builds up which tends to cause light bulbs to fail.

If the fuse trips every time a bulb goes then you have a problem with the electrics despite what you believe or what your electrician told you. It may be a very minor problem but it is still faulty.

daltonm · 12-09-2010 10:35am

ash23 wrote: »

You're missing mine. OPs tenant wasn't out of line re: the heating or the lock on the bathroom.
She may have been over reacting about the lights but sounds like she was more clueless that over the top, even judging by what the electrician said.

But if his attitude that complaining about lack of heating and privacy is "moaning" and that it's reasonable to expect someone to wait 2 weeks for a lock on a shared bathroom just because he doesn't feel it's a priority, then he's the one who has high expectations of his tenants.

One thing about being a tenant is you can't change anything in the property, no painting, no hooks in walls and no new locks on doors.
Had she toddled off to the DIY shop and put a new lock on the door and deducted it from the rent, he'd have given out i'd imagine.

I think it's you and some others here that are missing the point to be honest.
In regards to your morbid fear of electricity - you seem to think that this is a justifiable reason to call out your LL? It is not. Actually you go as far as to say that he would rather have you and your fear than not - I take it from this that had he not jumped to your demand that you would have left?

I have a morbid fear of heights and using your logic I should call my LL to climb up on a chair and change my lightbulb!

I don't mean to be rude but why didn't you call your mammy or Daddy? Your b/f or a friend?

In regards to the issue of the lock on the bathroom door - who broke it? When was it broke? Why wasn't it reported? Why would she have deducted the lock from the rent? The lock was in good working order when they moved in - was it wear and tear, which the LL would be responsible for, but rough treatment, inappropriate use - the tenants are responsible not the LL.

Tenants are obliged to report any breakages as they occur, not reporting it and then lumping it in with other faults and expecting the LL to simply drop everything when it was NOT an emergency is simply unacceptable at the best of times, but the LL was on holiday and he rightly viewed it as a non emergency situation.

Also it wasn't a shared bathroom, it was an alternative bathroom which was suitable for use - the lock was broken but this wasn't a problem when two tenants were in the apartment, but it suddenly became a problem when there was one?

This tenant simply expected the LL to jump at the click of her fingers and when he didn't she threw a strop and walked.

As a woman it really irritates me to see women so hapless and helpless in basic life situations. Bulbs broken, heating not working (in the middle of summer) a lock broken (by the tenants) on a bathroom door and demanding privacy from the landlord when on her own in the apartment?
Really, should this woman ever buy her own house then she will be in for a shock - what will she do in these situations?

Having a landlord is not a reason to render anyone incapable of carrying out small tasks and using logic and reason.

And yes, a lightbulb and a lock on a bathroom door are small tasks.

Another thing, your definition of a dream tenant? So you pay your rent on time and look after the place - as you should, because it is your legal obligation not a choice.

You say you had issues and are moving out, which is your right if the landlord is not repairing things - this landlord did his best and it wasn't good enough or fast enough for the tenant so she left, as was her right.

There are bad tenants and bad landlords, that is a fact of life but some of the comments to this landlord are simply out of order.

tara73 · 12-09-2010 11:10am

read this thread and wondering why people searching for either the OP or the tenant to be the 'guilty person'. for me it seems they were both not acting completely approbriate.
but after reading the facts, I think the OP has a strong point with the assumption that she intended to leave and because of that was making big stuff out of relatively small things.

heating not working in beginning of august isn't that dramatic and she should have acknowledged that he already arranged to fix it and she could have waited the 10 days and if nothing happened after that date she could have gone to further action.
to call the LL to change a lightbulb is ridiculous. And he explained here several times there's nothing wrong with the electricity.

calling a LL after 6 in the evening if it's not an emergency is in my point of view not approbriate either.

I think the LL could have done anything and it wouldn't been enough, she wanted to complain to have a reason to leave.

Don't know why you're always unlucky with your tenants, hard to say over a few informations and not knowing you or any other people involved.
But it's always good to do some self reflection as well...:)

astrofool · 12-09-2010 10:11pm

For those complaining about the circuit tripping when a bulb blows, please read this:
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/bulbs.htm

Are any of the complainers electricians? (I'm not).

iguana · 13-09-2010 12:11am

astrofool wrote: »

For those complaining about the circuit tripping when a bulb blows, please read this:
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/bulbs.htm

Are any of the complainers electricians? (I'm not).

That seems to back up what I've found in properties with trip switches.

When a bulb blows, 99% of the time the fuse for the lighting circuit will blow or trip also. This makes the problem seem rather bigger than it actually is. The reason for a blowing lamp tripping an MCB is that the lamp element gets thinner during its life to the point where it breaks at the thinnest point, this point will melt just before failure. The resistance of the overheating element will momentarily be very low and a current surge is caused, this is picked up by MCB's but generally not fuses.

the_syco · 13-09-2010 1:05am

Graces7 wrote: »

It was a very.. basic house we took when the previous one flooded. No central heating. An immersion heater; night storage heaters we never used because of the cost.

Gotta say, it sucks, but your suffering was due to your own penny-pinching, not the landlords.

Graces7 wrote: »

We needed coal and gas desperately; he refused to help and so did others; so fiinally we drove icily down ourselves to fetch supplies and had to be pushed the last mile.

The LL rents the house to you. He doesn't need to supply coal and gas to you, unless it says so in the contract.

=-=

Lived in a place for 6 months, in Lakelands, Naas, Co. Kildare. The place had a heater, but it would drink £500 of oil in a month after minimal use. We copped on that the pipe had probably burst, but it being underground, we didn't know for sure. Looking back, I should have replaced the pipe myself, or gotten someone to do it for me, and then inform the landlord about it.

We ended up heating the living room with some coal every night, and running into our beds with hats on to escape the cold. When you got out of bed, the chill would wake you fairly lively. Heck, outside was usually warmer.

I wasn't paying much in the way of rent, and the lads I lived with were great craic. If I had planned on spending more than 6 months there, I'd have probably walked, but meh, it did the job. Next time I viewed a place, I did so on a cold day in the evening, when the lights and radiators were on.

My point: the LL didn't need to provide us with coal, never mind the oil at the time, so thinking that the LL should get you coal because you didn't have money to pay for the electric storage heaters doesn't really hold up.

Graces7 wrote: »

Added a few more to ignore....

Holy fúcking christ, you don't learn. You have been in sh|tty places, and yet you never learn. The saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" applies to you. Nearly every place you've been in has had some momentousness f**k-up or other, and yet you still do not check the place out before you move in. I do hope you didn't know that storage heaters were dear before you moved in, and that you were naive, as otherwise the mind would boggle to much :eek:

Distorted · 13-09-2010 9:58am

iguana wrote: »

That seems to back up what I've found in properties with trip switches.

At last, some people will common sense! And not everyone is pursuing their hidden agenda of "all landlords are evil and should pay me to live in their property" or "all landlords should provide a carer service to me as well". My agenda is of course, be wary of tenants without references - coming to an apartment near you soon! (she's still on the lookout...). Oh, and if you don't give proper notice, you will lose your deposit.

ash23 · 13-09-2010 10:21am

Distorted wrote: »

The assumptions people make astound me. Actually the "student hovels" aren't in Ireland and are at the luxury end of the market and let to lets just say rather aristocratic tenants. They also have HMO licenses and meet every standard in the book, way over and above anything in Ireland. And I have to say, despite the wealth of the families these students come from, they are invariably polite, well mannered and considerate to deal with. They are also more independent, able to do basic things for themselves, such as change lightbulbs and don't seem to be spoilt brats who demand and expect to be served as if by a servant. Ironic really. You would think that they would be the most demanding of all but they very rarely cause me any problems, and over the years I have had various members of the same families.

"Student hovels" - oh dear.

As regards the smaller apartment, it was my home not that long ago and really is done to a high standard. And I have and will evict any tenant who is rude to me and complains excessively. That is not a good tenant. It runs at a loss anyway and if it makes a bigger loss, its all the more for me to offset against tax, and quite frankly that tenant was going to cost me more each month in various joiners, plumbers and electricians that she demanded unnecessarily each month than she was paying in rent!

However I've had no problem filling the room, with a tenant from overseas this time.

Errr, I actually made that "assumption" based on your OP where you said

2 are let to students and beyond general untidyness

You were the one who said the others were untidy. My comments on student hovels come from my own experiences as a student combined with the fact that I know students are higher risk, many insurers will not cover a property let to students. And also, student accomodation in Ireland does tend to be cheaper. Most upper end apartments etc will not accept students.
Seeing as this is an Irish forum, I was basing the reply on student accomodation in Ireland.

daltonm wrote:

I think it's you and some others here that are missing the point to be honest.
In regards to your morbid fear of electricity - you seem to think that this is a justifiable reason to call out your LL? It is not. Actually you go as far as to say that he would rather have you and your fear than not - I take it from this that had he not jumped to your demand that you would have left?

I have a morbid fear of heights and using your logic I should call my LL to climb up on a chair and change my lightbulb!

I don't mean to be rude but why didn't you call your mammy or Daddy? Your b/f or a friend?

Not, I called him and explained what had happened and explained the bayonette was stuck (practically melted) into the electrical socket and I was worried there was a more serious problem. In 28 years I've never had it happen that I flip a switch and get covered in shattered glass from a light bulb. He said he'd have a look and he did. I rarely call for anything else so he was happy enough to check it out.
I think there's a vast difference between a bulb exploding with a bang (not normal) and a bulb expiring.

As for why I didn't call mam or dad or bf or a friend?
Well I'm not paying any of them 700 quid a month. And I'm not worried that there is an electrical fault in any of their properties. I don't live near my parents, I don't have a boyfriend.I'm a single parent so well used to looking after myself and others. I usually fix things myself but yes, in this case, the exploding bulb had me worried that there may be something more serious at play. Maybe it was slightly irrational but when you've never experienced something happening and you aren't qualified in electrics, you tend to assume exploding electrical appliances are not normal.

In regards to the issue of the lock on the bathroom door - who broke it? When was it broke? Why wasn't it reported? Why would she have deducted the lock from the rent? The lock was in good working order when they moved in - was it wear and tear, which the LL would be responsible for, but rough treatment, inappropriate use - the tenants are responsible not the LL.

Isn't it up to the LL to check? If he had called and looked at the lock and it was broken from wear and tear then he would have fixed it. If it had been damaged then he could have made them fix it. The issue is that he wasn't willing to call for 2 weeks.

Tenants are obliged to report any breakages as they occur, not reporting it and then lumping it in with other faults and expecting the LL to simply drop everything when it was NOT an emergency is simply unacceptable at the best of times, but the LL was on holiday and he rightly viewed it as a non emergency situation.

She was not usually using this shared bathroom (thats the impression given by the OP). She had to use this bathroom because it had the electric shower in it and the heating was broken. Upon using it she discovered the lock was broken and told the OP.

Also it wasn't a shared bathroom, it was an alternative bathroom which was suitable for use - the lock was broken but this wasn't a problem when two tenants were in the apartment, but it suddenly became a problem when there was one?

It was a common area bathroom in a shared apartment which she had not had to use prior to that.

This tenant simply expected the LL to jump at the click of her fingers and when he didn't she threw a strop and walked.

Nope, she asked him to fix yet another thing that was broken in her apartment (having been told she'd to wait 10 days for heating to be fixed) and was told to wait 2 weeks.
I would think she was probably just thinking that when things break in that place the landlord isn't bothered hurrying to fix them.

As a woman it really irritates me to see women so hapless and helpless in basic life situations. Bulbs broken, heating not working (in the middle of summer) a lock broken (by the tenants) on a bathroom door and demanding privacy from the landlord when on her own in the apartment?
Really, should this woman ever buy her own house then she will be in for a shock - what will she do in these situations?

It has nothing to do with her being a woman.

Another thing, your definition of a dream tenant? So you pay your rent on time and look after the place - as you should, because it is your legal obligation not a choice.

And his end of the bargain is maintaining the property. I am a dream tenant because I stick to my end of things. He was a dream landlord because he was fairly good at sticking to his end of the deal. I moved out though because I found a cheaper place which was more convenient.

You say you had issues and are moving out, which is your right if the landlord is not repairing things - this landlord did his best and it wasn't good enough or fast enough for the tenant so she left, as was her right.

Yes, exactly. She was well within her rights to expect things to be fixed promptly. As am I. And they aren't so I'm moving. As did she. But this doesn't mean that the LL is right to act like she's a prissy little madam who expects too much. he, as a landlord, has his end of the bargain to deal with. If he doesn't like being responsible for fixing things in the apartment he lets out, he shouldn't be a landlord.

There are bad tenants and bad landlords, that is a fact of life but some of the comments to this landlord are simply out of order.

And some of his comments about his tenant were out of order.

Distorted · 13-09-2010 12:52pm

I do think referring to someone's home as a "hovel" is fairly rude actually. Particuarly when you have no evidence to back up your insults. I am also pretty sure that the type of student accommodation I provide to students exists in Dublin too. Students can make very good tenants as they have a genuine, good reason to be renting property.

The bathroom was a shared one, shared between her and the other tenant. She was free to use it if she wanted a bath instead of a shower.

10 days is within most reasonable people's limits of fixing things promptly. I am not contracted to provide an instant repair service, nor a perfect apartment. If the delay were a month, then I could understand some of the more ridiculous comments above. And its cost her her deposit. She signed a contract, she did not stick to it. She announced that she was going to stop paying her rent FOUR DAYS after the central heating broke. It was clearly an excuse. She is fortunate I am not sueing her for the remaining 3 months rental.

As for the burst bulb exploding, which you describe above. It has happened to me in my own home. I simply switched off the electricity supply, removed the bulb, replaced it with a new one, flipped up the trip switch in the fuse box and switched the electricity back on. And I have a morbid fear of being burnt to death. It simply didn't occur to me to wait until my boyfriend came back home (and yes, I am female), it was a simple enough thing to fix myself. My other option would have been to wait and pay for an electrician to come out, since I have no landlord to run around after me.

As I say, a lot of people seem to have a not so hidden agenda against landlords (are they jealous that they are not property owners themselves?). I don't really want tenants like this, its cheaper having a property empty or under-occupied than dealing with bad tenants. In legal terms, a tenancy is not a contract for services, but a contract for property provided to a reasonable service. You can bleat on as much as you like about how you are paying for a service, but you are not - you are paying for a property with certain features provided in it. Thats why there is no hard and fast rule as to how long a problem should take to be fixed - it is what is reasonable in the circumstances. And no court would hold a tenant entitled to leave 4 days after central heating broke down, nor 10. She breached the tenancy agreement; I did not. And I know the generic of tenants I'm now avoiding, although I will not describe it on here.

ash23 · 13-09-2010 1:14pm

Distorted wrote: »

I do think referring to someone's home as a "hovel" is fairly rude actually. Particuarly when you have no evidence to back up your insults. I am also pretty sure that the type of student accommodation I provide to students exists in Dublin too. Students can make very good tenants as they have a genuine, good reason to be renting property.

Like I said, just going on my own experiences of student places. It was said about the students being untidy. Hence my conclusion.
By the way, had a look on daft at properties in Dublin. When you sort by price ascending, the first couple of pages specify *student accomodation* and ads are written to appeal to students (near xyz college). When you go by price descending, the first few pages all refuse rent allowance. The odd ones specify professionals only. A lot "nicer" places, the landlords won't let to rent allowance recipients or students. Maybe it's different where you have your student properties but thats pretty common in Ireland. Hovel may have been an excessive term but it was hyperbole.

Also, if the other places you rent out and have no issues with are abroad and the only one you have trouble with is in Ireland, maybe it's Irish tenants and their expectations. Which resulted (imo) from inflated rental prices.

The bathroom was a shared one, shared between her and the other tenant. She was free to use it if she wanted a bath instead of a shower.

But she was using the shower and was not aware of the bathroom lock being broken until she was forced to use the main bathroom due to the lack of heating. I'm assuming she had an en-suite with a shower which she mainly used until the heating went and she needed to use the main bathroom going on the description of circumstances?

10 days is within most reasonable people's limits of fixing things promptly. I am not contracted to provide an instant repair service, nor a perfect apartment. If the delay were a month, then I could understand some of the more ridiculous comments above.

But 2 weeks is a fairly long wait to have something minor looked at.

And its cost her her deposit. She signed a contract, she did not stick to it.

So whats the problem? She decided to move out and it cost her the deposit. Isn't that the purpose of the deposit?

She announced that she was going to stop paying her rent FOUR DAYS after the central heating broke. It was clearly an excuse. She is fortunate I am not sueing her for the remaining 3 months rental.

You are speculating that it was an excuse. And it wouldn't be worth suing her for 3 months rent. You have her deposit and a new tenant.

As for the burst bulb exploding, which you describe above. It has happened to me in my own home. I simply switched off the electricity supply, removed the bulb, replaced it with a new one, flipped up the trip switch in the fuse box and switched the electricity back on. And I have a morbid fear of being burnt to death. It simply didn't occur to me to wait until my boyfriend came back home (and yes, I am female), it was a simple enough thing to fix myself. My other option would have been to wait and pay for an electrician to come out, since I have no landlord to run around after me.

Again, what does it matter who is female. I'm not saying I would run to a man for help. My landlord is actually female but her husband calls for maintenance issues. I didn't call him. I called her. In my own home I would have called an electrician.

See, what I don't get is, would the landlords here prefer that tenants ignored problems and didn't call? Had there been a problem with the electrics when I called and there was a fire because I ignored it, would that be better?
I call not only for myself but to let the landlord know there is a problem with the house. Be it a leak or an electrical problem or a broken appliance.
And also because I don't want to be accused of neglecting to inform them that there is a problem if it gets worse.
If they choose to call and have a look, great. It saves any aggro over who is responsible.
In my own experiences, most come when called if they think there's a problem which may escalate. For the issues they don't deem serious, they sort or ignore. And in turn I stay or move on at the end of the lease.

As I say, a lot of people seem to have a not so hidden agenda against landlords (are they jealous that they are not property owners themselves?).

I own a property also. And one of the lovely things about renting is that I don't have to deal with broken things. One of the negatives is that I do not own the property and my rental money is not paying off a mortgage.

I don't really want tenants like this, its cheaper having a property empty or under-occupied than dealing with bad tenants. In legal terms, a tenancy is not a contract for services, but a contract for property provided to a reasonable service. You can bleat on as much as you like about how you are paying for a service, but you are not - you are paying for a property with certain features provided in it. Thats why there is no hard and fast rule as to how long a problem should take to be fixed - it is what is reasonable in the circumstances. And no court would hold a tenant entitled to leave 4 days after central heating broke down, nor 10. She breached the tenancy agreement; I did not. And I know the generic of tenants I'm now avoiding, although I will not describe it on here.

My tenancy agreement states that maintenance is provided by the landlord and that only reasonable wear and tear is allowed by me. I am obliged to honour my side of the rental agreement and I expect the LL to honour his. Simple really. You're looking at it from a LL point, I'm looking at it from the tenants.
Reasonable service and it's definition varies. I personally think waiting 2 weeks for a lock on a shared bathroom to be even looked at, let alone fixed, is not reasonable.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 13-09-2010 1:38pm

Tough crowd here today!

At 27 I've been in lots of different positions - student tenant, professional tenant, home owner, amateur landlord (renting rooms in my house).

I think a huge problem with thing is the "them and us" attitude. Not all landlords are out to screw people, same as not all tenants are lazy.

I'm a little flabbergasted by the genernal helplessness of some people here and high expectations.

The only major problem that sticks out in my mind as a tenant was when our boiler broke in a cold January in 2003. In fairness the Landlord sent someone out the next day and the plumber decided a new boiler was needed. It took a day or two to get one but we just had to make due in the meantime.

Since I've been renting rooms in my house I've had no hassle from anyone. I always tell any of the lads to let me know if something needs fixing as I might just not notice it myself (e.g. the main bathroom as I have an esuite).

Think I've been lucky with tenants (touch wood) as I seem to be a good judge of character.

Here's an example of a girl that would have been a possible new tenant. She has lost my phone number twice (bit careless) and had to email to get in contact with me. All communication from her is by email or text (which seems a little strange, I'd always want to speak with someone on the phone if I was interested in the room). She has missed two viewings and never contacted me to say she wouldn't be able to make it (would be polite to, I woud if something popped up and I wouldn't be around). Surprise, she did mention it was her first time moving out of home, she's 20. After all that I decided to say the room was taken.

I'll probably get flak for that last paragraph but sometimes you just get bad vibes from people.

Distorted · 13-09-2010 1:39pm

ash23 wrote: »

So whats the problem? She decided to move out and it cost her the deposit. Isn't that the purpose of the deposit?

You are speculating that it was an excuse. And it wouldn't be worth suing her for 3 months rent. You have her deposit and a new tenant.

In my own experiences, most come when called if they think there's a problem which may escalate. For the issues they don't deem serious, they sort or ignore. And in turn I stay or move on at the end of the lease.

Reasonable service and it's definition varies. I personally think waiting 2 weeks for a lock on a shared bathroom to be even looked at, let alone fixed, is not reasonable.

I don't think its excessive. An internal lock is a very minor issue. Particularly when at the time of the complaint, there is only one tenant in the flat. The ventilation fan is also so noisy its pretty easy to tell when someone is in the bathroom or not.

As a landlord, you have to make a judgement call as to whether a fault is serious enough to respond to straight away or to wait. Sometimes faults suddenly go away - the washing machine that is "definately broken" that resolves itself when switched on, the room that is draughty fixed when a window is closed...

In this case, the tenant was on the phone to me at the same time of night, every other night, complaining and then saying something was fixed, then saying it was broken again. My instinct rightly told me to ensure the major problems were fixed asap (the heating and the lighting). Bear in mind I had got a plumber out the previous week because she couldn't work out how to switch on the central heating and the "electrical fault" by this point had been solved by the plumber flipping up the fuse switch! It was my judgement call that the lock on the bathroom door had been like that for a while and she knew about it but was only making an issue about it because she wanted to wanted to inflame the situation for some reason. I wanted to see it for myself before paying for a joiner to fix it and saw no reason to cut short my holiday because of a minor problem because at this stage, the two previous reported faults by her had not been faults at all. I myself fixed it in around 3 minutes without paying for a joiner.

I was right in my assumption; she must have had somewhere to move to all along as she didn't ask me for a reference, so I am assuming she had a friend to move in with. She wanted to make up some excuse for moving out and stopping paying her rent.

The purpose of the deposit is not to pay the rent in lieu of the tenant giving notice. It is to provide security for damages caused by the tenant and for outstanding unpaid bills. Which the utility companies will now be chasing up as I have given them her work address (she has refused to give a forwarding address). I don't even think she has done this deliberately, I think she is just very disorganised in these matters. And it has cost me, in terms of hassle and time spent looking for a new tenant and preparing the lease.

There are plenty of people out there who don't treat their lease in such a cavalier fashion. I would not have dreamt of telling her to move out because she was annoying me and I wanted a bigger rent because the rental market has picked up, without notice. I stuck to the terms of the lease.

Distorted · 13-09-2010 1:46pm

Livia Ancient Self-image wrote: »

Tough crowd here today!

Here's an example of a girl that would have been a possible new tenant. She has lost my phone number twice (bit careless) and had to email to get in contact with me. All communication from her is by email or text (which seems a little strange, I'd always want to speak with someone on the phone if I was interested in the room). She has missed two viewings and never contacted me to say she wouldn't be able to make it (would be polite to, I woud if something popped up and I wouldn't be around). Surprise, she did mention it was her first time moving out of home, she's 20. After all that I decided to say the room was taken.

I'll probably get flak for that last paragraph but sometimes you just get bad vibes from people.

Thats the type I'm avoiding now too. Total nightmare. I also avoid the the ones that can't read what the rent is in the advert or ask me whether bills are included when it says they aren't. And can they see more photographs (just make an appointment to view if interested!). I also told the one who phoned me at 20 minutes to midnight to see if the room was still available that it wasn't!

astrofool · 13-09-2010 1:46pm

I think this thread has descended/ing into tit-for-tat replies.

It's not reasonable to move out of an apartment due to the heating being down for 10 days during August, due to the part being on order.

It's also not reasonable to move out because an internal lock which was broken by the tenant wasn't fixed within two weeks.

It's also not reasonable for a landlord to be responsible for a tenant's phobias, unless previously agreed.

A business which rents premises, and does pay a service charge, wouldn't behave like the tenant has in this case

OP, does the apartment not have an immersion heater for hot water as well? Or was it also out of action?

Distorted · 13-09-2010 1:50pm

It does not have an immersion heater. However the kettle, washing machine, dishwasher, shower and electric heater continued to work.

OMD · 13-09-2010 1:59pm

astrofool wrote: »

I think this thread has descended/ing into tit-for-tat replies.

It's not reasonable to move out of an apartment due to the heating being down for 10 days during August, due to the part being on order.

It's also not reasonable to move out because an internal lock which was broken by the tenant wasn't fixed within two weeks.

It's also not reasonable for a landlord to be responsible for a tenant's phobias, unless previously agreed.

A business which rents premises, and does pay a service charge, wouldn't behave like the tenant has in this case

OP, does the apartment not have an immersion heater for hot water as well? Or was it also out of action?

I haven't read all the quotes but, we only have the landlords version of things. I am sure the tenant would have a different version.

So many people say the tenant does not need heat in August, but clearly she did. She only found heating was not working when she turned it on. It is difficult if you are paying for an apartment and yet cannot turn on the heat when you feel it is cold.

Could the OP confirm tenant had an en-suite in her bedroom, and the shower there was broken so she had to use the shower in the main bathroom. Just from what I have read it sounds like it could be the otherway around which would be totally unacceptable to me.

You do not know lock was broken by tenant.

Irrespective of anything else, to refuse to even look at a broken lock for a few weeks is pretty dismissive of a tenant.

Lastly, it sounds like the tenant had some sort of argument with OP and may have felt she had no option but to leave:
"she intends to cancel her rental payment due the next day for the month because of the problems in the flat. I tell her I'm not happy with her living there without paying rent and she says she will move out the next day."
The tenants version of this row may be very different.

OMD · 13-09-2010 2:08pm

I have read more of this and the OP contradicts himself so much that I find it hard to believe what he is saying.

MazG · 13-09-2010 3:29pm

OMD wrote: »

I have read more of this and the OP contradicts himself so much that I find it hard to believe what he is saying.

Sorry OMD, but I've been following this thread since it started last week and I haven't noticed the OP contradicting herself once.

Other posters have (unintentionally, I imagine) caused a bit of confusion as follows:

- by bringing in comparisons about exploding lightbulbs (in the OP's case, the light bulb did not explode, it just 'blew' - stopped working and caused the trip switch to flip)

- by getting mixed up about what tradesmen were called. A plumber was called to look at the heating. While he was there, the plumber switched the trip switch back into position and afterwards expressed his private views as to the capabilities of the tenant. As far as I can make out, there was no electrician called for the purposes of flicking the trip switch (and rightly so!)

- by reminiscing about last winter and how cold is was and therefore any landlord should be getting the heating sorted immediately. (In the OP's case, the heating was not working in August for 4 days when the tenant announced she was leaving. The tenant had been given a definite 10 day time-frame for the heating to be fixed)

For the record, my opinion is that the tenant was unreasonable (on the assumption that the facts of the case have been fully presented to us). I can imagine that if I was getting constant phone calls re a situation that was already in hand, then I too would be less than inclined to cut my holiday short to go look at what may or may not be a broken bathroom door lock.

OP, a number of posters earlier on in the thread advised you to let the apartment out as one unit rather than as separate leases for each tenant. I would agree with this being the route to attracting more reasonable tenants.

convert · 13-09-2010 3:34pm

OMD wrote: »

I have read more of this and the OP contradicts himself so much that I find it hard to believe what he is saying.

You obviously haven't read it too carefully or else you'd know that the OP was a 'she' not a 'he'!

And I haven't come across any contradictory statements from the OP. Any chance you could point them out?

MazG · 13-09-2010 3:35pm

OMD wrote: »

So many people say the tenant does not need heat in August, but clearly she did. She only found heating was not working when she turned it on. It is difficult if you are paying for an apartment and yet cannot turn on the heat when you feel it is cold.

The central heating was the only way for the tenant to get hot water in her ensuite shower. This is probably why she was turning the heating on. When the tenant rang to inform the landlord that the heating was broken (following at least one previous phone call that we know of to say the same thing, when in fact the heating was not broken, the tenant was unable to turn it on despite being shown by the LL and left with instructions), the tenant was advised to use the electric shower in the main bathroom until the problem was fixed.

OMD · 13-09-2010 4:02pm

convert wrote: »

You obviously haven't read it too carefully or else you'd know that the OP was a 'she' not a 'he'!

And I haven't come across any contradictory statements from the OP. Any chance you could point them out?

Plenty but the most obvious one is that she said her tenant was "phoning me almost nightly"

However she also said
"Can I also point out that this tenant informed me that she would be ceasing payment of rent and moving out FOUR DAYS into the central heating failure."

So basically
day 1, phones re central heating,
day 2, phones re electrics,
day 3 "Blesses silence for one night" then
day 4, informed she would be ceasing payment.

Then she said:
"she had phoned me every single night that week already, alternatively telling me that the central heating was broken, no it was working now, it was broken again, it was working, the lights didn't work, etc."

Then she said:
"It was following this series of events, during which time she was phoning me every second night to complain of the central heating working, then not working, etc that she complained about the lock on the bathroom door. At this point I began to feel she was out of control and acting slightly irrationally. I adopted a tactic of wait and see and delay as I was now unsure whether the complaint was a genuine one or not. As it turned out, she moved out 4 days later"

Well obviously all that cannot be true but the amount of phonecalls is one of her main complaints and the fact her tenant was only would without heat 4 days before moving out is her defence.

OMD · 13-09-2010 4:07pm

MazG wrote: »

The central heating was the only way for the tenant to get hot water in her ensuite shower. This is probably why she was turning the heating on. When the tenant rang to inform the landlord that the heating was broken (following at least one previous phone call that we know of to say the same thing, when in fact the heating was not broken, the tenant was unable to turn it on despite being shown by the LL and left with instructions), the tenant was advised to use the electric shower in the main bathroom until the problem was fixed.

That is why I asked about where the shower was. It is unusual to have an ensuite that only works when heating is on but a main bathroom with an electric shower. It would be more common the otherway around. That is why I asked was it the other way around. ie could she not use the main bathroom and was been asked to use her flat mates ensuite while he was away which most people would be uncomfortable doing.

MazG · 13-09-2010 4:18pm

True, it is more usual to have an electric shower in an ensuite and a shower working off the hot water supply in the main bathroom, but the OP was asked to clarify this and did so.

As for the time frame query you raised, it is a fair point. My impression was that the tenant had been ringing the landlord to say the heating was broken (when it was not), then ringing to say that it was not broken, then ringing to say that yes, it was broken and that it was at this point the plumber was called who gave the 10-day estimate (which was followed by more phone calls to complain about the heating, then the sitting room light/trip switch, then the bathroom door).

Perhaps the OP would like to clarify though...

OMD · 13-09-2010 4:24pm

MazG wrote: »

True, it is more usual to have an electric shower in an ensuite and a shower working off the hot water supply in the main bathroom, but the OP was asked to clarify this and did so.
...

Did she? Sorry I didn't see that. Where was it?

My point though is there is obviously 2 sides to this story and I am sure the tenants would be very different.

MazG · 13-09-2010 4:36pm

Distorted wrote: »

The bathroom was a shared one, shared between her and the other tenant. She was free to use it if she wanted a bath instead of a shower.

It's on page 9 - not sure of the post number.

Yes, there are always 2 sides to every story, that's true. But I'm trying to imagine the tenants side of things and I still wouldn't be able to justify breaking a lease because of:
- heating not working for (up to) 10 days in August
- a bulb in the sitting room blowing requiring a trip switch to be flicked
- a malfunctioning bathroom door lock not being immediately being sorted while the the LL was on holidays, at a time when the tenant was the only person in the apartment.

Any speculation over whether there was a nasty row between the two parties, is just that... speculation.

Assuming that the OP's version of events is accurate, I still say the tenant was behaving unreasonably

OMD · 13-09-2010 5:39pm

MazG wrote: »

It's on page 9 - not sure of the post number.

You mean where she said "The bathroom was a shared one, shared between her and the other tenant. She was free to use it if she wanted a bath instead of a shower". To me that implies the main bathroom was the one with the broken shower.

MazG wrote: »

Any speculation over whether there was a nasty row between the two parties, is just that... speculation. {/quote]

Well they had a row. That is not speculation. I never said it was nasty.

Distorted · 13-09-2010 7:13pm

MazG wrote: »

True, it is more usual to have an electric shower in an ensuite and a shower working off the hot water supply in the main bathroom, but the OP was asked to clarify this and did so.

As for the time frame query you raised, it is a fair point. My impression was that the tenant had been ringing the landlord to say the heating was broken (when it was not), then ringing to say that it was not broken, then ringing to say that yes, it was broken and that it was at this point the plumber was called who gave the 10-day estimate (which was followed by more phone calls to complain about the heating, then the sitting room light/trip switch, then the bathroom door).

Perhaps the OP would like to clarify though...

Thats a very accurate summary. The tenant's en suite bathroom contained only a shower working off the combi boiler (and WC and sink obviously). The tenant always had additional use of the main bathroom which contained an electric shower over a bath.

I have not contradicted myself. The tenant gave notice that she would cancel her standing order for the rent just after notification to her that the plumber would be calling back to fix it in 10 days time (she knew it needed a part). She claimed she had forgotten I'd told her the date the plumber was due, which struck me as very odd. She moved out 4 days after her last notification that the central heating was broken. I had not acted on a previous such notification because the next day she phoned back to say that it was working, and this was over the weekend and did not press as an immediate emergency. Prior to this, the phone calls from the tenant about the central heating occurred before the plumber first came out and found nothing wrong with the central heating at all, other than the fact she did not know how to operate it correctly. You can perhaps understand why, when faced with such contradictory and false complaints in the past and getting a plumber out again already, and being on holiday, as the tenant was aware, I did not immediately arrange for a joiner to fix the broken bathroom lock. The other tenant had not complained about it and it was his only bathroom provision.

Another point to clarify - the tenant did not complain at all about lack of heating from the central heating over this period but only about her being unable to use her shower in her en suite. This seemed to be the thing that concerned her most, more so than the very slightly broken lock in the shared bathroom. She said she didn't like the electric shower as it was less powerful than the en suite one.

I have no idea if she intended to stay in my property free of charge or not - she simply phoned me up on the Sunday evening to tell me that she was cancelling her standing order for the rent which was due 2 days later. It is more my feeling that she didn't really know what she was doing and she had a rather immature attitude towards signed agreements. I told her I was not happy with her living there without paying rent (thats all I said) and she said fine, I'll move out tomorrow. Obviously she had no reference from me as current landlord and had somewhere else lined up to move into. It is my strong suspicion that she got a better offer from a friend and wanted to get out of her obligation to honour the tenancy agreement, and wanted to make it look as if I were at fault.

Obviously the tenant cannot give her side of the story. However, despite all the bizarre remarks that have been made regarding myself and the state of my properties (apparantly I am student hovel landlord!), I think most sensible posters can discern from my style of response that I am truthful and sensible.

I can honestly say I'm glad she has gone and things have worked out for the best. Getting that number of phone calls in the evening is not much fun. Fair enough if its an emergency situation, but when its one I'm dealing with, then I don't want a tenant like that. I phoned my new tenant yesterday to see how he was settling in and he seems happy and has already worked out how to use the central heating. He seemed surprised that I called.

ash23 · 14-09-2010 10:09am

Was she paying more for the room with the en-suite than the other tenant was paying?

daltonm · 14-09-2010 10:47am

Ash - How is it up to the landlord to know about a broken lock if someone living in the apartment didn't know?

And again, the other tenant was away at the time, she was on her own in the apartment - had she feared "someone" would walk in on her could she not have used logic and reason and locked/bolted the front door?

Her heating broke - she called the LL who in turn called a plumber.
She was told it would take 10 days - what is the landlord to do? Some suggestions have been to call another plumber - at who's expense?

This is not a free service supplied to the Landlord and had the LL called out another plumber the answer could have been the same.

She was alone in the apartment and had another shower at her disposal - she then claimed the shower was not suitable because of a broken lock.

She left the apartment because of the problems - heating was broken and a lock was broken.

This is unreasonable behaviour.

Is This Unreasonable?

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