That goddamn pregnancy thaaang...

EuropeanSon

Randy, I said I support euthanasia, and that there are valid reasons to kill other people. I am now unwilling to go into further detail, as (a) my iPod touch's battery is about to go, and (b) I need sleep.
Thank you all for a very interesting discussion!

randylonghorn

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Randy, I said I support euthanasia, and that there are valid reasons to kill other people.

I know you did, I wasn't arguing that with you, I was pointing out that the more you think about it, the more moral absolutes fail to be absolute. Which is usually just as well.

EuropeanSon wrote: »

(b) I need sleep.
!

Yeah, me too.

Wow, this thread really did take some weird and wonderful meanderings!

Davidius

Aoibheann wrote: »

With all that said, Davidius, do you think you would follow such an approach to the very last if you were in such a situation?

Guys, it's very very easy to think you'd have a perfect approach to a problem when you're on the outside looking in.


Edit: Oh wait, Davidius said policies. So ignore my first line. My second still stands though. >_>

I'm aware that my position seems weak because I don't have any sort of experience of the situation but I'm just making do with with what I have. Even so I'd try my best to make sure any sort of emotional experience I've had wouldn't interfere with shaping a solid legal policy.

It probably doesn't sound as convincing coming from me as I don't think I've ever felt strongly emotional, or at least for any extended period of time. Evidence that I can't easily empathise with people who are very passionate sure enough but even so it seems most people can deal with it given the time.
I really think you have to be a bit cruel and detached to keep things running properly and progressively.

Ginja Ninja

amazing discussion is amazing.I'm seriously surprised how well everyone came at this, for a teenage forum

One thing to be aware of there are people reading this thread who have been in the situations you've used as examples, I'm not saying to not make your point and stand by your views.But take into consideration that you're not just spouting points on the internet, these situations have happened and these are real people.

Also, I'd firmly believe the abortion argument is one that can't be "won" like some of you think it can.It's a personal choice, social stigma/social norms should play no part in the decision

Grindylow

I'm pro-abortion in some cases. I can't say I am in all. I can understand if it's a victim of rape, etc, because that's something that can't be controlled and the mother would have to deal with it for the rest of her life so it's not fair on her. I'm against abortion in the case of where a couple were together, and they break up when the female party finds that she's pregnant and this results in an abortion. If they were stupid enough to have sex unprotected (I'm not saying anything about breakages, etc) then they should have to man up and deal with the consequences. A life is a life whether or not it's formed, or whether it's 18 years old.
That may sound totally wrong to some people, but sure everyones opinion is different and I'm not one to judge someones decisions because I have my own just like they have their own.

On the note of getting someone pregnant:
I don't really know what I'd do.. I suppose you'd have to be in the situation to see for yourself. People may say what they would do but honestly there's no proof that they will do that. I'd like to think I'd support her and help raise the child because I think it's unfair for a child to grow up with only one parent when it's possible for them to have two.

Novella

There's absolutely no point in having an abortion debate. No one is gonna change their view, and you know what? That's okay. Some people think it's completely wrong, some people don't. It's fine for everyone to have their opinion, and all that is wrong is when it comes to forcing it on other people.

If one disagrees with abortion, that is okay, but they should disagree with it for themselves. It's impossible to ever understand another persons situation unless you've been in their shoes. I've said it before but abortion is not just right or wrong, life isn't that simple. Abortion is often held really close to the hearts of many, it's part of their life story and as far as I'm concerned, it is downright insensitive to judge.

XxMCRxBabyxX

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Morning after pill unless already on the pill. Wouldn't see any other option?

Happened...

couldn't sleep for the night, straight to the free college doc in the morn and got the morning after pill and onto the pill as well

Grindylow

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Happened...

couldn't sleep for the night, straight to the free college doc in the morn and got the morning after pill and onto the pill as well

The pill and the morning after pill are different?!

Novella

Noel2k9 wrote: »

The pill and the morning after pill are different?!

The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive. A woman can take it within 72 hours (I think!) after having unprotected sex in order to prevent a pregnancy occurring. The Pill is what is taken every day as a regular contraceptive.

Grindylow

Novella wrote: »

The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive. A woman can take it within 72 hours (I think!) after having unprotected sex in order to prevent a pregnancy occurring. The Pill is what is taken every day as a regular contraceptive.

Oh right! That clears that up, merci! :P

XxMCRxBabyxX

Noel2k9 wrote: »

The pill and the morning after pill are different?!

Morning after pill:

The emergency contraceptive pills are high dose oestrogen pills and are taken in two separate doses. The first dose must be taken within 72 hours of unprotected intercourse followed by the second dose 12 hours later. It is important to make sure that there were no previous bouts of unprotected intercourse prior to this 72-hour window. If this was the case the woman could already be pregnant and the pills would be contraindicated. The IUD can be inserted up to five days after unprotected intercourse in the hope of preventing pregnancy.

The Contraceptive Pill:

Combined pills increase the levels of oestrogen and progesterone in the body. This in turn affects the production of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone). These hormones are produced in the pituitary gland (a regulator gland located at the base of the brain, behind the eyes). FSH and LH are involved in the release of the egg or ovum from the ovary. If ovulation is interrupted, the ovary does not release an egg and pregnancy cannot occur.

Combined pills are taken for 21 days with a seven-day break before starting again. They are packaged with the days of the week clearly marked for convenience.

The first course of pills is generally started on the first day of a period (Day 1) or the fifth day after bleeding starts (Day 5). Contraceptive protection is immediate with a Day 1 start. Additional contraceptive precautions are required for seven days after a Day 5 start.

Subsequent packets are started on the eighth day after finishing the previous packet. During the seven days off the pill a woman usually gets a period. Periods on the pill are generally lighter, less painful and more regular than a woman’s own period.

When i went to the doctor for the morning after pill she killed me for not being on the Pill and put me on that as well!

Grindylow

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Morning after pill:


The Contraceptive Pill:


When i went to the doctor for the morning after pill she killed me for not being on the Pill and put me on that as well!

Aye. I'm pretty sure the majority of girls in my year are on the pill. :pac: The amount of discussions you'd hear on it, it's awful casual.

Girl #1: Ugh I've to go to the doctors after school to get the pill
Girl #2: Is yours the blue or the pink?
#1: Blue..


..Oh right. OK. :P

XxMCRxBabyxX

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Aye. I'm pretty sure the majority of girls in my year are on the pill. :pac: The amount of discussions you'd hear on it, it's awful casual.

Girl #1: Ugh I've to go to the doctors after school to get the pill
Girl #2: Is yours the blue or the pink?
#1: Blue..


..Oh right. OK. :P

Sure some girl's think they're so cool because they're on it. I remember those conversations when I was in school. It was nearly a status symbol!

Grindylow

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Sure some girl's think they're so cool because they're on it. I remember those conversations when I was in school. It was nearly a status symbol!

Yeah it pretty much is! :pac: They all started into it in 5th year! :P

XxMCRxBabyxX

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Yeah it pretty much is! :pac: They all started into it in 5th year! :P

What they are basically trying to say is "Look at me, I have sex!"

Novella

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Oh sorry, I'll just pretend to agree to avoid hurting your feelings then, shall I?

No, disagree with me all you want. I'm just suggesting that perhaps you take a look at the manner in which you are doing so. You think you're right, you disagree with me. I don't think you are wrong though. I think you're entitled to feel however you choose and have no intention to try influence your opinion.

I just always think it's kinda funny how people are so wrapped up in their beliefs that they can't even for a second see things from anyone elses point of view.

EuropeanSon

Novella wrote: »

No, disagree with me all you want. I'm just suggesting that perhaps you take a look at the manner in which you are doing so. You think you're right, you disagree with me. I don't think you are wrong though. I think you're entitled to feel however you choose and have no intention to try influence your opinion.

I just always think it's kinda funny how people are so wrapped up in their beliefs that they can't even for a second see things from anyone elses point of view.

I did consider it from your point of view. And then I decided that I felt your point of view was wrong.
What is the problem with the manner I am posting in? If there's something you find offensive in my manner of disagreeing with you, explain it, and I'll consider changing it. Or is it that I disagree that you find offensive? If so, that isn't my problem.

QueenOfLeon

If anyone is confused about the different types of pill and other contraception, they are regularly talked about in The Ladies Lounge. I think girls should know what options are available to them (there are more besides condoms and the pill that people don't know about) and that guys should have some knowledge about it to help or advise their girlfriend.

There is absolutely no right and wrong in the abortion debate. Some agree, some don't, no amount of arguing is going to change it. Its a decision that most people would hope they'd never have to make, but if it came to it, its YOUR decision (along with your partner) and this won't be swayed by arguments on the internet.

Novella

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I did consider it from your point of view. And then I decided that I felt your point of view was wrong.
What is the problem with the manner I am posting in? If there's something you find offensive in my manner of disagreeing with you, explain it, and I'll consider changing it. Or is it that I disagree that you find offensive? If so, that isn't my problem.

If you'd disagreed with me, would I have found it offensive? No, of course not. What I found offensive was you calling my opinion 'flawed'. Firstly, it's downright rude. You are calling what I believe to be inadequate, inaccurate and incorrect and to be perfectly honest with you, that's hurtful. I have personal experience in relation to the subject matter. I once booked an abortion which I was unable to go through with, so having been in the situation myself, I feel compassion and an ability to relate to others who have been there also.

I suppose because I got pregnant at a young age and know what that is like, I can no longer view abortion without also remembering the sheer terror. Abortion isn't just a simple solution, it's not just something that is right or wrong. No amount of discussion is ever going to bring us to a definitive answer.

Maybe I'm just tired of reading one-sided views. 'Abortion is wrong' etc., and the suggestion of adoption and so on from people who haven't even bothered to consider anything else. I wish I thought that life was so simple, I wish I believed that there was right and there was wrong and that there were things one should do as opposed to things one just had to.

Life isn't black and white, it's all kinds of shades of grey and it's somewhere in there that abortion lies. Sometimes a woman won't survive a pregnancy, sometimes the baby won't survive after birth. Sometimes it's a case of, "I'm too scared". Some women are raped.

I don't disagree with you, I don't. I don't want you to change what you believe. I'd like to think that every question only had one right answer, and all it takes is looking for it, but ime, that isn't the case. Sometimes there is a right option, the option you want, but you can't have it. You just can't. That's what makes life pretty shit.

So, what I am saying is, my opinion might be flawed in your eyes, but voicing that was inappropriate and on the internet and interacting with people who you don't know, you need to be more careful.

EuropeanSon

Novella wrote: »

If you'd disagreed with me, would I have found it offensive? No, of course not. What I found offensive was you calling my opinion 'flawed'. Firstly, it's downright rude. You are calling what I believe to be inadequate, inaccurate and incorrect and to be perfectly honest with you, that's hurtful. I have personal experience in relation to the subject matter. I once booked an abortion which I was unable to go through with, so having been in the situation myself, I feel compassion and an ability to relate to others who have been there also.

I suppose because I got pregnant at a young age and know what that is like, I can no longer view abortion without also remembering the sheer terror. Abortion isn't just a simple solution, it's not just something that is right or wrong. No amount of discussion is ever going to bring us to a definitive answer.

Maybe I'm just tired of reading one-sided views. 'Abortion is wrong' etc., and the suggestion of adoption and so on from people who haven't even bothered to consider anything else. I wish I thought that life was so simple, I wish I believed that there was right and there was wrong and that there were things one should do as opposed to things one just had to.

Life isn't black and white, it's all kinds of shades of grey and it's somewhere in there that abortion lies. Sometimes a woman won't survive a pregnancy, sometimes the baby won't survive after birth. Sometimes it's a case of, "I'm too scared". Some women are raped.

I don't disagree with you, I don't. I don't want you to change what you believe. I'd like to think that every question only had one right answer, and all it takes is looking for it, but ime, that isn't the case. Sometimes there is a right option, the option you want, but you can't have it. You just can't. That's what makes life pretty shit.

So, what I am saying is, my opinion might be flawed in your eyes, but voicing that was inappropriate and on the internet and interacting with people who you don't know, you need to be more careful.

I apologise for offending you, but we are on a discussion board. I have every right to state my opinions.

QueenOfLeon

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Which you yourself started.

No one started an abortion debate. The question was "what would you do?", some said no I'd never have one, some said yes I would. And thats fine! Each person has to make their own decision in that situation.

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I think you are overly sensitive. I am certainly not making an attempt to drag you back into anything. I expected you to stop posting ages ago. I don't feel you should debate anything with the way you seem to approach arguments.

What? Novella, I think you're amazing for your honesty and your input. I'm sorry if starting a thread like this brought things back for you, but if you're comfortable posting about it its great because I find your input really, really interesting. If you want to start a debate EuropeanSon, you have to be prepared to have every side of the story presented to you. Novella is giving her thoughts from having been in that situation which no one else who has posted has been in (or will not say, which of course is reasonable).

Edit: sorry, thought that was towards Novella must read posts properly :P

Professey Chin

I knew this would go this way.Pregnancy thread results in abortion thread results in some rational discussion before someone takes the moral high ground,classes all others options as flawed besides their own.Simple maths
Pregnancy -> Abortion + Stubborness =

Catari Jaguar

phasers wrote: »

I'd call the vatican because it would be an immaculate conception

You mean Virgin Birth. Immaculate conception refers to Mary, "Oh Mary conceived without sin..." You know, immaculate = clean.


15 thanks? I thought religion was taught in schools.

QueenOfLeon

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

I knew this would go this way.Pregnancy thread results in abortion thread results in some rational discussion before someone takes the moral high ground,classes all others options as flawed besides their own.Simple maths
Pregnancy -> Abortion + Stubborness =

With a small detour around Chinese overcrowding...:P

Insect Overlord

Okay folks, problem solved and thread re-opened.

KnifeWRENCH

Ugh....reading back over this thread is making me cringe rather a lot.

I already sent Insect Overlord a PM apologising for my behaviour, but I should apologise to everyone else on this forum too.

I still stand by my opinions, and make no apology for them. I believe I was right in what I said, but not in the way I said it; I shouldn't have expressed my opinions so aggressively, and I do apologise for that. Especially considering that I'm a moderator of this forum; I should have known better than to allow things get so heated and to allow myself to get dragged into a fruitless, pointless argument that ruined the thread for everyone else.

So yeah......sorry guys.

EuropeanSon

Not being a mod, I am unable to post in the locked thread, so here is as good a place as any to reassert that I am sorry for using what in hindsight was an unnecessarily forthright tone in the pregnancy thread. While I stand by the intended meaning of everything I said, I apologise to those of you who were offended by the way I said it.

Davidius

Novella wrote: »

There's absolutely no point in having an abortion debate. No one is gonna change their view, and you know what? That's okay. Some people think it's completely wrong, some people don't. It's fine for everyone to have their opinion, and all that is wrong is when it comes to forcing it on other people.

If one disagrees with abortion, that is okay, but they should disagree with it for themselves. It's impossible to ever understand another persons situation unless you've been in their shoes. I've said it before but abortion is not just right or wrong, life isn't that simple. Abortion is often held really close to the hearts of many, it's part of their life story and as far as I'm concerned, it is downright insensitive to judge.

The thing about the abortion debate is that most pro-life people don't believe that a mother should be allowed to decide whether she must carry out the pregnancy. If a foetus is a human being it seems logical that making it legal to kill it would lead to a contradiction hence why how you classify the foetus is the crux of the whole debate. It doesn't really make sense to take a 'live and let live' stance on abortion if you believe it to be unethical when it comes to matters of legalisation.

It's insensitive to judge people for their decision, I agree. If somebody decided to go off and have an abortion then it's not really my business. I'm allowed to think their decision has ethical implications though and I'm entitled to think that they shouldn't legally be allowed to choose whether to terminate the pregnancy or not (in the majority of circumstances at least).

Novella

Davidius wrote: »

The thing about the abortion debate is that most pro-life people don't believe that a mother should be allowed to decide whether she must carry out the pregnancy. If a foetus is a human being it seems logical that making it legal to kill it would lead to a contradiction hence why how you classify the foetus is the crux of the whole debate. It doesn't really make sense to take a 'live and let live' stance on abortion if you believe it to be unethical when it comes to matters of legalisation.

It's insensitive to judge people for their decision, I agree. If somebody decided to go off and have an abortion then it's not really my business. I'm allowed to think their decision has ethical implications though and I'm entitled to think that they shouldn't legally be allowed to choose whether to terminate the pregnancy or not (in the majority of circumstances at least).

I get that. I just think it's something that's very hard to ever really understand until you're faced with the decision yourself. I was really pro-life once upon a time.

QueenOfLeon

Would people (either guys or girls) have a chat about something like this with a girlfriend/boyfriend at some stage, or would it be more of a "lets deal with that if it happens" thing?