Shooting cats

Qualitymark

There's a thread over on the Hunting forum (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67903591#post67903591) by someone who's been asked to shoot feral cats that are dining on a neighbour's pigeons.

Maybe someone who knows the law on this could give an expert viewpoint?

convert

Qualitymark wrote: »

There's a thread over on the Hunting forum (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67903591#post67903591) by someone who's been asked to shoot feral cats that are dining on a neighbour's pigeons.

Maybe someone who knows the law on this could give an expert viewpoint?

As far as I know, I think there were links to some relevant threads in the other thread in which you posted on that forum. They may be of some use to you.

Also, if you're looking for a specific legal opinion, it may be worthwhile contacting a solicitor or other legal professional. You could try FLAC; it's free. A legal professional would be the best person to contact for legal advice (no offence to anybody on this forum, btw ).

Discodog

The only domestic animal, defined by law, that can be killed for killing livestock is a dog. A cat is considered a domestic animal but there is a twist in that the definition of domestic is a tame animal so not a feral cat. Anyone shooting a feral cat would have no way of knowing that they were not shooting someone's pet.

Section 1 (1) of the Protection of Animals Act, 1911, as amended creates the offence of cruelty “if any person” causes, procures or (if the owner) permits the following acts to be perpetrated on animals:-

1 (a) to cruelly beat, kick, ill treat, over ride, over drive, over load, torture, infuriate, or terrify any animal; or
1 (b) to convey or carry an animal in a manner or position which causes unnecessary suffering; or
1 (c) to assist in the fighting or baiting of an animal (including the provision of premises and obtaining admission fees for the same); or:
1(d) the administration of poisonous or injurious drugs or substances to animals; or
1 (e) subjecting an animal to an operation which is performed without due care and humanity.

You will note that there is nothing about killing !. One could argue that shooting could cause unnecessary suffering.

You could try calling the ISPCA as they must of run this past the lawyers before.

Qualitymark

Thanks, discodog - but could you post that over in the Hunting discussion, maybe, so the people actually talking about shooting the cats can see it?

Discodog

I would suggest that you report the post on the grounds that it may be promoting an illegal activity. Perhaps the Mods here could advise ?.

meathstevie

Discodog wrote: »

The only domestic animal, defined by law, that can be killed for killing livestock is a dog. A cat is considered a domestic animal but there is a twist in that the definition of domestic is a tame animal so not a feral cat. Anyone shooting a feral cat would have no way of knowing that they were not shooting someone's pet.

Section 1 (1) of the Protection of Animals Act, 1911, as amended creates the offence of cruelty “if any person” causes, procures or (if the owner) permits the following acts to be perpetrated on animals:-

1 (a) to cruelly beat, kick, ill treat, over ride, over drive, over load, torture, infuriate, or terrify any animal; or
1 (b) to convey or carry an animal in a manner or position which causes unnecessary suffering; or
1 (c) to assist in the fighting or baiting of an animal (including the provision of premises and obtaining admission fees for the same); or:
1(d) the administration of poisonous or injurious drugs or substances to animals; or
1 (e) subjecting an animal to an operation which is performed without due care and humanity.

You will note that there is nothing about killing !. One could argue that shooting could cause unnecessary suffering.

You could try calling the ISPCA as they must of run this past the lawyers before.

If feral cats cause loss and damage to property ( in the situation you mention the pigeons of a lad's neighbour ) I believe shooting is the least cruel option, if cruel is even the right word to use in this instance. A shotgun or a small calibre rifle will dispatch the cat swiftly, even before it's heard the shot in fact. Compare that to the stress of trapping, transporting and an injection in the end.

Please keep in mind that the issue is feral cats and not someone's beloved moggie.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone shooting a feral cat would have no way of knowing that they were not shooting someone's pet.

Big difference in build, condition and behaviour between the two. Absolute rubbish that they cannot be distinguished.

convert

Regardless of one's opinion on shooting cats, it must be pointed out that the person who started the thread was actually asking about the laws governing the shooting of feral cats, and wanted to get advice before they started to cull the colony.

Discodog

I hope to be able to get an answer on this but it will take a couple of days. It really is a very grey area.

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

Big difference in build, condition and behaviour between the two. Absolute rubbish that they cannot be distinguished.

A lost pet will can appear feral pretty quickly. But maybe shooting a pet is legal ?. We would be relying on the ability of the shooter to distinguish a feral, & a good enough shot to dispatch it without suffering.

In reality all shooting will involve some degree of suffering at some time. No shooter or shot will be 100% perfect.

Sparks

Discodog wrote: »

In reality all shooting will involve some degree of suffering at some time.

In reality, this is true - though the length of time involved may be less than that required for the animal to actually perceive the pain.

In either event, cruelty to animals is (and I know this sounds ironic, but it's perfectly correct) not tolerated on the Hunting forum (and neither would the discussion of illegal acts be - the simple truth is that the shooting of feral cats as a means of population control is not illegal, unpleasant a thought for cat lovers as the necessity of that control might be). So there is no cause for concern here.

Discodog

Sparks can you post any links to where this has been legally established ?.
Or can you say where or who verified the law ?.

I suspect that you may be right but as this is bound to crop up again, it would be good to have chapter & verse.

Sparks

The law works in the opposite sense Disco; animals which may not be shot are listed, not animals which may be shot. Feral cats are not protected animals under the Wildlife Acts.

Discodog

There is a potential problem over the definition of feral. A feral cat can be a domestic cat that is living wild - they are not a distinct species. For example a man could shoot a neighbours cat that is on his birdtable. He could argue that it is feral & on his land.

Who defines a feral cat as wildlife ?. The law defines that you can legally shoot a dog that is worrying livestock but no mention is made of cats.

I am guessing that somewhere there will be some case law that has set precedence. I have contacted (woke up !) an animal lawyer so I hope to have a definitive answer in about a month !.

jap gt

Discodog wrote: »

There is a potential problem over the definition of feral. A feral cat can be a domestic cat that is living wild - they are not a distinct species. For example a man could shoot a neighbours cat that is on his birdtable. He could argue that it is feral & on his land.

Who defines a feral cat as wildlife ?. The law defines that you can legally shoot a dog that is worrying livestock but no mention is made of cats.

I am guessing that somewhere there will be some case law that has set precedence. I have contacted (woke up !) an animal lawyer so I hope to have a definitive answer in about a month !.

a domestic cat living in the wild, isnt a domestic cat, a cat living in the wild isnt tame

Discodog

jap gt wrote: »

a domestic cat living in the wild, isnt a domestic cat, a cat living in the wild isnt tame

So Mrs Browns moggy goes missing & starts living off the land. At what point does he cease to be her beloved pet & become your target ?.

Discodog

Sparks wrote: »

The law works in the opposite sense Disco; animals which may not be shot are listed, not animals which may be shot. Feral cats are not protected animals under the Wildlife Acts.

Kinda sums up shooting. I will kill it unless the law says that I can't.

jap gt

as soon as he isnt relying on her for food and starts relying on my neighbours ducklings, i like cats we keep a few but as soon as the stay living in fields avoiding people and killing ducklings the are fair game

jap gt

Discodog wrote: »

Kinda sums up shooting. I will kill it unless the law says that I can't.

most shooters wont run out to shoot the first thing on the list, i for one only shoot something thats doing damage be it to live stock or crops with the exception of game birds

Sparks

Having had pet cats my whole life, and having run into feral cats more than once, I'd contest the assertion that the two cannot be easily differentiated.

For a start, trying to pet the latter is a reasonably quick and reliable way of removing the skin and some of the flesh from your hand. And that in and of itself is the legal distinction between a wild and a domestic animal under the 1911 Act.

Sparks

Discodog wrote: »

Kinda sums up shooting. I will kill it unless the law says that I can't.

No, that doesn't sum up shooting at all, it's a false stereotype that pays no respect at all to the incredible amounts of time and money and effort that hunters pour into conservation. No other group, whether state body or otherwise, puts as much into the welfare of wild animals as hunters do. And I realise how nonintuitive that sounds; but every piece of research, every piece of data gathered, says exactly the same thing.

boomerang

doctor evil wrote: »

Big difference in build, condition and behaviour between the two. Absolute rubbish that they cannot be distinguished.

Sorry - that's absolute baloney. If you like I'll post up some pics of feral cats that we've released, and domesticated cats, and you tell me which is which? Even a tame cat will dash off at the approach of someone they don't know. Even if a cat is tame it's often well-nigh impossible to get it to come to you in an open space if it doesn't know you.

Not to mention the fact that lots of feral cats are healthy, well-fed and even allow a degree of petting from the people who feed them regularly.

I often get call outs to people that have a "feral" cat hanging around that turns out to be tame but spooked. I've also rescued cats that were in such a bad state I assumed they must be feral, only to discover very quickly once they'd been rescued that they were completely tame!

Shooting feral cats might be a solution in the short-term, but once you create a territorial vaccum, it'll be quickly filled by other feral cats in the neighbourhood so you're back to square one. Doesn't solve the problem with the pigeons in this particular instance, but the best management of feral cats is TNR - trap, neuter, release. Culling just doesn't work.

And for me personally, this is yet another reason why I would never, ever leave a cat of mine free to roam.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

Kinda sums up shooting. I will kill it unless the law says that I can't.

We can all pass broad sweeping statements :rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

This has been done to death. No more discussion of this subject is allowed.