EU looking at Corporation Tax

liammur

Tora Bora wrote: »

You are most confused my dear man.
The ESB is not a MNC!!!!!!!!!!!! That particular organisation is a bye product of the rotten semi state structure of the past. Do what ever you bloody like with the tax on their profits, they have no where to go!! They cannot relocated to Poland:P

Go back to your original position.
Explain your logic in upping the tax on the true MNC's in this country.

Incorrect, ESB have plenty of places to go as they have already diversified in many places around the world.

You'll need to re-read my posts. I simply can't be re-posting the same material in different wording.

_Kaiser_

Count Dooku wrote: »

you forgot word affordable
Very few will take job below 25K, because majority of unemployed will be be better on dole, rather then on 18-22K

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

The dole needs to be lowered obviously

Ah the usual "cut the dole, and that'll solve ALL our problems" argument that's trotted out here almost daily! :rolleyes:

What you forget though is that a cut in dole will not directly drive down the cost of groceries, fuel, rent, mortgage payments and all the other things that surprisingly don't disappear along with your income when you lose your source of that income (well unless you're 'connected' in which case there's all sorts of debt forgiveness and loopholes to take advantage of - NAMA, bailouts, tax avoidance etc).

Therefore no, it doesn't make financial sense to take a job that will leave you worse off - by the way some people go on here, you'd think everyone worked for the sake of it and for the glory of Ireland and their employer rather the more down-to-earth reality that it's to pay the bills and get by (and yes, to "feel good about themselves" and progress personally).

The problem in this country is the high cost of living (both through direct but mostly indirect "hidden" taxation), and the high cost and poor quality of services (transport, fuel, electricity, rents etc). This latter affects both the ordinary citizen and business directly.

Foreign Multinationals came here because we had ready access to the EU market, an educated english-speaking workforce with low expectations (having just emerged from another recession at the time), and low taxation.
Oh and the government made so many concessions to these companies that effectively they could do what they like where labour relations and pay was concerned.

Flash forward 15 years and (as already noted) most of these "advantages" are gone. Our core infrastructure (roads, telecoms etc) is piss poor - especially outside Dublin, the good times of "free" money and the Irish insecurity complex/need to "keep up with the Joneses" means we all think we're entitled to live like kings on borrowed money/time, and the cost of doing business in this country is ever increasing as vital services (such as affordable high-speed broadband for example) continue to fall further behind the competition abroad.

The sad fact is that while we should have one of the best infrastructures in Europe, the boom was squandered to the point where former backwards Soviet bloc countries now surpass us in these vital areas.

What's really worrying is we have nothing to replace the multinationals as they leave (and they will - sooner or later) for emerging economies and cheaper workforces further east.

We need to look at ways of eliminating waste and poor productivity (this applies generally in public sector and governmental Ireland), and driving down costs through a mix of proper effective regulation (when needed) and competition, and attract new investment as well as encourage domestic enterprise as enthusiastically as we welcomed the big boys of the USA

If we don't get a handle on the costs of doing business and find something else to do, there won't be (m)any businesses left, and we might as well all start planting spuds again!

BluePlanet

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Can you quote any?

The point is, that Ireland Tax Haven is not a sustainable economic model.

We should be net-contributers to the EU at this point instead of looking for EU charity.
Originally the EU was willing to tolerate Ireland the Tax Haven long enough for the country to get it's act together. Not forever.
It is better for the EU that these spectacularly wealthy companies contribute.

If Ireland cannot get it's house in order to make that happen then maybe it's better from the EU's POV, that those companies setup elsewhere.

the_syco

liammur wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/131-01.html

Low corporation tax has advantages and disadvantages, but MNC's aren't paying enough tax imo and therefore there is a greater burden on the taxpayer. A standardised rate of maybe 20% to 25% is to be welcomed.

Spot the shinner...

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

Profitable companies pay more. If you are unsure about that ask onyone in the lkes of the ESB, where they don't know what to do with their profits.
As for productivity/sick days, that's a seperate issue entirely.

Way to use a monopoly (and my ex boss who didnt pay too much relatively...) as an example :rolleyes:

While the people are friendly and proud of their work, I would not hold the ESB as an example of a successful business especially with some of the waste I seen..., they are where they due to being granted a monopoly by the state, and we are all paying for it thru' the nose.

liammur

BluePlanet wrote: »

The point is, that Ireland Tax Haven is not a sustainable economic model.

We should be net-contributers to the EU at this point instead of looking for EU charity.
Originally the EU was willing to tolerate Ireland the Tax Haven long enough for the country to get it's act together. Not forever.
It is better for the EU that these spectacularly wealthy companies contribute.

If Ireland cannot get it's house in order to make that happen then maybe it's better from the EU's POV, that those companies setup elsewhere.

Good point.
What is little known is that Irish companies employ over 75,000 jobs in America. They're not availing of cheap corp tax rates, instead they're rightly contributing to the country where they are making their profits.

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

Good point.
What is little known is that Irish companies employ over 75,000 jobs in America. They're not availing of cheap corp tax rates, instead they're rightly contributing to the country where they are making their profits.

My company spends a lot of our running costs in US, not Ireland
contributing towards employment there in several datacenters of good people who work hard and are very professional

Do you know why we chose the US and mainland Europe over Ireland (depriving this country of jobs)?

Fast and efficient technicians, cheap electricity and quality network connectivity thats 20x cheaper than here (im talking about using huge amounts, averaging @ several gigabit day and night, more than flows thru INEX exchange here in Ireland at times )

Ireland is not competitive in this area (the so called knowledge economy) unfortunately

I am already thinking of moving chunk of the business to other countries, paying even more taxes would make up the mind for me quickly...

Nino Brown

liammur wrote: »

Good point.
What is little known is that Irish companies employ over 75,000 jobs in America. They're not availing of cheap corp tax rates, instead they're rightly contributing to the country where they are making their profits.

That's very true, but I'm sure there's reasons those companies chose to set-up in America, if we were to raise our corporate tax we don't have any reasons for them to move over here.
If we get labour and energy costs down, then we should definitely look at raising corp tax, but until then it'd be economic suicide.

liammur

ei.sdraob wrote: »

My company spends a lot of our running costs in US, not Ireland
indirectly contributing to employment there in several datacenters

Do you know why we chose the US and mainland Europe over Ireland (depriving this country of jobs)?

Fast and efficient technicians, cheap electricity and fast & quality network connectivity thats 20x cheaper than here (im talking about using huge amounts in averaging @ several gigabit, more than flows thru INEX exchange here in Ireland at times )

Ireland is not competitive in this area (the so called knowledge economy) unfortunately

I am already thinking of moving chunk of the business to other countries, paying even more taxes would make up the mind for me quickly...

There's no doubt we've squandered a great opportunity.
But for how long more can we play dumb with the low corporation tax rate card?

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

There's no doubt we've squandered a great opportunity.
But for how long more can we play dumb with the low corporation tax rate card?

As long as it takes for more Irish people to start own businesses and be tied down to the country.

We had a decade where all the "entrepreneurs" (yep that's commas there) got involved in housing and related business, which is quite sad since credit was available more freely.

If anything we should be cutting this tax to attract more foreign businesses, its already lower in other EU states like Cyprus, and yes we are loosing companies to that country already (several gaming startups for example)

Welease

liammur wrote: »

There's no doubt we've squandered a great opportunity.
But for how long more can we play dumb with the low corporation tax rate card?

FDI needs a reason to come here.. If you remove low Corp. tax.. what would you implement as a replacement? because a replacement needs to be found.. low corp tax hasn't stopped a lot of MNC's relocating elsewhere already, you seem very gung ho to remove our last competitive advantage.

liammur

ei.sdraob wrote: »

As long as it takes for more Irish people to start own businesses and be tied down to the country.

We had a decade where all the "entrepreneurs" (yep that's commas there) got involved in housing and related business, which is quite sad since credit was available more freely.

If anything we should be cutting this tax to attract more foreign businesses, its already lower in other EU states like Cyprus, and yes we are loosing companies to that country already (several gaming startups for example)

The country will run up €20bn debt this year. MNC's can't be in it for the free ride. There are pros and cons, but so far on this thread no one has convinced me that we are pursuing the right strategy in having a corporation tax rate of 12.5%.

BluePlanet

Welease wrote: »

FDI needs a reason to come here.. If you remove low Corp. tax.. what would you implement as a replacement? because a replacement needs to be found.. low corp tax hasn't stopped a lot of MNC's relocating elsewhere already, you seem very gung ho to remove our last competitive advantage.

Is it a competitive advantage or a crutch?
How long do you think the MNC Tax Haven on the periphery of Europe should go on for?
Another 10-20 years?

It'd probably be cheaper for the EU to have a coupe million paddies subsisting on 50€ a week charity; then to continue allowing uncounted billions in tax that could have been collected from these companies if they were operating out of Poland.

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

The country will run up €20bn debt this year. MNC's can't be in it for the free ride. There are pros and cons, but so far on this thread no one has convinced me that we are pursuing the right strategy in having a corporation tax rate of 12.5%.

Lower the rate > attract/retain more companies > create/keep more jobs (we have 400,000 unemployed)

is that reason enough?

liammur

BluePlanet wrote: »

Is it a competitive advantage or a crutch?
.

A very interesting point you raise here, probably beyond most of the population, top* politicians included.

* for the want of a better word.

Welease

BluePlanet wrote: »

Is it a competitive advantage or a crutch?
How long do you think the MNC Tax Haven on the periphery of Europe should go on for?
Another 10-20 years?

It'd probably be cheaper for the EU to have a coupe million paddies subsisting on 50€ a week charity; then to continue allowing uncounted billions in tax that could have been collected from these companies if they were operating out of Poland.

For Ireland?.. a competitive advantage.. one of the few have left..

We don't seem to have much luck attracting them with our high wages, high running costs, and self serving unions/government ... /surprise

In the absence of large amounts of indigenous industry being created without credit from the banks, we need self-financed foreign companies to come in and employ our people, so we can actually get tax revenue from somewhere (and the supporting industries the fuel)..

liammur

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Lower the rate > attract/retain more companies > create/keep more jobs (we have 400,000 unemployed)

is that reason enough?

No.
We are in danger of becoming completely dependant on these companies and allowing them dicate terms and conditions. At any moment in time they can uproot and cause absolute destruction to the economy (Dell in Limerick being the prime example).
I will agree however, that low corporation tax is great for the shareholders.

We need to up our game plan and make Ireland an attractive place to invest for reasons other than low corporation tax.

Count Dooku

ei.sdraob wrote: »

As long as it takes for more Irish people to start own businesses and be tied down to the country.

In country full of left wing populist parties, which are only looking how to milk businesses through high taxes?:eek:

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

No.
We are in danger of becoming completely dependant on these companies and allowing them dicate terms and conditions. At any moment in time they can uproot and cause absolute destruction to the economy (Dell in Limerick being the prime example).
I will agree however, that low corporation tax is great for the shareholders.

We need to up our game plan and make Ireland an attractive place to invest for reasons other than low corporation tax.

So what do you propose?

You would have to implement any of these policies to "Ireland an attractive place to invest" well before you shred the last card we have.

Somehow I doubt you would support measures that would make us more competitive such as dealing with energy costs, lowering min wage, scraping social partnership nonsense etc

Welease

liammur wrote: »

No.
We are in danger of becoming completely dependant on these companies and allowing them dicate terms and conditions. At any moment in time they can uproot and cause absolute destruction to the economy (Dell in Limerick being the prime example).
I will agree however, that low corporation tax is great for the shareholders.

We need to up our game plan and make Ireland an attractive place to invest for reasons other than low corporation tax.

And again, you are asked the question ... how?

These companies are not leaving our shores because of low output or poor workers.. they are leaving because it costs less (in some cases a lot less) to get an equivalent output for less cost.. they are business's not charities..

liammur

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So what do you propose?

You would have to implement any of these policies to "Ireland an attractive place to invest" well before you shred the last card we have.

Somehow I doubt you would support measures that would make us more competitive such as dealing with energy costs, lowering min wage, scraping social partnership nonsense etc

As mentioned earlier, very few people are on the minimum wage working for these companies. But wages and costs of doing business have to be brought into line with our competitors, there is no doubt about that.

Welease

liammur wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, very few people are on the minimum wage working for these companies. But wages and costs of doing business have to be brought into line with our competitors, there is no doubt about that.

So you propose we cut minimum wages, public sector pay, social welfare, tax credit, rates, utlities etc. so we can allow companies to cut costs in order to pay more corp. tax?

liammur

Welease wrote: »

So you propose we cut minimum wages, public sector pay, social welfare, tax credit, rates, utlities etc. so we can allow companies to cut costs in order to pay more corp. tax?

You are in danger of getting distracted from the issue.
Most of the aforementioned will need to be cut significantly regardless.

censuspro

liammur wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, very few people are on the minimum wage working for these companies. But wages and costs of doing business have to be brought into line with our competitors, there is no doubt about that.

If low wages was the answer to economic prosperity, countries like Somalia would be an econmoic superpower.

Welease

liammur wrote: »

You are in danger of getting distracted from the issue.
Most of the aforementioned will need to be cut significantly regardless.

No, you are avoiding the issue..

If you want to remove one of the few reasons left for foreign companies to locate here.. you need to create new reasons..

So what would you do to attract investment?

Tora Bora

liammur wrote: »

Incorrect, ESB have plenty of places to go as they have already diversified in many places around the world.

You'll need to re-read my posts. I simply can't be re-posting the same material in different wording.

ESB is a semi state company. Effectively state owned. Therefore it cannot up sticks and leave. In fact, the last time the board of ESB, got a brain fart, and announced it was about to build and run a power plant in Spain, it was quickly brought to heel by the government.

I have a very strong hunch that you are planning to move to Australia in the near future. Would I be right ?

liammur

Tora Bora wrote: »

I have a very strong hunch that you are planning to move to Australia in the near future. Would I be right ?

No, you are incorrect again lol

Tora Bora

liammur wrote: »

No, you are incorrect again lol

Well, if you don't stop digging soon, you're sure gonna arrive there.

View

censuspro wrote: »

If low wages was the answer to economic prosperity, countries like Somalia would be an econmoic superpower.

True, but then again... if low corporate tax rates are the answer to economic prosperity, countries like Ireland should be an economic superpower.

dunsandin

The real issue is nothing to do with our national corporation tax rate, it will no doubt remain utterly unchanged. I had an interesting conversation with a senior manager of one of our more prominent Pharma ventures, and he explained that what Europe sought was much more subtle and yet much more significant. The real issue is that taxes on profits will fall payable to the jurisdiction within which that profit was realised. IE, where the product passed from the shop shelf into the hand of the consumer. So, If Microsoft here in Ireland produces a copy of Windows, and it gets exported and sold in France, the French exchequer will be entitled to levy whatever rate of "Corporation" tax upon that sale that he Monsieur Le'Exchequer, feels is his due. So, the profits a Corporation realises in a particular final destination market will be taxed and payable to that foreign market. Anybody with a calculator will realise that as a nation with less people in it than the average City in Europe, a hell of a lot more profits are going to be generated on sales abroad, with the Corporate tax falling due abroad. And we can squeal all we like, but we signed up to Lisbon(eventually and under duress), and this is one of the consequences, and its a doosie. Whoever likes can now come on and tell me I'm wrong, but im not, and I was giving out about this twelve months ago, so It aint news to me. Between this, our economic woes generally, we seem to be heading into a fiscal "perfect storm".

View

dunsandin wrote: »

The real issue is nothing to do with our national corporation tax rate, it will no doubt remain utterly unchanged.

That is a major assumption given the state of the country's finances. It might be right but I would suspect the politicians given a choice between cutting even more public services and raising corporate tax rates will be very tempted to go for the least unpopular choice.

dunsandin wrote: »

And we can squeal all we like, but we signed up to Lisbon(eventually and under duress), and this is one of the consequences, and its a doosie.

Lisbon didn't make any changes wrt to Corporate Tax and/or CCCTB.

dunsandin wrote: »

I had an interesting conversation with a senior manager of one of our more prominent Pharma ventures, and he explained that what Europe sought was much more subtle and yet much more significant. The real issue is that taxes on profits will fall payable to the jurisdiction within which that profit was realised. IE, where the product passed from the shop shelf into the hand of the consumer. So, If Microsoft here in Ireland produces a copy of Windows, and it gets exported and sold in France, the French exchequer will be entitled to levy whatever rate of "Corporation" tax upon that sale that he Monsieur Le'Exchequer, feels is his due. So, the profits a Corporation realises in a particular final destination market will be taxed and payable to that foreign market. Anybody with a calculator will realise that as a nation with less people in it than the average City in Europe, a hell of a lot more profits are going to be generated on sales abroad, with the Corporate tax falling due abroad.

Again, you are making assumptions about which, if any, method might be adopted for such a calculation. They were 6 different methods being examined last time I had a look at this. Obviously, each method had different possible outcomes and all the member states are being very careful about the possible effects of the different methods. And yes, Ireland has been actively involved in these discussions all along.

liammur

dunsandin wrote: »

The real issue is that taxes on profits will fall payable to the jurisdiction within which that profit was realised. IE, where the product passed from the shop shelf into the hand of the consumer. So, If Microsoft here in Ireland produces a copy of Windows, and it gets exported and sold in France, the French exchequer will be entitled to levy whatever rate of "Corporation" tax upon that sale that he Monsieur Le'Exchequer, feels is his due. So, the profits a Corporation realises in a particular final destination market will be taxed and payable to that foreign market. .

This is interesting, can anyone confirm this?

George Orwell 1982

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why Intel shareholders must pay for greed of PS unions and FF populism?

Boo hoo. The poor shareholders.

George Orwell 1982

Count Dooku wrote: »

In country full of left wing populist parties, which are only looking how to milk businesses through high taxes?:eek:

The two major political parties in this country are centre right. Unlike other European countries where you have a large left wing and right wing party.

liammur

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

The two major political parties in this country are centre right. Unlike other European countries where you have a large left wing and right wing party.

Unfortunately, that won't be the last time you will have to make that correction.

Scofflaw

liammur wrote: »

The real issue is that taxes on profits will fall payable to the jurisdiction within which that profit was realised. IE, where the product passed from the shop shelf into the hand of the consumer. So, If Microsoft here in Ireland produces a copy of Windows, and it gets exported and sold in France, the French exchequer will be entitled to levy whatever rate of "Corporation" tax upon that sale that he Monsieur Le'Exchequer, feels is his due. So, the profits a Corporation realises in a particular final destination market will be taxed and payable to that foreign market. .

This is interesting, can anyone confirm this?

dunsandin is roughly correct, but has muddied the waters rather with the "Monsieur l'Exchequer" bit, which makes it sound arbitrary and whimsical. It's currently possible for a multi-national company to realise those profits made in France as taxable corporate income in France, and pay French corporation tax on them. The majority of Irish-based MNCs do not do this - they accrue those profits back to Ireland, and pay Irish corporation tax on them, because Irish corporation tax is lower.

That situation will obviously not change on the introduction of CCCTB, and since CCCTB is to be introduced on a voluntary basis, it only makes sense for an MNC to opt for it if it thereby reduces its tax burden, or if the cost reduction through lower compliance costs is greater than the increase in taxes involved in being taxed in each jurisdiction.

cordially,
Scofflaw

liammur

Scofflaw wrote: »

dunsandin is roughly correct, but has muddied the waters rather with the "Monsieur l'Exchequer" bit, which makes it sound arbitrary and whimsical. It's currently possible for a multi-national company to realise those profits made in France as taxable corporate income in France, and pay French corporation tax on them. The majority of Irish-based MNCs do not do this - they accrue those profits back to Ireland, and pay Irish corporation tax on them, because Irish corporation tax is lower.

That situation will obviously not change on the introduction of CCCTB, and since CCCTB is to be introduced on a voluntary basis, it only makes sense for an MNC to opt for it if it thereby reduces its tax burden, or if the cost reduction through lower compliance costs is greater than the increase in taxes involved in being taxed in each jurisdiction.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thanks.

skearon

Mick Regan wrote: »

I remember a lot of discussion here during Lisbon 2 that EU tax harmonisation would not be forced on Ireland. Is this still the case....?

Ireland’s position on corporate tax is unambiguous. Our rate of corporation tax is 12.5% and that will remain. On tax matters, we will uphold the principle of subsidiarity as we have always done. We will resolutely oppose any attempt to introduce tax harmonisation within the European Union either directly or through technical measures such as CCCTB. The principle of unanimity in taxation matters is enshrined in EU law. That principle was further enhanced by the insertion of a legal guarantee in the Lisbon Treaty. Our scepticism about the CCCTB is well known and this scepticism is shared by many Member States. There have been no political decisions taken on the CCCTB at the level of the Council of Ministers.

dunsandin

Scofflaw wrote: »

dunsandin is roughly correct, but has muddied the waters rather with the "Monsieur l'Exchequer" bit, which makes it sound arbitrary and whimsical. It's currently possible for a multi-national company to realise those profits made in France as taxable corporate income in France, and pay French corporation tax on them. The majority of Irish-based MNCs do not do this - they accrue those profits back to Ireland, and pay Irish corporation tax on them, because Irish corporation tax is lower.

That situation will obviously not change on the introduction of CCCTB, and since CCCTB is to be introduced on a voluntary basis, it only makes sense for an MNC to opt for it if it thereby reduces its tax burden, or if the cost reduction through lower compliance costs is greater than the increase in taxes involved in being taxed in each jurisdiction.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dunsandin is not only bang on the nail head, dunsandin was told that this was coming down the rails almost two years ago, and furthermore was told that it would be the death knell for FDI in Ireland as it would remove the last bit of gloss from the case for investing in Ireland.
All the smoke and mirrors about sovereinty is simply so that our esteemed leaders can come back to the electorate and beat their chests and proudly tell us that "THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO OUR TAX RATES - we told those EU lads what was what, we stood up and were counted"!! -While the above that I spelt out is quietly but surely implemented. Net result, our tax rate remains unchanged, but our low rate becomes irrelevant.

Ruefully, Dunsandin.

View

dunsandin wrote: »

Dunsandin is not only bang on the nail head, dunsandin was told that this was coming down the rails almost two years ago, and furthermore was told that it would be the death knell for FDI in Ireland as it would remove the last bit of gloss from the case for investing in Ireland.
All the smoke and mirrors about sovereinty is simply so that our esteemed leaders can come back to the electorate and beat their chests and proudly tell us that "THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO OUR TAX RATES - we told those EU lads what was what, we stood up and were counted"!! -While the above that I spelt out is quietly but surely implemented. Net result, our tax rate remains unchanged, but our low rate becomes irrelevant.

Ruefully, Dunsandin.

What part of Scofflaw's ...

it only makes sense for an MNC to opt for it if it thereby reduces its tax burden, or if the cost reduction through lower compliance costs is greater than the increase in taxes involved in being taxed in each jurisdiction.

.... is hard to understand?

CCCTB could have been introduced under the old post-Nice system just as it can under the post-Lisbon one. For that matter, EU member states acting together completely outside an EU framework, could introduce it if they want.

As for your claims about CCCTB, they are speculation. The member states could opt for a CCCTB system based on "Sales by Origin" just as easily as one based on "Sales by Destination". At this stage, they are busy in Sub-Working Groups pondering on the correct treatment of the deprecation of Intangible assets.

Scofflaw

dunsandin wrote: »

Dunsandin is not only bang on the nail head, dunsandin was told that this was coming down the rails almost two years ago, and furthermore was told that it would be the death knell for FDI in Ireland as it would remove the last bit of gloss from the case for investing in Ireland.
All the smoke and mirrors about sovereinty is simply so that our esteemed leaders can come back to the electorate and beat their chests and proudly tell us that "THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO OUR TAX RATES - we told those EU lads what was what, we stood up and were counted"!! -While the above that I spelt out is quietly but surely implemented. Net result, our tax rate remains unchanged, but our low rate becomes irrelevant.

Ruefully, Dunsandin.

It has been "coming down the rails" for roughly a decade. A lot of people got very enjoyably excited when Commissioner Kovacs suggested enhanced cooperation as a way forward for CCCTB, but that is about two and a half years ago now, and still CCCTB is just a suggestion, with not even a draft proposal to its credit.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dunsandin

Slow but sure,so. Like most big deals.

View

dunsandin wrote: »

Slow but sure,so. Like most big deals.

According to one academic, CCCTB was first proposed in 1963. Based on that we might see a first directive in 20 years time and have it implemented in another 10 or so.

dunsandin

All the good stuff takes time.

Scofflaw

dunsandin wrote: »

Slow but sure,so. Like most big deals.

Scarily, one has to point out that during that entire "slow but sure" time, our government has been building our economy on FDI secured by low corporation tax rates.

It's what I love about Fianna Fáil - behind their incompetence, when you really dig, is even more and bigger incompetence. Never say they can only do the petty stuff - this is strategic level incompetence right here.

awed,
Scofflaw

dunsandin

Scofflaw wrote: »

Scarily, one has to point out that during that entire "slow but sure" time, our government has been building our economy on FDI secured by low corporation tax rates.

It's what I love about Fianna Fáil - behind their incompetence, when you really dig, is even more and bigger incompetence. Never say they can only do the petty stuff - this is strategic level incompetence right here.

awed,
Scofflaw

Brighter minds than mine have long suggested that taking a business stance based upon any form of tax break or lower rate is risky as all that is required to derail your model is a change of policy. -Tax deductable pension contributions being one example. Basing the model for an entire economy on this is certainly a very shaky proposal, and at the whim of higher powers, in this case, the EU.

Agreed, for once!, Dunsandin.

WillieFlynn

liammur wrote: »

No.
We are in danger of becoming completely dependant on these companies and allowing them dicate terms and conditions. At any moment in time they can uproot and cause absolute destruction to the economy (Dell in Limerick being the prime example).

The problem with Limerick was the size of the employer relative to the local economy.

The effect of a Dell sized employer closing in Dublin would be much less, and it would be easier for the employees to get another job. For this reason I would have to think very hard before I would consider moving back to Cork or going any where away from Dublin, if I stay in Ireland. Dublin is still a bit too small for comfort .

What surprised me most was how long Dell stayed in Ireland, stuffing things in boxes is no longer economical in Ireland. Others companies like Gateway, Fruit of the loom, Lowe Alpin, etc have left years ago.

The Dagda

dunsandin wrote: »

The real issue is nothing to do with our national corporation tax rate, it will no doubt remain utterly unchanged. I had an interesting conversation with a senior manager of one of our more prominent Pharma ventures, and he explained that what Europe sought was much more subtle and yet much more significant. The real issue is that taxes on profits will fall payable to the jurisdiction within which that profit was realised. IE, where the product passed from the shop shelf into the hand of the consumer. So, If Microsoft here in Ireland produces a copy of Windows, and it gets exported and sold in France, the French exchequer will be entitled to levy whatever rate of "Corporation" tax upon that sale that he Monsieur Le'Exchequer, feels is his due. So, the profits a Corporation realises in a particular final destination market will be taxed and payable to that foreign market. Anybody with a calculator will realise that as a nation with less people in it than the average City in Europe, a hell of a lot more profits are going to be generated on sales abroad, with the Corporate tax falling due abroad. And we can squeal all we like, but we signed up to Lisbon(eventually and under duress), and this is one of the consequences, and its a doosie. Whoever likes can now come on and tell me I'm wrong, but im not, and I was giving out about this twelve months ago, so It aint news to me. Between this, our economic woes generally, we seem to be heading into a fiscal "perfect storm".

Can people stop argueing about changing coporation tax, this is exactly what the Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base Working Group (CCCTB WG) is all about. Getting the money without going back on the "promises" of Lisbon 2.

This is just how the "powers that be" are going to solve the corporation tax competition issue.

My suspicion (and worry) is FF knew about this... :mad:

Edit: Just to confirm, I believe everything in Dunsandin's post, I quoted it so people could read it.

liammur

WillieFlynn wrote: »

The problem with Limerick was the size of the employer relative to the local economy.

The effect of a Dell sized employer closing in Dublin would be much less, and it would be easier for the employees to get another job. For this reason I would have to think very hard before I would consider moving back to Cork or going any where away from Dublin, if I stay in Ireland. Dublin is still a bit too small for comfort .

What surprised me most was how long Dell stayed in Ireland, stuffing things in boxes is no longer economical in Ireland. Others companies like Gateway, Fruit of the loom, Lowe Alpin, etc have left years ago.

Very true. The real problem in limerick has been no big employer and 1 small one into region since FF got elected in 1997, I'd like an explanation for this, particularly since it was obvious Dell had intended downsizing years before they actually did.
As for you personally, yes, it is wise to analyse the market before moving.The job situation in dublin for any industry is not nearly as bad as elsewhere in country, another failing of our government.

beeno67

dunsandin wrote: »

The real issue is nothing to do with our national corporation tax rate, it will no doubt remain utterly unchanged. I had an interesting conversation with a senior manager of one of our more prominent Pharma ventures, and he explained that what Europe sought was much more subtle and yet much more significant. The real issue is that taxes on profits will fall payable to the jurisdiction within which that profit was realised. IE, where the product passed from the shop shelf into the hand of the consumer. So, If Microsoft here in Ireland produces a copy of Windows, and it gets exported and sold in France, the French exchequer will be entitled to levy whatever rate of "Corporation" tax upon that sale that he Monsieur Le'Exchequer, feels is his due. So, the profits a Corporation realises in a particular final destination market will be taxed and payable to that foreign market. Anybody with a calculator will realise that as a nation with less people in it than the average City in Europe, a hell of a lot more profits are going to be generated on sales abroad, with the Corporate tax falling due abroad. And we can squeal all we like, but we signed up to Lisbon(eventually and under duress), and this is one of the consequences, and its a doosie. Whoever likes can now come on and tell me I'm wrong, but im not, and I was giving out about this twelve months ago, so It aint news to me. Between this, our economic woes generally, we seem to be heading into a fiscal "perfect storm".

That is not the real issue but it is an important issue. After all Ireland will benefit from these changes as well as suffer. Overall effect on the country would not be too great.

The bigger issue is that these changes may affect the decision of multi nationals to locate in The EU at all, never mind Ireland. That is the real issue. This will effect the entire EU economy and as a peripheral part, Ireland will suffer more than most.