* Everything HPAT and Medicine for 2011 *

nikita_can_run

Grand, thank you:)

randylonghorn

AdamD wrote: »

Shows problem solving skills

So do many other things.

nikita_can_run wrote: »

No... You wrote that you get the points for a C1 but I'm just wondering do you get it for under that like a C2?

He was just giving an example, not saying you had to have a minimum of a C1.


(NOW who's confusing them, jumpy? :P)

jumpguy

randylonghorn wrote: »

(NOW who's confusing them, jumpy? :P)

*bangs head off table*

:pac:

AdamD

Most subjects show absolutely no problem-solving skills, maths needs to be encouraged in this country and if people are supposedly capable of achieving 530+ points, they should be capable of doing higher level maths and up until now many of these people have been avoiding it and doing learny-offy subjects instead. So I dont see how its unfair, however it will be a bit silly with people's leaving certs from 2012 onwards being much harder to compare to ours due to these free points.

randylonghorn

AdamD wrote: »

Most subjects show absolutely no problem-solving skills...

Many do if they were taught and assessed correctly, which is part of the move which the SEC seems to be gradually making, in asking questions which require people to *apply* their knowledge ... I'm sure you saw enough grousing in this forum about those questions in various subjects this year? Some subjects don't have much of a problem-solving element, I agree, but maths isn't the only one.

For that matter, remember all the histrionics when Paper I Maths had a few small parts to questions which required people to think outside the box and deal with the unfamiliar?

AdamD wrote: »

... maths needs to be encouraged in this country and if people are supposedly capable of achieving 530+ points, they should be capable of doing higher level maths and up until now many of these people have been avoiding it and doing learny-offy subjects instead.

I'd agree in general, but I don't actually think the ability to do Hons Maths should be such a major factor for medicine as it will now become; there are far more important things for med, and it's actually other areas that have the need for good maths people far more than med.

Yes, problem-solving skills are essential to med ofc, but there are many ways to learn those.

theowen

randylonghorn wrote: »

Many do if they were taught and assessed correctly, which is part of the move which the SEC seems to be gradually making, in asking questions which require people to *apply* their knowledge ... I'm sure you saw enough grousing in this forum about those questions in various subjects this year? Some subjects don't have much of a problem-solving element, I agree, but maths isn't the only one.

For that matter, remember all the histrionics when Paper I Maths had a few small parts to questions which required people to think outside the box and deal with the unfamiliar?

I'd agree in general, but I don't actually think the ability to do Hons Maths should be such a major factor for medicine as it will now become; there are far more important things for med, and it's actually other areas that have the need for good maths people far more than med.

Yes, problem-solving skills are essential to med ofc, but there are many ways to learn those.

Indeed! Perhaps they should exclude certain courses? I just want to make the point that Honors maths should in no way determine if someone does Medicine. I did pass maths, got a c in that, and had a very, very little disadvantage for some things.

This really is going to make it so ye need honors maths for Med, which is a bit sad really. Excludes a huge cohort of people who just are not good at maths, but are excellent at Biology, Chemistry etc, the subjects that are important in Med.

Bbbbolger

To be honest I couldnt give a damn if my doctor was capable of honours maths. There are many other ways to show good problem solving skills. And I'm sure you'll agree that problem solving skills in relation to differentiation and controlling an internal bleed vary greatly. If anyone is capable of passing their exams for 5/6 years of a Medicine course nobody should care if they can add or subtract.

Surely in Medicine the CAO will have to adjust the bonus points for Maths. They've already adjusted the leaving cert points down to make the system fairer. If they allow a full bonus of 25 points to honours maths students they ae effectively cancelling out the work they've already done to provide people with opportunities to access this course.

AdamD

If somebody isnt able to do higher maths I doubt they will pass 6 years of medicine

jumpguy

AdamD wrote: »

If somebody isnt able to do higher maths I doubt they will pass 6 years of medicine

There are hundreds, probably thousands, that have gotten through medicine with OL maths, and have become excellent doctors.

Knowing how to tackle an integration problem is very different from knowing how to tackle a bad case of advanced meningitis.

AdamD

And im sure those people could have done HL maths but choose to do other subjects which are easier to get A1s in. If somebody actually cant handle HL maths, then I cant see them being able handle medicine.

ladytwink

Hi in a slight panick today, was really disappointed with my hpat results at 163 although I got 590 in the mocks and am hoping for the same or better in the Leaving Cert I don't think I have done enough to get medicine this year unfortunately. I know I've left it super last minute but I'd really appreciate any advice in relation to finishing off my cao. I was wondering what would be my best option for the next year especially...ideally I hope to repeat the hpat and get medicine 2012 but if that doesn't work out I don't want to have wasted the year.....please help...

QueenOfLeon

AdamD wrote: »

If somebody isnt able to do higher maths I doubt they will pass 6 years of medicine

Ridiculous. Some of the best people in my class didn't do honours maths. Allocating bonus points for medicine for ANYTHING except one of the sciences (which do come into account in medicine, obviously) is just unfair.

People drop honours maths for all sorts of reasons. The most obvious is to put more work into other, "easier" subjects, in order to get the highest points possible, which for some people is essential in such a competitive environment. Getting an A1 in business or economics or even English is just as necessary for medicine as maths is, so why not concentrate on these subjects if they come easier to a person?

randylonghorn

AdamD wrote: »

If somebody isnt able to do higher maths I doubt they will pass 6 years of medicine

AdamD wrote: »

And im sure those people could have done HL maths but choose to do other subjects which are easier to get A1s in. If somebody actually cant handle HL maths, then I cant see them being able handle medicine.

And I'm sure (from actual knowledge and experience) that you're wrong, and could introduce you to someone who struggled mightily to achieve a C in an OL Maths paper, and who is now one of the top OBGYN consultants in the country.

Pugzilla

Bbbbolger wrote: »

To be honest I couldnt give a damn if my doctor was capable of honours maths. There are many other ways to show good problem solving skills. And I'm sure you'll agree that problem solving skills in relation to differentiation and controlling an internal bleed vary greatly. If anyone is capable of passing their exams for 5/6 years of a Medicine course nobody should care if they can add or subtract.

Surely in Medicine the CAO will have to adjust the bonus points for Maths. They've already adjusted the leaving cert points down to make the system fairer. If they allow a full bonus of 25 points to honours maths students they ae effectively cancelling out the work they've already done to provide people with opportunities to access this course.

Yeah, it doesn't matter if a doctor accidentally adminsters 200 mg of morphine to a patient instead of 20 mg, not as if someone's life depends on it. Oh.

Kind of an exaggeration, but still Honours Maths is one of the few LC subjects that actually tests logic and applied problem solving that can't simply be learned through blunt repetition. Western Medicine is after all evidence based, hence based on logic. Doctors do have to perform differential diagnoses ya know.

If the extra points apply to medicine it will hardly compromise the quality of doctors produced, it would most likely marginally increase it.

ozzz

Random Question but I'm just curious as to what you do RandyLongHorn. Are you a student?

Bbbbolger

Well unfortunately the Leaving Cert doesnt give you the opportunity to do everything you're "able to do." I was well able to do honours Maths this year. If I had worked very hard at it I could've achieved a B3 or maybe even a B2. However I thought I would be better served putting my time into getting A1's in subjects like English, Biology, Geography etc. because to get into Medicine at all it demands very high points. Are you telling me you think it's fair that the other thousands of students who do what I did are being put at a disadvatage to those who stick with Maths?

If someone is "able" for Medicine they are more than likely able for most Leaving Cert subject at honours level, excluding previously unexperienced languages. Unfortunately we have to choose what subjects we can do to obtain maximum points. Other than the fact that I have to do Maths to get into pretty much any course I would've dropped it in 5th year. There is a reason Maths has an OD3 requirement for Medicine...because proficiency in it is simply not necessary to be a doctor.

AdamD

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Ridiculous. Some of the best people in my class didn't do honours maths. Allocating bonus points for medicine for ANYTHING except one of the sciences (which do come into account in medicine, obviously) is just unfair.

People drop honours maths for all sorts of reasons. The most obvious is to put more work into other, "easier" subjects, in order to get the highest points possible, which for some people is essential in such a competitive environment. Getting an A1 in business or economics or even English is just as necessary for medicine as maths is, so why not concentrate on these subjects if they come easier to a person?

The bonus points are for all courses, not just Medicine.

Fair enough Randy, can see them making the bonus points not count for medicine anyway.

QueenOfLeon

Pugzilla wrote: »

Yeah, it doesn't matter if a doctor accidentally adminsters 200 mg of morphine to a patient instead of 20 mg, not as if someone's life depends on it. Oh.

Kind of an exaggeration, but still Honours Maths is one of the few LC subjects that actually tests logic and applied problem solving that can't simply be learned through blunt repetition. Western Medicine is after all evidence based, hence based on logic. Doctors do have to perform differential diagnoses ya know.

Eh, of course it is. What you've described is common sense, which isn't going to be taught in honours maths, and if it isn't picked up during 6 years of medicine well theres where the problem lies! :rolleyes:

Pugzilla wrote: »

If the extra points apply to medicine it will hardly compromise the quality of doctors produced, it would most likely marginally increase it.

Erm, why? Yes, it'll make the quality of the maths skills of the doctors higher. Being a "good doctor" is a mixture of a good personality, a competent manner of dealing with the public, being able to recall what you have learned from college and previous experience, and a good knowledge of the topics of medicine that you need. None of which are tested in honours maths, or any leaving cert subject. The leaving cert does not prepare you for the job you will have in 4/5/6 years time, it just allocates you your college place.

QueenOfLeon

AdamD wrote: »

The bonus points are for all courses, not just Medicine.

I'm aware. Medicine is what we're talking about here.

Bbbbolger

Pugzilla wrote: »

Yeah, it doesn't matter if a doctor accidentally adminsters 200 mg of morphine to a patient instead of 20 mg, not as if someone's life depends on it. Oh.

Kind of an exaggeration, but still Honours Maths is one of the few LC subjects that actually tests logic and applied problem solving that can't simply be learned through blunt repetition. Western Medicine is after all evidence based, hence based on logic. Doctors do have to perform differential diagnoses ya know.

If the extra points apply to medicine it will hardly compromise the quality of doctors produced, it would most likely marginally increase it.

Realistically, I think we can all agree that people who get into Medicine courses are intelligent. To achieve the results needed to get a place on the course they are going to have some proficiency in Maths. I just don't see why an unfair advantage should be given to someone who prioritised Maths over Biology or Chemistry; subjects which are more important to Medicine. In courses with high points where Maths is not very necessary, such as Medicine, bonus points should not apply as they only serve to cut off more and more perfectly suitable people from the course.

randylonghorn

Pugzilla wrote: »

Yeah, it doesn't matter if a doctor accidentally adminsters 200 mg of morphine to a patient instead of 20 mg ...

And you need LC Hons Maths to tell the difference between 20 and 200 now? I know they keep talking about dropping standards, but I didn't think it was that bad!

Pugzilla wrote: »

Kind of an exaggeration, but still Honours Maths is one of the few LC subjects that actually tests logic and applied problem solving that can't simply be learned through blunt repetition. Western Medicine is after all evidence based, hence based on logic. Doctors do have to perform differential diagnoses ya know.

I've already addressed that above.

Pugzilla wrote: »

If the extra points apply to medicine it will hardly compromise the quality of doctors produced, it would most likely marginally increase it.

It may also exclude some very good potential doctors, and for the wrong reasons.

ozzz wrote: »

Random Question but I'm just curious as to what you do RandyLongHorn. Are you a student?

I was ... >_>

And now I deal with 'em! :P

randylonghorn

Bbbbolger wrote: »

Realistically, I think we can all agree that people who get into Medicine courses are intelligent. To achieve the results needed to get a place on the course they are going to have some proficiency in Maths. I just don't see why an unfair advantage should be given to someone who prioritised Maths over Biology or Chemistry; subjects which are more important to Medicine. In courses with high points where Maths is not very necessary, such as Medicine, bonus points should not apply as they only serve to cut off more and more perfectly suitable people from the course.

And let's remember that the whole reason for introducing the HPAT (whether it's worked or not) was because many people argued, including within the medical establishment, that while excellent LC results were important, there were other factors which were also important and which they should try to take into account ... in other words, that the fact that candidates got 590-600 points didn't necessarily make them better doctors than those who got 580.

Now, due to employer lobby groups putting pressure on the Minister, who put pressure on the colleges (only one of which was fully in support of the idea) re: bonus points, it seems that Hons Maths will become a major deciding factor in getting a place in med. Moving backwards, we are!

Pugzilla

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Eh, of course it is. What you've described is common sense, which isn't going to be taught in honours maths, and if it isn't picked up during 6 years of medicine well theres where the problem lies! :rolleyes:



Erm, why? Yes, it'll make the quality of the maths skills of the doctors higher. Being a "good doctor" is a mixture of a good personality, a competent manner of dealing with the public, being able to recall what you have learned from college and previous experience, and a good knowledge of the topics medicine that you need. None of which are tested in honours maths, or any leaving cert subject. The leaving cert does not prepare you for the job you will have in 4/5/6 years time, it just allocates you your college place.

Don't see how being good at maths is incompatible with these traits. The HPAT was already introduced, in theory, to show preference for these qualities. In the US, College level Calculus I or II is a prerequisite for admission to medical school along with a boatload of other classes, extracurriculars, volunteering, life experience, leadership ability....

If these selection criteria are good enough for John Hopkins or Harvard, they're good enough for Irish Medical Schools.

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Allocating bonus points for medicine for ANYTHING except one of the sciences (which do come into account in medicine, obviously) is just unfair.

By the way, UK medical schools count A-Levels Maths as equal to the other sciences for entry requirements.

QueenOfLeon

ladytwink wrote: »

Hi in a slight panick today, was really disappointed with my hpat results at 163 although I got 590 in the mocks and am hoping for the same or better in the Leaving Cert I don't think I have done enough to get medicine this year unfortunately. I know I've left it super last minute but I'd really appreciate any advice in relation to finishing off my cao. I was wondering what would be my best option for the next year especially...ideally I hope to repeat the hpat and get medicine 2012 but if that doesn't work out I don't want to have wasted the year.....please help...

Firstly, obviously leave medicine on the CAO, you just never know.

After that, would you intend to try the graduate route in a few years time, or would you prefer a more job-orientated degree now, or something like a science degree?

If you're interested particularly in patient care, there are always things like nursing, physio, occupational therapy or speech and language therapy. Of course, don't go into them lightly, they're tough courses but you should think about whether or not they're things you'd like to do.

The graduate route is not easy, but there is a lot of information on the Health Sciences Education Forum about primary degrees before doing it. Science or biomedical science are always very popular as you can pick similiar modules to what will be done in graduate medicine.

QueenOfLeon

Pugzilla wrote: »

Don't see how being good at maths is incompatible with these traits

Could you point out which of these traits are particularly enhanced if you're good at maths? I'm not saying they're incompatible, of course you can be good at maths AND be a competent doctor, I'm saying its not essential.

Pugzilla wrote: »

The HPAT was already introduced, in theory, to show preference for these qualities. In the US, College level Calculus I or II is a prerequisite for admission to medical school along with a boatload of other classes, extracurriculars, volunteering, life experience, leadership ability....

If these selection criteria are good enough for John Hopkins or Harvard, they're good enough for Irish Medical Schools.

Can I ask if you're studying medicine? I did honours maths, and I got an A1. I know people who did pass maths, who are getting similiar results as me, who get on just as well with patients we see as I do, and are just as competent as anyone else who did honours.

Bbbbolger

I dont think people are saying that Maths is incompatable with these traits, but that honours maths is not required more so than other subjects to display them. Proficiency in Maths should be shown by all college level students but giving an advatage to honours students in a course where Maths is not a major component is the major problem we have.

ladytwink

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Firstly, obviously leave medicine on the CAO, you just never know.

After that, would you intend to try the graduate route in a few years time, or would you prefer a more job-orientated degree now, or something like a science degree?

If you're interested particularly in patient care, there are always things like nursing, physio, occupational therapy or speech and language therapy. Of course, don't go into them lightly, they're tough courses but you should think about whether or not they're things you'd like to do.

The graduate route is not easy, but there is a lot of information on the Health Sciences Education Forum about primary degrees before doing it. Science or biomedical science are always very popular as you can pick similiar modules to what will be done in graduate medicine.

Will do. Ya was thinkin about putting down biomed or psychology with french as number 4 or 5 and trying graduate route..I know it's a long way round but I just know medicine is what I want to do..

My Leaving Cert subjects are Math Irish English French Business Biology Home Ec Ag Science and LCVP-all honours (my school doesn't offer chemistry or physics and couldnt source any decent tutor to do external classes..couldnt really afford it either...:cool: ) anyway was thinking biomed would benefit me by giving me a grounding in physics and chemistry even just for the 1st year. If I repeated the Hpat and got medicine 2012 5 year ..would it be foolish to just drop whatever degree programme I found myself in?.. I don't suppose there's any "transfer option" that I haven't heard of yet?lol

..sorry if some of these questions seem a bit deluded..it's probably just my desperation talking!:rolleyes:

ozzz

randylonghorn wrote: »

I was ... >_>

And now I deal with 'em! :P

Is it that big a deal? Just say it- I'm curious :P

What kind of Teacher

QueenOfLeon

ladytwink wrote: »

Will do. Ya was thinkin about putting down biomed or psychology with french as number 4 or 5 and trying graduate route..I know it's a long way round but I just know medicine is what I want to do..

If its what you want to do well then you should go for it whatever way you can

ladytwink wrote: »

My Leaving Cert subjects are Math Irish English French Business Biology Home Ec Ag Science and LCVP-all honours (my school doesn't offer chemistry or physics and couldnt source any decent tutor to do external classes..couldnt really afford it either...:cool: ) anyway was thinking biomed would benefit me by giving me a grounding in physics and chemistry even just for the 1st year. If I repeated the Hpat and got medicine 2012 5 year ..would it be foolish to just drop whatever degree programme I found myself in?.. I don't suppose there's any "transfer option" that I haven't heard of yet?lol

In my experience, most science courses start off with a general year of physics, chemistry, biology and maths (with an extra where applicable, like a biomedical science module for that course etc). A lot of people do take that route if the LC is good enough, reapply for the CAO in january, then sit the HPAT, and take the new offer. It is a good route to take, as if you don't get it again, at least you're one year into a relevant degree so you haven't wasted a year just to sit the hpat

Have a look through here, there is a GAMSAT thread so you might find some people's posts about what degree they did previously.

randylonghorn

ozzz wrote: »

Is it that big a deal? Just say it- I'm curious :P

What kind of Teacher

I'm not a teacher, at least as the term is specifically used in Ireland; when I graduated I taught briefly at third level before going into youth work for a couple of years; I'm now back working in third level.