In a stopper, what's the worst that can happen?

yomchi

Hi folks,

Im a newbie to Kayaking so I'll be firing a couple of questions out hoping for some reassuring answers

I was up at the sluice in Lucan this week it looks savage. What's the worst that can happen in such stoppers? Can they hold you forever? Or will you always get flung out at some point?

ozt9vdujny3srf

It really depends on the stopper. Most of them flush easily, some of them wont flush you until you are out of your boat, & some of them wont flush you at all.

The wave / hole at the at the sluice is very flushy at all water levels.

Experience is the only way to figure out which holes are good and which are bad, but if you are interested there is a really good section on it in Franco Ferrero: Whitewater Safety & Rescue.

In terms of you looking for reassurance: As river kayaking is a water sport with hazards (albeit very easy to avoid on the liffey) it comes with an inherent risk of drowning. The best thing you can do to make sure you know how to be safe and have more fun on the water is to get yourself some coaching, or get yourself out padding with some more experienced boaters who'll share their knowledge. On a river like the liffey, if you know what hazards to look out for then the risk of injury / death is prbably no higher than it is when crossing the road.

thetonynator

Always avoid going right on Wrens nest in a flood . .. worst stopper on the liffey IMO . .

yomchi

Omar Obnoxious Mourner wrote: »

It really depends on the stopper. Most of them flush easily, some of them wont flush you until you are out of your boat, & some of them wont flush you at all.

The wave / hole at the at the sluice is very flushy at all water levels.

Experience is the only way to figure out which holes are good and which are bad, but if you are interested there is a really good section on it in Franco Ferrero: Whitewater Safety & Rescue.

In terms of you looking for reassurance: As river kayaking is a water sport with hazards (albeit very easy to avoid on the liffey) it comes with an inherent risk of drowning. The best thing you can do to make sure you know how to be safe and have more fun on the water is to get yourself some coaching, or get yourself out padding with some more experienced boaters who'll share their knowledge. On a river like the liffey, if you know what hazards to look out for then the risk of injury / death is prbably no higher than it is when crossing the road.

Thanks for that, one of my best mates is an instructor down in WWKC so he's been with me every time I've been out. He also advised that Franco Ferrero book so I'm going to try pick it up today.
The sluice looks nasty as hell but the lads made it look easy. They weren't allowing me to run it either way as I still haven't the skill to run the section down into it, I'd slap the wall id say and swim for a bit. I'm looking forward to doing it some day though.

yomchi

thetonynator wrote: »

Always avoid going right on Wrens nest in a flood . .. worst stopper on the liffey IMO . .

Yeh I ran that in very low water, the stopper wasn't an issue on the right that's where that young girl drowned i believe.

Chuchoter

yomchi wrote: »

Yeh I ran that in very low water, the stopper wasn't an issue on the right that's where that young girl drowned i believe.

Someone drowned?! I never knew that was a dangerous one! Thats so scary :eek:

christramp

Stoppers are a part of our chosen sport and every paddler has a free choice to run them, avoid them or walk them. It depends on each river, skill level, stopper size and potential consequences.
Ive seen loads of times where someone clears a stopper and then relaxes throws the hands up holding the paddle in celebration only to be brought back into the stopper and getting a cycle wash followed by a wet exit.
As has been mentioned before read Franco Ferrero whitewater safety and rescue - It goes into detail about surface stoppers, deep recirculating stoppers and double recirculation stoppers. These are all advanced to a degree and they need a lot of experience to spot and know how to get through them or to not go through them. Rely heavily on others around you that have experience. If you are ever in doubt or do not have confidence in the crew you are with then pass on it.
one of the most important bits to look for is the shape of the stopper and the size of the foam pile it creates. If when you look down on the stopper from the river above and it looks like a frown then avoid as if you get caught, there is a difficulty in being able to get out as the towback is recirculting back into the stopper. if it looks like a smiley face then the towback is recirculating into the outflow and will flush boats and you out.
Also the reason weirs are so dangerous are that they are closed, in that the stopper is uniform with no break to flush out from. Most natural stoppers will have a weakness that you can work towards and flush out.
Dont totally avoid them, know where the small ones are that are not very grabby and surround yourself with experience and safety and learn how to support yourself and to work your way out of them - this will be invaluable in the rare instance you may get stuck in a stopper.
Chris
www.kayakhut.com

christramp

Stoppers are a part of our chosen sport and every paddler has a free choice to run them, avoid them or walk them. It depends on each river, skill level, stopper size and potential consequences.
Ive seen loads of times where someone clears a stopper and then relaxes throws the hands up holding the paddle in celebration only to be brought back into the stopper and getting a cycle wash followed by a wet exit.
As has been mentioned before read Franco Ferrero whitewater safety and rescue - It goes into detail about surface stoppers, deep recirculating stoppers and double recirculation stoppers. These are all advanced to a degree and they need a lot of experience to spot and know how to get through them or to not go through them. Rely heavily on others around you that have experience. If you are ever in doubt or do not have confidence in the crew you are with then pass on it.
one of the most important bits to look for is the shape of the stopper and the size of the foam pile it creates. If when you look down on the stopper from the river above and it looks like a frown then avoid as if you get caught, there is a difficulty in being able to get out as the towback is recirculting back into the stopper. if it looks like a smiley face then the towback is recirculating into the outflow and will flush boats and you out.
Also the reason weirs are so dangerous are that they are closed, in that the stopper is uniform with no break to flush out from. Most natural stoppers will have a weakness that you can work towards and flush out.
Dont totally avoid them, know where the small ones are that are not very grabby and surround yourself with experience and safety and learn how to support yourself and to work your way out of them - this will be invaluable in the rare instance you may get stuck in a stopper.
Chris
www.kayakhut.com

yomchi

crayolastereo wrote: »

Someone drowned?! I never knew that was a dangerous one! Thats so scary :eek:

Yeh two people unfortunately. The girl fell into a nasty part of the weir and I believe a young boy drowned there a good few years back. Wrens is probably one of the most dangerous to the untrained eye, but that's only the right hand side of it as you come down the river.

yomchi

christramp wrote: »

Stoppers are a part of our chosen sport and every paddler has a free choice to run them, avoid them or walk them. It depends on each river, skill level, stopper size and potential consequences.
Ive seen loads of times where someone clears a stopper and then relaxes throws the hands up holding the paddle in celebration only to be brought back into the stopper and getting a cycle wash followed by a wet exit.
As has been mentioned before read Franco Ferrero whitewater safety and rescue - It goes into detail about surface stoppers, deep recirculating stoppers and double recirculation stoppers. These are all advanced to a degree and they need a lot of experience to spot and know how to get through them or to not go through them. Rely heavily on others around you that have experience. If you are ever in doubt or do not have confidence in the crew you are with then pass on it.
one of the most important bits to look for is the shape of the stopper and the size of the foam pile it creates. If when you look down on the stopper from the river above and it looks like a frown then avoid as if you get caught, there is a difficulty in being able to get out as the towback is recirculting back into the stopper. if it looks like a smiley face then the towback is recirculating into the outflow and will flush boats and you out.
Also the reason weirs are so dangerous are that they are closed, in that the stopper is uniform with no break to flush out from. Most natural stoppers will have a weakness that you can work towards and flush out.
Dont totally avoid them, know where the small ones are that are not very grabby and surround yourself with experience and safety and learn how to support yourself and to work your way out of them - this will be invaluable in the rare instance you may get stuck in a stopper.
Chris
www.kayakhut.com

Thanks for that Chris, great info there. I did the rescue course at the club on Wednesday night gone and it covered all the different types of stoppers you mentioned, smiley and frowny!
We also got to see some deep recirculating stoppers in the slide show, they look harmless but are pretty lethal in some cases. The funny thing I thought was that the more splashy and turbulent on top the stopper is, the less likely it is to be overly dangerous. Like for example to me a few weeks back, the sluice in Lucan looked like an animal that would just eat you alive, having learned about it, it's actually just a big pile of water thrashing around on top and is one of the safest play spots to be on.

We're doing the practical rescue end of things now on Sunday coming in Wicklow so there'll be plenty of swimming around in stoppers

lasalle

here is something that could happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE5N52V3IRk

Chuchoter

lasalle wrote: »

here is something that could happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE5N52V3IRk

That was a scary video :eek: Why did he throw the paddle away the idiot? He's lucky he didn't drown. His friends weren't much help either, the pink boat just went straight down on top of him

pmccormack

crayolastereo wrote: »

That was a scary video :eek: Why did he throw the paddle away the idiot? He's lucky he didn't drown. His friends weren't much help either, the pink boat just went straight down on top of him

The Pink boat was probably trying to Knock him out of the hole the only reason he didnt get a beating is the deck popped and he got flushed out as the kayak carried more weight.
He is lucky he didnt drown but i think his friends did pretty good considering the type of feature and since his head barely broke the water lots of ropes and live bate at the end takes Balls to put yourself in there. Look at footage all the paddlers where in Topos and throwing the paddle away was prob the equivalent of a free wheel . Bet you if he ran that drop again he would have paddle in his hands.

Thats in Corsica I believe but there are plenty of places in Ireland where you can paddle 99% of the time and its fine but that one day where water levels are certain level and conditions make features totally different so always know what your getting into.

adrianshanahan

Hey,

As Patrick correctly said that slide / fall is in Corsica and is natural formation akin to a Low head dam.

Its a bit of a classic video that has done the rounds many times, the shape of the feature has more to do with him getting "helded" than the throwing away of his paddles.

The rescue that followed was disorganized at best but I have equal headless chicken acts here happen at home.

What I would say is of course be aware of all river features and experience going forward will stand to you as time goes on. Lest not forgetting complacency can bread contempt so be careful. Your just starting out enjoy your paddling and best of luck with boating.


Adrian

yomchi

crayolastereo wrote: »

That was a scary video :eek: Why did he throw the paddle away the idiot? He's lucky he didn't drown. His friends weren't much help either, the pink boat just went straight down on top of him

Jeez all that looks so avoidable. There's a decent size boil line on that piece of water and if I'm right it looks like a deep recycler - heading into it without a paddle is crazy stuff. There's a lot to be said for having good knowledge of the piece of water you're going to paddle.

We've a rescue day planned for tomorrow so we'll cover most of that stuff I hope

Trevor E

thetonynator wrote: »

Always avoid going right on Wrens nest in a flood . .. worst stopper on the liffey IMO . .

yomchi wrote: »

Yeh I ran that in very low water, the stopper wasn't an issue on the right that's where that young girl drowned i believe.

crayolastereo wrote: »

Someone drowned?! I never knew that was a dangerous one! Thats so scary :eek:

yomchi wrote: »

Yeh two people unfortunately. The girl fell into a nasty part of the weir and I believe a young boy drowned there a good few years back. Wrens is probably one of the most dangerous to the untrained eye, but that's only the right hand side of it as you come down the river.

Hey
Stoppers can be a real stopper (excuse the pun) mentally for a lot of paddlers. In the case of the young girl dying in wrens I think the facts are getting muddled. She wasn’t a kayaker, and she didn't drown because of a stopper. She slipped jumping across the fish shoot thing on the right and fell in and there was a tree in it which she got trapped under. I believe it all happened in low water also during the summer time.

In my opinion I think we as kayakers have become too conservative and we've the lost the lets give it a go attitude. Also i've learnt to take most kayakers stories with a large pinch of salt. I m not suggesting blind folding ourselves and heading down the Dargle on our first day but if you want to learn get a couple of friends you trust and go and experiment.