Marathon Finish Line...Scene 1; Take 2 - Location: Barcelona

Mr Slow

digger2d2 wrote: »

Talk about running into the wind...I was behind a guy in the DCM who let a material ripping fart:eek: and my legs were so sore that I couldn't move left or right to escape the...the.....What was it called in Top Gun?

Jet Wash!

shazkea

mrslow wrote: »

Ya big girls blouse, get out there and run into the wind, it's liberating.

In the immortal words of Yoda Into exile I must go, failed have I...as she shuffles away in shame

shazkea

digger2d2 wrote: »

Talk about running into the wind...I was behind a guy in the DCM who let a material ripping fart:eek: and my legs were so sore that I couldn't move left or right to escape the...the.....What was it called in Top Gun?

Jet Wash....

Bet that was his strategy to get across the line quicker and get rid of all the competition around him...

Mr Slow

shazkea wrote: »

Bet that was his strategy to get across the line quicker and get rid of all the competition around him...

Forward thrust!

digger2d2

shazkea wrote: »

Bet that was his strategy to get across the line quicker and get rid of all the competition around him...

All he had to do was bounce on his elbow and he was going to finish in front of me...:(

Mr Slow

digger2d2 wrote: »

All he had to do was bounce on his elbow and he was going to finish in front of me...:(

Next time Digger you'll be the farting pirate!

shazkea

digger2d2 wrote: »

All he had to do was bounce on his elbow and he was going to finish in front of me...:(

So are out for retribution in Barcelona then...i.e. have you got the weekend pass from OH!

claralara

mrslow wrote: »

I was going to offer to cheer you on in a risque manner at some critical point in the half and then not turn up but that would be mean :P

I think the fear of that would have me afraid to even cross the starting line. Aaaggh MY EYES!

You are a futile aspect to any chance of success I may have mrs low.

digger2d2

shazkea wrote: »

So are out for retribution in Barcelona then...i.e. have you got the weekend pass from OH!

Still not sure about Barcelona (mental and physical scars etc.) OH would love me to leave her in peace for that weekend and then for good...;)

digger2d2

mrslow wrote: »

Next time Digger you'll be the farting pirate!

God help the poor parrot on my shoulder.....;)

Mr Slow

digger2d2 wrote: »

God help the poor parrot on my shoulder.....;)

May he rest in peace.

shazkea

It’s a step back week so LSR distance is 8 miles. As I’m away for the weekend I decided to get it done this evening. Treadmill was not an option for 8 miles so time to brave the elements and get out there. While out there to distract myself from wind and rain, I started thinking of the changes in my life style since I discovered running and honestly I think I’ve lost my mind for the following reasons...

1. I’ve checked the weather forum on this site to see the longer term forecast in case it messes with my training for winter – I never check the weather!
2. A stairs is no longer simple steps; nope the bottom step is used as a stretching device to loosen those calves...I do not need to do that every time I go up or down a stairs!!
3. On a similar note bathroom breaks during work are a chance to stretch any muscle that I think I have a niggle in (imaginary or otherwise)...
4. I’m wondering of ways to get out of chirstmas party invites because they clash with a race or LSR and I can’t handle running with a hangover
5. I scheduled an 18 mile LSR on Christmas day – will say no more there!
6. I’ve given up chocolate (one of my fav things on earth) to help me run longer and faster – I need a miracle not a lack of chocolate!
7. I can’t remember the last time I shopped for proper clothes but I can remember the last time I shopped for sports clothes – yesterday looking for a high-viz jacket
8. I’m writing this on forum of like-minded people because my friends and family think I’m nuts

Yup I’ve lost the plot but on the other hand it’s worth it. I had an ~8 mile battle with the elements this evening and kicked its ass (albeit very slowly) and more importantly I loved every minute of it. So if this is madness, bring on some more please!
Distance: 7.87
Time: 1:24:3
Avg Pace: 10:45

christeb

well done - it's not easy with the giggly season coming up - I seriously need to adapt my strategy of consuming alcohol too. Never mind running with a hangover, I can hardly walk the next day...

Good to have these aspirations at least, see you on the startline in Barce

claralara

shazkea wrote: »

It’s a step back week so LSR distance is 8 miles. As I’m away for the weekend I decided to get it done this evening. Treadmill was not an option for 8 miles so time to brave the elements and get out there. While out there to distract myself from wind and rain, I started thinking of the changes in my life style since I discovered running and honestly I think I’ve lost my mind for the following reasons...

1. I’ve checked the weather forum on this site to see the longer term forecast in case it messes with my training for winter – I never check the weather! This was the last thing I did before I left work in the hope that my foot will be ok to run on in the morning and the weather would behave. Although even the threat of rain in the am just had me thinking whether I'd need my light or heavier rain jacket. Maybe the heavier one without the sleeves. Though the pockets on the light one are better. Hmmm. Claralara - you're on a conference call. Pay attention!
2. A stairs is no longer simple steps; nope the bottom step is used as a stretching device to loosen those calves...I do not need to do that every time I go up or down a stairs!! But it looks so hardcore.
3. On a similar note bathroom breaks during work are a chance to stretch any muscle that I think I have a niggle in (imaginary or otherwise)... Plus the bathroom breaks are becoming far too frequent because of the copious amount of water being consumed. Pre hydrate, re hydrate! Who am I kidding, I run 10 miles a week!
4. I’m wondering of ways to get out of chirstmas party invites because they clash with a race or LSR and I can’t handle running with a hangover I am organising all the christmas parties and dinners to suit my schedule...everyone thinks I'm great for taking on the hassle. Haha. Suckers.
5. I scheduled an 18 mile LSR on Christmas day – will say no more there! Can't say I'm quite there :rolleyes:
6. I’ve given up chocolate (one of my fav things on earth) to help me run longer and faster – I need a miracle not a lack of chocolate! I just had granola and raspberry yoghurt as a 'treat' with a cup of tea...
7. I can’t remember the last time I shopped for proper clothes but I can remember the last time I shopped for sports clothes – yesterday looking for a high-viz jacket Snap. It's in the post. The only reason people will miss me is if giving up chocolate and training actually works...is it a bird, is it a train??
8. I’m writing this on forum of like-minded people because my friends and family think I’m nuts. Ding ding ding. And I have to explain that I don't even touch the surface of the madness of most people on here!

Yup I’ve lost the plot but on the other hand it’s worth it. I had an ~8 mile battle with the elements this evening and kicked its ass (albeit very slowly) and more importantly I loved every minute of it. So if this is madness, bring on some more please!

I had to work through lunch because I was so busy. I then offered to go out in the roaring wind and rain to do the registered post because I wanted to get germolene and blister plasters. An umbrellla that was bigger than me nearly had me under a car. It was worth it.

I then got stood up for a cinema date by a friend. I was delighted thinking that God wanted me to go for a run because I now had my plasters and cream and free time. It didn't happen - I think the blister is infected. Do I care about the infection? No. I care that I had to spend the windy rainy evening on the couch bathing my rotten foot. Nice.

And now I'm getting grumpy that I won't be in a position to run into work tomorrow which means I'm going to have to spend an extra hour in bed! :mad:


Distance: 7.87
Time: 1:24:3
Avg Pace: 10:45

I love it - a good thought for every mile!! Good running!

jcsmum

I have nothing to add..... words fail me. :D

shazkea

Plan for week Nov 8th

Monday | 3 Miles
Tuesday | Bike 40 mins
Wednesday | 4 Miles
Thursday | 60 Min Cross
Friday |Rest
Saturday | 8 miles - Marathon Cooldown run in Park
Sunday | 60 Min Cross

7th November

Absolutely nothing - died of a hangover and had to eat a chocolate muffin for medicial purposes! 4 miles never happened - why I thought I would run this after a weekend on the tiles in London, I do not know. Glad to see old Shaz has not completely disappeared!!

8th November

Plan was 3 miles PMP. It was an awful night for a run. It lashed rain and the wind was so arctic, it tore the ears off me. Time to switch from the cap to the wooly hat I think. It was my first time running in thunder and lightening too . So overall I will describe this run as character building!!

Distance: 3.03
Time: 27.47
Avg Pace: 9.11 mins/mile (which was not PMP pace as I planned!!!)

shazkea

christeb wrote: »

well done - it's not easy with the giggly season coming up - I seriously need to adapt my strategy of consuming alcohol too. Never mind running with a hangover, I can hardly walk the next day...

Good to have these aspirations at least, see you on the startline in Barce

Thanks christeb and totally agree that walking and hangovers don't mix let alone running!!

Will see you in Barca but I'm sure you'll be much further up the front of that line that I will

Mr Slow

shazkea wrote: »

8th November

Plan was 3 miles PMP. It was an awful night for a run. It lashed rain and the wind was so arctic, it tore the ears off me. Time to switch from the cap to the wooly hat I think. It was my first time running in thunder and lightening too . So overall I will describe this run as character building!!

Distance: 3.03
Time: 27.47
Avg Pace: 9.11 mins/mile

What pace are you running your LSR's?

shazkea

mrslow wrote: »

What pace are you running your LSR's?

Actual PMP should be 10 mins for around a 4:25 marathon - and according to McMillan my LSR pace should be on avg 10:45. That's my plan at the mo anyway!

Although the plan this eve was to do the 3 at PMP, that went out the window with the rain lashing down on me and also wanted to get out of that lightening! So went a bit faster than I planned!

Mr Slow

shazkea wrote: »

Actual PMP should be 10 mins for around a 4:25 marathon - and according to McMillan my LSR pace should be on avg 10:45. That's my plan at the mo anyway!

Although the plan this eve was to do the 3 at PMP, that went out the window with the rain lashing down on me and also wanted to get out of that lightening! So went a bit faster than I planned!

I'm planning my next training around a 30 sec difference between LSR and PMP, I think it'll leave me with plenty of welly for the second half, I thought during training for DCM I'd magic 90 secs a mile in the race based on advice to run LSR's 60 - 90 secs slower but it didn't work that way for me at least.

I think you're spot on with your plan, the additional 20's will help too!

shazkea

mrslow wrote: »

I'm planning my next training around a 30 sec difference between LSR and PMP, I think it'll leave me with plenty of welly for the second half, I thought during training for DCM I'd magic 90 secs a mile in the race based on advice to run LSR's 60 - 90 secs slower but it didn't work that way for me at least.

I think you're spot on with your plan, the additional 20's will help too!

Thanks, will def keep that in mind when doing LSR's and try & keep them to roughly 30 - 40 secs slower than PMP.

How much faster were you doing the shorter runs - the ones that weren't meant to be recovery ones or specific PMP ones?

Mr Slow

shazkea wrote: »

Thanks, will def keep that in mind when doing LSR's and try & keep them to roughly 30 - 40 secs slower than PMP.

How much faster were you doing the shorter runs - the ones that weren't meant to be recovery ones or specific PMP ones?

I'd look at it the other way, whatever comfortable speed you run your LSR's, then expect to shave 30/40 off of that on race day. LSR's are supposed to be long and slow. I'll run my LSR's at 9:30 for the next one and should do a convincing sub 4, if I run my LSR's at 9 or less it'll be too much of a jump and I'll be worn out on race day.

My smaller runs got faster and faster towards the end, the last one was 2 miles in 14:30.

shazkea

Plan: 4 Miles

Since I did not do the last run at PMP, I thought I would do the 4 this eve at PMP instead. Hoping for a ~4:25 marathon which would put my PMP at 10 min/mile. I think this is realistic but it's so hard to judge on a first marathon.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I was disappointed with the result this eve. I did 4 miles comfortably and it was a lovely eve but just could not control my pace. I struggled really hard to keep it around 10 but every time I checked the watch it was not at 10!!

Distance: 4.02
Time: 38:54
Avg Pace: 09:41
Splits:
1)10:05 - lovely!
2)09:39
3)09:39
4)09:21

Emer911

shazkea wrote: »

Hoping for a ~4:25 marathon which would put my PMP at 10 min/mile. I think this is realistic but it's so hard to judge on a first marathon.

Just a word of caution...
I used my garmin for pacing in Berlin. I was aiming to go sub 4:30, and didn't have any specific target after that. I decided to keep my pace just below 10 min/mi.
My garmin pace on the day was 09:57 which 'should' have got me a 04:20:30 marathon time (according to the McMillan Calculator). But as the garmin is always a bit 'off' and the race line is generally very difficult to stick to, the watch usually ends up measuring a bit long... :rolleyes:
I ended up with 26.52 miles on the watch (instead of 26.2) and a 4:24:07 time.

Now I was really happy with that , but I just wanted you to understand that if you're using the garmin to keep your pace, and you want to make a specific time, run at a pace a bit faster than prescribed.
Alternatively, use the watch for Time and wear a pace band, and just use the pacing on the garmin for a rough idea.

All the best. Your training is going great and I've no doubt you'll be well under the 4:30!

shazkea

Emer911 wrote: »

Just a word of caution...
I used my garmin for pacing in Berlin. I was aiming to go sub 4:30, and didn't have any specific target after that. I decided to keep my pace just below 10 min/mi.
My garmin pace on the day was 09:57 which 'should' have got me a 04:20:30 marathon time (according to the McMillan Calculator). But as the garmin is always a bit 'off' and the race line is generally very difficult to stick to, the watch usually ends up measuring a bit long... :rolleyes:
I ended up with 26.52 miles on the watch (instead of 26.2) and a 4:24:07 time.

Now I was really happy with that , but I just wanted you to understand that if you're using the garmin to keep your pace, and you want to make a specific time, run at a pace a bit faster than prescribed.
Alternatively, use the watch for Time and wear a pace band, and just use the pacing on the garmin for a rough idea.

All the best. Your training is going great and I've no doubt you'll be well under the 4:30!

Really good point Emer, thanks a mil. I hadn't thought about that aspect of it and of course when you said it, I'm thinking Doh!! I also didn't think about the fact that the first mile or so is going to be alot slower as everyone is starting off. So you're absolutly right in saying I should factor these in.
TBH all I want to do is finish the race and I will be happy with any time (within reason!). I really just want a pace to aim for in the PMP training runs, 8 mile race on Sat and Half. I'll create a new wrist band so for about 4:20 to see what pace that gives me and then I will have a 10 min cushion for a sub 4:30 in theory . Cheers again!

menoscemo

mrslow wrote: »

I'm planning my next training around a 30 sec difference between LSR and PMP, I think it'll leave me with plenty of welly for the second half, I thought during training for DCM I'd magic 90 secs a mile in the race based on advice to run LSR's 60 - 90 secs slower but it didn't work that way for me at least.

I think you're spot on with your plan, the additional 20's will help too!

I ran a lot of the long runs with yourself at 9.30-10min/mile pace and I had no bother keeping 8 min/mile on marathon day, so i don't necessarily agree with your advice.
Shaz-I would say keep the LSR's slow and make sure that you have spent close to you goal time on your feet in training (i.e. 4ish hours in your case). The tendancy in any run is to go out fast and slowdown later, so it would be a good idea to try to run the first half of any LSR very slow (11min/mile+) and speed up in the second half, maybe running the last few miles at PMP. This teaches the body good habits and gives it endurance. There is no point in running the first half close to PMP (when it's easy) and struggling in the second half.

Best of Luck Shaz and see you in barcelona.

shazkea

OK thanks meno, I will try that on next LSR. One thing that would slightly concern me is I would get into habit of going slow in first half, then I put pressure on myself to try and make up time in second half - if that makes sense - as opposed to a steady pace throughout. Your suggestion does suit my rhythm of running more though so will give it a go on next LSR. I suppose thats what LSRs are there for so you can find what suits you!

menoscemo

shazkea wrote: »

OK thanks meno, I will try that on next LSR. One thing that would slightly concern me is I would get into habit of going slow in first half, then I put pressure on myself to try and make up time in second half - if that makes sense - as opposed to a steady pace throughout. Your suggestion does suit my rhythm of running more though so will give it a go on next LSR. I suppose thats what LSRs are there for so you can find what suits you!

Don't worry about time in the LSR though, the S stands for slow. When i did the long runs with the novices, we tended to head out at 9 mins/mile and be down to 10+min/mile by the end (we should have really been doing steady 10min/mile). That's a bad habit and doesn't stand to you in the marathon

I'll give you two LSR scenarios (both 20 miles):
A You go out at 9 min/miles and hold that pace for 15 miles, then get really tired and struggle home in an average of 11 min/mile over the last 5
B you go out at 10 minute miles for 15 miles and are still feeling fresh so you up the pace to 9 minute miles for the last 5

Now in scenario A you will still be 5 minutes faster overall than in scenario B, yet scenario B will be a much more effective stamina (and confidence) boosting run. Even if you don't feel fresh after 15miles in scenario B, but hold the 10 min/mile it is still a better run than A.

I have run two marathons, for the first I trained all my LSR's at PMP (9min/mile) but they were always a struggle at the end. On the day i blew up at mile 19 even though i had gone 20 miles in training at that pace.
For the second I ran LSR's slower than the first time (9.5min+/mile) but would generally up the pace for the last 2-3 miles of every run to PMP (8 mins/mile). I felt much more confident going into the second marathon knowing i could run at PMP after 3+hours on my feet. On the day i held the pace for all 26 miles and felt great at the end.

Hope this helps...

Emer911

in the same vane as Menoscemo, the great Mr Hal Higdon also recommends SLOW running for your long runs, and with a faster (near pmp) pace for the last quarter of your run distance (if you want).

here's an extract from advice on his training plans:

Run Slow: Normally I recommend that runners do their long runs anywhere from 45 to 90 seconds per mile slower than their marathon pace. This is very important. Listen to what the Coach is about to tell you! The physiological benefits kick in around 90-120 minutes, no matter how fast you run. You'll burn a few calories and trigger glycogen regenesis, teaching your muscles to conserve fuel. Running too fast defeats this purpose and may unnecessarily tear down your muscles, compromising not only your midweek workouts, but the following week's long run. Save your fast running for the marathon itself. There are plenty of days during the rest of the week, when you can run race pace. So simply do your long runs at a comfortable pace, one that allows you to converse with your training partners, at least during the beginning of the run. Which brings up my next point.

3/1 Training: Toward the end of the run, if you're still feeling fresh, you may want to pick up the pace and finish somewhat faster. This will convert your long run into what I call a 3/1 Run. That means you run the first three-fourths of your long run (say the first 12 miles of a 16-miler) at an easy pace, then do the final one-fourth (4 miles of a 16-miler) at a somewhat faster pace--though still not race pace. This 3/1 strategy is advised for only the most experienced runners, and I don't recommend you do it more than once out of every three weekends. In other words: first weekend, easy run; second weekend, 3/1 Run; third weekend, step back to a shorter distance. My philosophy is that it's better to run too slow during long runs, than too fast. The important point is that you cover the prescribed distance; how fast you cover it doesn't matter.

I've only done the one marathon, so I'm no expert, but I did all my Long runs around 60 seconds slower than my marathon pace, which I found comfortable on the day.

Hope this helps.

Mr Slow

menoscemo wrote: »

I ran a lot of the long runs with yourself at 9.30-10min/mile pace and I had no bother keeping 8 min/mile on marathon day, so i don't necessarily agree with your advice.

Just giving my experience N, my fitness wasn't up to 90 secs faster. My point really was that whatever pace you pick for the LSR's be prepared for the fact that you won't magically run 60/90 secs faster on the day.:D