cold barrel and warm barrel

Cass

Vegeta wrote: »

Anyone ever go to extremes and put a thermometer on the barrel

Not me personally. Wouldn't know where to start.

I do remember reading an article written by an engineer that was into target shooting and hunting. He wanted to know the same things. I don't know/remember how he achieved these results but he reckoned that in some caliber rifles the core temperature can hit 4,000 degrees and the pressure can hit 65,000 psi. He did state that these are fraction of a second measurements. As in they are peak measurments and not sustained ones.

Anyway, i have neither the ability or the capability to duplicate these and really, i don't want to. As long as the bullet comes out the barrel an hits what i want.

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

Eh?
Coulda fooled me!

Sparks wrote: »

And me. And quite a lot of other range users I think!

Well, no, he's absolutely right. If you're stalking you could be moving down a steep valley, with winds streaming in behind you or in front of you from an angle, down the side, hitting the bottom and creating strange eddy effects, then you might climb out of that valley and be on two miles of undulating open moor, with flat plateaus and dips, finishing up on a lowland section of open moor covered in small stands of trees. That topography will have a marked influence on the different wind patterns. The topography of a range isn't going to change in the course of a shooting session, so he's right in that in a long day's stalking, you're likely to encounter far more different wind conditions than on a range.

Sparks

But unless you're going to shoot in all those conditions at some sort of a target, you'll never learn the wind in those conditions; and you shouldn't be training like that on live animals. Which leaves you back at the range, trying to figure out what a slowly revolving (in the vertical plane) wind flag means to your PoI...

dCorbus

IWM, he's not absolutely right.

You're actually pointing out that conditions on a daylong stalk over varied terrain and wind conditions will produce a varied set of conditions - That's not what jw said - that's what you are now saying (but that's not what was previously posted - and in fact one is not related to the other). No-one is disputing what you've posted.

so he's right in that in a long day's stalking, you're likely to encounter far more different wind conditions than on a range

No, IWM, you're saying that - jw didn't. Read his post again.
What jw actually posted was:

"over the course of a session it will not change alot"

That's just not true - there are too many variables to make such a widesweeping and all incompassing statement. Over the course of a session it may change a lot, Over the course of a session it may not change a lot, what length is a "course of a session", what time of day is it, what distance are you shooting, where is the range located, what the topography like, etc etc etc

Yes, you may get more variables on a day-long stalk over hills and dales - but equally you may get more variable on a full day on the range. JW's sweeping statement is incorrect. That's the long and short of it.

Plus, as jw's already stated he only will shoot 3-shot groups (or none at all, depending on which post one reads), his concept of the length of a "course of a session" and yours and mine are two very different things, I'd suspect.

i dont bother shoothing groups its point less

Are you going to paraphrase that statement too, and agree with it?

But, to state that conditions on a range over the course of a session will "not change a lot" is not true, not matter which way you want to slice it.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

But unless you're going to shoot in all those conditions at some sort of a target, you'll never learn the wind in those conditions; and you shouldn't be training like that on live animals. Which leaves you back at the range, trying to figure out what a slowly revolving (in the vertical plane) wind flag means to your PoI...

No, that's why he's advocating practical target practice in the field, which will teach you how to shoot at an angle (show me a target shooting range that can replicate a thirty degree, 250 yard downhill shot with a wind blowing 20mph, gusting to 30mph, as you might find stalking red deer in the Highlands) and to learn what topography does to a visible wind condition and what conditions it will produce. These just aren't possible to replicate on a target shooting range. You also have to get used to observing different wind indicators across the entire distance of your shot, from grass or dandelion seeds under your nose to reed clumps a hundred yards out or the waving of twigs on a tree by the target. It's different, and the only thing shooting at a bench is any use for is sighting a rifle. It doesn't get you proper practice. If you're going to shoot live animals, that's certainly not how you should be training.

dCorbus wrote: »

IWM, he's not absolutely right.

"over the course of a session it will not change alot"

That's just no true - there are too many variables to make such a widesweeping and all incompassing statement. Over the course of a session it may change a lot, Over the course of a session it may not change a lot, what length is a "course of a session", what time of day is it, what distance are you shooting, where is the range located, what the topography like, etc etc etc

Yes, you may get more variables on a day-long stalk over hills and dales - but equally you may get more variable on a full day on the range. JW's sweeping statement is incorrect. That's the long and short of it.

Plus, as jw's already stated he only with shoot 3-shot groups or none at all, so his concept of the length of a "course of a session" and yours and mine are two very different things, I'd suspect.

But, to state that conditions on a range over the course of a session will "not change a lot" is not true, not matter which way you want to slice it.

You're just not going to get the variations produced by topography. It's not possible. If you were shooting targets up in DRC, on a range, and I'm stalking deer half a mile away, on the open hill, I'm going to encounter more challenges to my wind reading, because I've no flags, I've natural wind indicators to observe, and I have the variations of topography. It's just really simple. If you eliminate the variable values of something like distance or angle (as these are fixed on a target shooting range and over-complicate the comparison) and ask, for a given range, with a given round, which is going to be harder to shoot in due to the wind, then the answer is the field shot, because ranges have flags and the hill has a myriad topographical variations to affect the whole process. In a half mile of hill stalking, you'll find an awful lot more wind conditions than you will across 800 yards on the Windmill range.

dCorbus

Sorry, IWM, that's what you are saying.
And I'm not going to debate the points with you here - mainly coz I pretty much agree with you.

BUT.....you are saying this.

JW didn't post anything of the sort - You may be inferring what he meant. But from his posts, that's not what he stated. At all.

No one (so far) is disagreeing with you - but please stop defending jw's blanket sweeping statement, which is incorrect.
,
What you are posting and what jw posted are two very different statements.

BTW How many deer would you shoot at 300, 400, 500, 600, 800, 900, 1000, and 1200yds?
Not many, i'd guess / hope.
Reading the wind and knowing what the wind is doing at 100 - 200yds on a pretty large target area using a 308, 30-06, .243 etc is pretty much irrelevant. It's not going to put you off the target.
You don't need wind flags at 100 - 200 with a large deer caliber IMHO - Yes, you have the natural indicators, instead of wind flags, so what?

you'll find an awful lot more wind conditions than you will across 800 yards on the Windmill range.

Don't be too sure about that!
Also, who's talking about windmill here? I didn't mention it.
But now you mention it - So, you are telling me: That you will experience the same conditions on the covered 50m as at the 100yd range as at the 300yd as at 500yd range as at the 900yd range? The same wind will be blowing, the same light conditions will prevail as we move through the day's shooting? Oh, if only........

Plus, you're ignoring the fact that if you sit in a high chair on a hill, the topography ain't gonna change much either.

JW made a sweeping generalised and IMO factually incorrect statement.
I disagreed with his statement.
You are now adding to what you think jw meant, in a effort to back up his statement.
He didn't mention anything which you have put forward.
I don't disagree with anything you've posted.
I do disagree with jw's statement.

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

Sorry, IWM, that's what you are saying.
And I'm not going to debate the points with you here - mainly coz I pretty much agree with you.

BUT.....you are saying this.

JW didn't post anything of the sort - You may be inferring what he meant. But from his posts, that's not what he stated. At all.

No one (so far) is disagreeing with you - but stop defending a blanket sweeping statement which is incorrect.

What you are posting and what jw posted are two very different statements.

He's mentioned two different types of target shooting, one being on the range and one being in the field. He's stated he doesn't shoot targets other than to check the rifle. It's obvious he means this is on the range as he immediately goes on to say that he prefers long range vermin shooting and field targets to practise, because obviously the former type of shooting doesn't do anything for one's practical skillset. I'm not inferring anything that isn't there. You've agreed with me that the wind variations in a hunting situation are greater than on the range, but you disagreed when he said the same thing. That there are more variable winds in a given days stalking across mixed terrain than there are in a day on the range is a blanket statement, but it's one I agree with. Sure, you might find the one day in a blue moon that doesn't fit this pattern, but one swallow, no summer.

dCorbus

he's advocating practical target practice in the field

What now? Didn't read where he said that.
Practical Target Practice in the Field? Where do I sign up?:rolleyes:

Oh, sorry, I can't - Target practice outside an authorised range is verboten, is it not?

But if someone wants to run a practical field target training day, I'll be there.;):D

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

What now? Didn't read where he said that.
Practical Target Practice in the Field? Where do I sign up?:rolleyes:

Oh, sorry, I can't - Target practice outside an authorised range is verboten, is it not?

But if someone wants to run a practical field target training day, I'll be there.;):D

It's quoted below. Target shooting is indeed, but until they define what that actually means, it's going to continue to be necessary to verify what a bullet does in varying conditions of wind and angle for field shooting. Indeed, since those conditions can never be replicated on a range, a range can never be the place to do it.

jwshooter wrote: »

thats why i shoot long range vermin and field targets more so that paper on a range .

dCorbus

You've agreed with me that the wind variations in a hunting situation are greater than on the range, but you disagreed when he said the same thing.

FFS IWM, he did not say the same thing.

I have agreed with you that wind variations in a hunting situation may be greater than on the range. I did not agree that, to quote jw: "over a session, it will not change alot".

What you are saying and what he was saying are different. On your post, I agree with you (to an extent) and on jw's post, I disagree with jw. Simples.

It wasn't me!

Except that, relatively speaking, and in the context of field shooting, he's spot on.

Alright, as a thought experiment, what are the widest range of corrections you've used at, say, 200 yards on the range?

jwshooter

dCorbus wrote: »

FFS IWM, he did not say the same thing.

I have agreed with you that wind variations in a hunting situation may be greater than on the range. I did not agree that, to quote jw: "over a session, it will not change alot".

What you are saying and what he was saying are different. On your post, I agree with you (to an extent) and on jw's post, I disagree with jw. Simples.

To spend a day on a range shooting paper at known distances ,directly in front of you ,wind will never change from one side to another or cause up or down drafts like shooting over open hill or dale from shot to shot .when it does change it will slowly ,gusts more a problem are they not .

i have a several spots where i can shoot out to 1000yds , at angles from 9 to 3 o clock .even at 400yds bullet drift can be measured in feet on a windy day and the next shot from the same spot ,different angle the shot is held on .


we would use balloons a lot ,blown up to different sizes .tied randomly to heather grass out to silly ranges .

another reason i dont go to ranges to shoot , to many lads talking pure dung .

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

another reason i dont go to ranges to shoot , to many lads talking pure dung .

You do go to ranges to shoot jw, you're just doing it illegally on an ad hoc range out in the middle of nowhere. And I'll grant you, this is a case where the law is an ass because you do need to be able to learn to shoot up and downhill and so forth and most ranges are built to avoid that kind of topography; but nonetheless, you're on a range when shooting balloons, just an illegal ad hoc one.

As to talking pure dung, I'll happily put you and someone like Floydster side-by-side and bet a weeks pay that Floydster will outshoot you up and down the firing line. Shooting knowledge is not somehow confined solely to those who hunt.

dCorbus

jw, your own statements about wind conditions on ranges really just go to show who's the one "talking dung" right about now:

wind will never change from one side to another

Not on any range or at any distance I've ever shot at. Wind can and does change from one side to the other. Unfortunately.:D

cause up or down drafts like shooting over open hill or dale from shot to shot

Up or down drafts - Hmmmm.....which range are we talking about?
The only ones I can speak of are:
Midlands Range - Not much issue with up or down drafts (if it's whipping winds up from a valley or thermals rising).
Diggle Range - Hell yes, there be up and down drafts there.
An Riocht - Yep, there's an annoying up draft which can occur right in front of the raised 300yd firing point, there's also winds whipping back off the mountain behind the targets to deal with on occassion.

Can't comment on other ranges personally, but from the three I've shot at, the conditions and wind "personalities" are VERY different at each one.

when it does change it will slowly

Oh, if only.......
Sudden changes in the wind speed and direction are what really f**k things up / make things interesting. And yes, they happen. More often than not.

gusts more a problem are they not

They're a problem too TBH.

.even at 400yds bullet drift can be measured in feet on a windy day and the next shot from the same spot ,different angle the shot is held on

Yes. Of course. I've heard about bullet drift.;):D

another reason i dont go to ranges to shoot , to many lads talking pure dung

Thanks. Not sure who is the one "talking dung" here.
But whilst I'm the first to admit I know little or nothing about hunting, some people seem to be experts on the various conditions at shooting ranges, even though they admit to not using them.:p

dCorbus

Except that, relatively speaking, and in the context of field shooting, he's spot on.

In the context of field shooting - you're right and I agree. But in the context of range shooting, I think we should all stop digging right about now.;)

what are the widest range of corrections you've used at, say, 200 yards on the range

Can't remember the last time I shot at the 200yd mark. Probably the last time you were beside me with Mark - or were we on the 300yd that time?

TBH as you know, I don't shoot at the 200yd mark, except for getting/checking my zero.

Ask me another one!;):D:D:D:rolleyes:

Widest range of corrections (say from yesterday at 900yds), now that's a different story - Let's just say the "range of corrections" required was extensive to deal / address the uni-directional non-changeable slow-changing light winds and stable conditions which seem to exist on jw's imaginary idyllic range.;):D

(Actually, don't ask me another one - This is way off thread - and I'm off)

jwshooter

dCorbus wrote: »

In the context of field shooting - you're right and I agree. But in the context of range shooting, I think we should all stop digging right about now.;)



Can't remember the last time I shot at the 200yd mark. Probably the last time you were beside me with Mark - or were we on the 300yd that time?

TBH as you know, I don't shoot at the 200yd mark, except for getting/checking my zero.

Ask me another one!;):D:D:D:rolleyes:

Widest range of corrections (say from yesterday at 900yds), now that's a different story - Let's just say the "range of corrections" required was extensive to deal / address the uni-directional non-changeable slow-changing light winds and stable conditions which seem to exist on jw's imaginary idyllic range.;):D

(Actually, don't ask me another one - This is way off thread - and I'm off)

again the reason why i dont go to rifle ranges ..

badshot

isn't this the hunting forum?

Tackleberrywho

I have to say I prefer shooting in the field anyday. Especially if the target moves

In regars to warm barrels and shooting in the field, noty of huge concern at 100-300.

Wind is the problem, and angle compensation, shooting from hill to vcalley, hill to hill etc.

Biggest problem is finding a place to get a shot.
Wallysworld can confirm I crawled on my belt buckle through a place that cattle had dug up with their hooves to get a shot.

Then my biggest problem was stopping the bipod sinking in the muck.
Thankfully harris stalking bipod has fully adjustable legs and I was able to get a shot off.

The only probnlem with things warming up is the mod's if you shoot a few shots. After shooting 14 rabbits in 45 mins (my Personal best in one sitting) the Mod was quite hot and I had to dial down teh scope as the mirage/heat haze was brutal.

God I love Hunting

johngalway

badshot wrote: »

isn't this the hunting forum?

Good point, moved to Shooting.

Martinobrien

Very interesting reading lads,being only new to shooting the big bore rifle i find this very educational,but i need to ask a few questions,first i want to know is,how can you measure the wind when shooting on a windy day and does the bullet drift that much over a long distance,i never had a problem shooting my CZ.22,but than again i rearly shot over a hundred yards and i can remember being out on a bad windy day.

It wasn't me!

Martinobrien wrote: »

Very interesting reading lads,being only new to shooting the big bore rifle i find this very educational,but i need to ask a few questions,first i want to know is,how can you measure the wind when shooting on a windy day and does the bullet drift that much over a long distance,i never had a problem shooting my CZ.22,but than again i rearly shot over a hundred yards and i can remember being out on a bad windy day.

You can look at indicators in close, like grass, then out further you can see waving long grass, twigs and branches on trees. You'll learn to gauge the effects of visible indications on the shot fall. Bullet drift is noticeable, and if unaccounted for, you'll find it easy to wound out towards three hundred yards or so in normal conditions, and a lot closer in on blustery open hills. .22LR is an awful thing for drift. You'll learn to correct for that fairly sharpish. Great training aid.

Tackleberrywho

Martinobrien wrote: »

Very interesting reading lads,being only new to shooting the big bore rifle i find this very educational,but i need to ask a few questions,first i want to know is,how can you measure the wind when shooting on a windy day and does the bullet drift that much over a long distance,i never had a problem shooting my CZ.22,but than again i rearly shot over a hundred yards and i can remember being out on a bad windy day.

You can go technical and get a hand held weather measuring station
However this only tells the wind speed where you are.

imagine driving on a motorway, you are flying along when there is a break in teh tree line, you feel a distinct force pushing you left or right depending on direction of win.

Now imagine you are a bullet and teh effects are similar.

In the field it can be easy or difficult depending on terrain.
Some look at smoke from chimney stacks, leaves in trees, dust blowing there are various ways and the beaufort scale is an accurate pictorial way of figuring out wind speeds

to be really good at reading wind is an art, I have not nearly perfected it yet.
Some bullets are more susceptible to it than others.

I find on a very windy day the .223 can have issues with wind. i try to read it best i can, aim off for it and try to squeeze off a round in the 1/2 second the wind stops blowing.
Not easy but doable.

You can also cheat and shoot into or away from the wind as it has not such a dramatic affect on the round in the field.
I have a couple of favorite shooting spots that are sheltered from most of the strongest wind which also helps

IRLConor

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You can go technical and get a hand held weather measuring station
However this only tells the wind speed where you are.

It's also not much use unless you'll always have it with you. Much better to learn how to deal with wind in the way that is relevant to the type of shooting you're going to do. For me, that's mostly wind flags, my face and (depending on the range) the grass in front of me. Training with anything else would be a waste of time.

You can also cheat and shoot into or away from the wind as it has not such a dramatic affect on the round in the field.

Be careful with doing this on a covered range. If the wind is coming from behind you it can create odd eddies right in front of you. Worse, you can't see the gusts coming.

Tackleberrywho

IRLConor wrote: »

It's also not much use unless you'll always have it with you. Much better to learn how to deal with wind in the way that is relevant to the type of shooting you're going to do. For me, that's mostly wind flags, my face and (depending on the range) the grass in front of me. Training with anything else would be a waste of time.



Be careful with doing this on a covered range. If the wind is coming from behind you it can create odd eddies right in front of you. Worse, you can't see the gusts coming.

Very little of my shooting is on a range.
And there are always oddities in the field
I was just about to shoot a Pusheen rabbit once when a stoat swiped him first!

declan1980

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You can go technical and get a hand held weather measuring station
However this only tells the wind speed where you are.

i've got a caldwell wind wizard, i carry it with me all the time when i shoot, same as my laser range finder.
i find if i point it at the target it will show the wind speed for the direction i'm shooting, ie a 10 mph wind blowing from 10 o'clock to 4o'clock will be read as a 7.5mph wind, which is correct as far as i know. i mean that should be a 3/4 value wind.
i found this very useful when i had the hmr. using the 2 gadgets i rarely missed out to 200 yards. i havent tried with the .223 yet, but i'm hoping it'll be good to 300/350 yards

anyway, just so i'm not going completely off topic. i had a good old "zeroing" session after i got the mod on the rifle on sunday. i wasn't leaving 2-3 minutes between shots, more like 20-30 seconds, and i didn't see any difference in poi. the barrel and mod were warm, but not hot by any means.
could i have damaged the barrel shooting this fast?

jwshooter

declan1980 wrote: »

i've got a caldwell wind wizard, i carry it with me all the time when i shoot, same as my laser range finder.
i find if i point it at the target it will show the wind speed for the direction i'm shooting, ie a 10 mph wind blowing from 10 o'clock to 4o'clock will be read as a 7.5mph wind, which is correct as far as i know. i mean that should be a 3/4 value wind.
i found this very useful when i had the hmr. using the 2 gadgets i rarely missed out to 200 yards. i havent tried with the .223 yet, but i'm hoping it'll be good to 300/350 yards

anyway, just so i'm not going completely off topic. i had a good old "zeroing" session after i got the mod on the rifle on sunday. i wasn't leaving 2-3 minutes between shots, more like 20-30 seconds, and i didn't see any difference in poi. the barrel and mod were warm, but not hot by any means.
could i have damaged the barrel shooting this fast?

wind meters are ok if you like gadgets , it not accurately tell you whats happening down range .thats known as field craft or guesstimation :eek:.

20-30 ---how many shots are we talking about .

declan1980

jwshooter wrote: »

20-30 ---how many shots are we talking about .

a full 6 shot magazine per shot string.
then a couple of minutes rest.
did that for about 30 shots

jwshooter

declan1980 wrote: »

a full 6 shot magazine per shot string.
then a couple of minutes rest.
did that for about 30 shots

to much dec .
i would shoot 3 shot groups like that ,not 5 .if you let the barrel cool and take more time your shooting will improve .mods hold the heat its no harm to take them off also .

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

to much dec .
i would shoot 3 shot groups like that ,not 5 .if you let the barrel cool and take more time your shooting will improve .mods hold the heat its no harm to take them off also .

I'd agree with JW on this

I only shoot 3 shot groups and then I examine the target.

In the mean time the rifle cools to an acceptable level to start over

bunny shooter

I always only use 3 shots in a group also