"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

Delirium

J C wrote: »

Like I have said, his idea that we should rely on facts is a good one ... the only problem was that he didn't always follow through on it ... for example the fact of biogenesis ... that life only ever comes from other life ... and reproduces according to its kind ... shows Creation to be true ... and abiogenesis/evolution to be false.

Right so you don't share his opinions on evidence then, as you support Creationism as being true.

You also believe in god, which he said there was no evidence for. So while you might claim that his idea to rely on facts is a good one, your posts on this thread display a massive contradiction to that claim.

dead one wrote: »

What is behind that change, that's what i am asking--- Is that change happening by chance???-- It seems you are quite confused with your concept of evolution--- You can't answer simple answers--- For example let's talk about Climate change --- Climate changes because the changes in the global energy balance.---- or the proportion at which energy is acquired from the star (sun) and the proportion at which it is lost to space measures the equilibrium temperature and climate of Earth. There is mechanism behind everything--- Everything isn't working because of Chance --- No chance can create complex mechanism--- See, that's what science says and you believe in your own science---

The confusion is on your end, dead one.

You asked me to explain evolution, I provided a link as to how it works. You then ask for a single phrase to explain it, I did so. You now accuse me of being confused after answering your queries.

You're asking me for something which you can't seem to put into words. From what I can guess so far, it's along the lines of "if god didn't do it, who did?", which I don't see what that has to do with evolution.

No, you are in search of that evidence which support your point of view--- Theories can't be evidence-- Evidence is what you see from your eyes---

Says the person who uses a holy book to explain everything :rolleyes:

I didn't one day decide, "hey, I like the idea that we are descended from apes" and then when searching for research to back up that idea. I read some science books, and that is how I came to supporting evolution.

Creationists on the other hand, do exactly as you have accused me of doing. They read a holy book, and then invent some bad science to reaffirm their faith.

Mr. Boo

Is this just the most amazing troll ever?


Extinction is the final evolutionary process. An estimated 99.9% of species that have ever lived are extinct. If that is not evidence enough of the chance involved, then I don't know what is.

I don't know how to decipher half of the nonsense in this thread. But it must be hard to get around when you're spyglassing your navel.

robindch

dead one wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

dead one wrote: »

Can you sum up in single phrase

"Differential reproductive success".

Then in what way do you give a reason for Mouunt St. Halans??

Don't be mislead by the word "mount" in that context.

It's short for "mountain" and has got nothing to do with climbing on top of somebody else and having at them like jackrabbits.

Sarky

Dead one, pro tip: Don't try to use disciplines you don't fully understand in an argument with someone who uses those same disciplines every day to prove the opposite of your point.

I suppose that goes for J C too, but I doubt he's listened to any reasonable advice in years.

dead one wrote: »

Do you know about these errors --- I am talking about genetic diseases--- The genetic information present in the DNA is Approximately to a store of 4000 books--- Even if materialness and spirit somehow arose, the chance that modification and natural selection generated this huge amount of information is essentially zero. Here are some steps
1. Start with a meaningful phrase.
2. Rewrite it, but produce some errors and insert a few letters.
3. See if the new phrase is meaningful.
4. If it is, replace the original phrase with it.
5 Return to step “2.”
To create just the enzymes in one living thing would need more than 10 power 41,000 periods--- To understand how huge 10 power 41000 is --- the universe has only atom with 10 power 80--- Now, please for materialism's sake don't say that chance is behind all this mechanism..... Some evolutionists, in past, out of ignorance, started calling to huge parts of DNA as “junk” DNA, because that DNA seemingly had no meaning and was abandoned from our evolutionary past --What evolutionists Said “junk” DNA is now recognized to create miRNAs which is essential for each organism’s health and also controls to a huge extent the production of proteins. Cancers (lung, breast, stomach, prostate, colon, pancreatic, and brain) are frequently a result of damaged miRNAs

---

ftw

Well your zero-chance scenario is flawed to begin with. If you take any continuous probability curve the probability of any single point on it is essentially zero. But the probability of any single point lying between two values can be measured quite easily, once you know the mathematics behind the shape of the curve, or even enough to roughly model it. This is all extremely basic statistics and probability, and it's constantly abused by people like you and J C in an attempt to rubbish all the things real scientists use it to establish. Bad statistics may not be labelled a sin in your holy books, but it bloody well should be.

And while your scenario might be plausible if there were no other factors involved, just random assembly after random assembly like your book example, it's well-known that DNA doesn't just randomly combine. The physical and chemical properties of nucleotides and amino acids alone mean some nucleotides or amino acids almost never bond while others almost always do. This results in some patterns being much more common than others, and that's why things like BLOSUM and BLAST work so well. Then you have an environment filled with water, one of the most powerful solvents in the universe, with all manner of chemicals dissolved in it, where they can interact freely. There's light and heat and dark and cold to start and stop chemical reactions, just because the planet spins. There are tides and currents in the oceans.

Put all those together, and the emergence of life isn't just possible, it's almost inevitable. There are tonnes of videos on this thread that can explain it in greater detail.

Your example would be more accurate if each word had a different chance of gaining errors and the words themselves could be reshuffled and spelled backwards, and some words were more likely to stay close to certain neighbours.

Life is complicated. "God did it" does a massive disservice to just how amazing it is that we're actually here to have this conversation.

If you are talking about horizontal gene transfer--- then --- Horizontal transfer, however , does not narration for the cause of opposition genes, only their spread among bacteria---- Mutations, in addition , can practically account for the beginning of antibiotic resistance in the bacterrrial world, but include mutational procedures that are opposite to the predictions of evolution.

Your grammar suddenly jumps in quality. Suspicious?

It's not just horizontal transfer. Vetical too. Human chromosomes quite clearly contain stretches of DNA that come from bacteria and viruses, and vice versa. That's how many viruses jump species- they gain a couple of genes responsible for splicing DNA from a species, and they use that to hijack a cell's reproductive machinery. Again, there is a huge amount of literature free on the net to provide greater detail.

It's quite easy to tell they're foreign; If it wasn't enough that those stretches of DNA contain radically different amounts of guanine/cytosine, the actual sequences also closely match various micro-organisms. Do a quick search for "eyeless gene", you'll see that any how many wildly different eukaryotes from sea-squirts to insects to humans all share the same ancestor gene for triggering development of eyes. Any differences correlate very well with the amount of time we think they've been seperate species and the number of random point mutations you'd expect in a stretch that size over that time, and in that environment.

And you're forgetting one of the big aspects of natural selection: Mutations are often fatal. They remove themselves from the equation.

You are mixing biological science with evolution --- Science is different thing and evolution which you are basing on materialism, is different thing-- Right i ain't against development of life if you called it evolution/fresh hell-- I am against the idea that chance is behind all this mechanism--- Why you don't admit all this is work of intelligence not non-intelligence--- Why you prefer non intelligence because you wish to be non intelligent---

They are different branches of the same tree. They compliment each other very well. Many of the great medical advances in the last 30 years were made possible because of what we know about evolution. Epidemiology and disease control would be near-impossible without our understanding of how a virus evolves over even short spaces of time. If evolution didn't happen we wouldn't have antibiotic-resistant bacteria causing massive problems in hospitals.

And you're still assuming that it's completely random. It really isn't. There are so many factors influencing the probabilities that it's more like playing poker with a marked deck and half the cards are wild. There's still an element of chance, but the odds are heavily biased.


Simply put, I'll start believing it was all made by a higher intelligence when there's evidence for it. There is nothing about the existence and diversity of life on this planet that cannot be explained completely by abiogenesis and evolution.

What fresh hell is this, professor sarky - The hell is prepared for disbeliever who disbelieve in their heart that God isn't behind this all wonderful structure--- may be you will see soon --- There is after life---- as you didn't come in this life because of your will---You will rise again--- You are rejecting God because of your freewill and authority---- As rejecting God, doesn't effect your life, how accepting will effect---

You are threatening someone over the internet. That's just sad. Think about that last paragraph you typed for a moment. Aren't you muslims all about the peace and respect, or is all this reason and logic and science getting under your skin?

I am not rejecting any god. I simply don't think there was ever a god to reject in the first place.

See, You said-- my little God which shows how huge your arrogance is in accepting the God--- Better admit, you creation is clue for God not clue for chances---- Wasting your life to search a thing which doesn't exist--- That''s how you are wasting your life and time--- Suppose there is lie and i try my best to search that lie, will i be able to find truth--- Evolution is greatest creation of God which you basing on lie--- I wonder how many lives had been wasted in search of that lie--- Wasted time--- Wasted life

"People of the world don't look at themselves, and so they blame one another."
Look into your heart your will find God

You accuse me of wasting my life? I'm helping people understand and combat life-threatening diseases here! You accuse me of arrogance? I've looked at colliding galaxies millions of light years away, forming new stars from forces so huge they dwarf ANY show of force by ANY god in ANY holy text. With the help of the right tools, I've all but seen the edge of the universe. Religious people can talk about infinity all they like, but I know exactly how small and insignificant we are on this tiny planet orbiting a boring star in an unremarkable galaxy among countless others.

True arrogance is thinking that this tiny speck of nothing was singled out for a grand plan made by someone you've never met, who's never spoken to you, and who's mysterious ways are utterly identical to random chance and human nature, but somehow he still loves everyone.

I've looked in my heart, and it's full wonder at the vastness and beauty of the universe, and it humbles me. All you have is a murderous, petulant master who'll torture you forever if you so much as look at him funny or dare to ask questions. I feel sorry for you, dead one. I really do.

J C

dead one wrote: »

JC, you would have a wonderfull career, if you were evolutionist--- What makes you to come to the truth --- What is that thing which encourages you to stop propagating lies/materialistic evolution--- JC why you have destroyed your future for truth--- --- JC, tell these lads-- i see the light

Here's the thing ... I didn't think that I was lying when I was an evolutionist ... I genuinely believed that it was all true.

However, one day somebody challenged me on my belief in the power of material to spontaneously generate the CFSI in living creatures ... and I simply had no answer ... and every other evolutionist that I consulted at the time, also had no answer.
... and so it continues to this very day.

... and BTW I have had ... and continue to have ... a wonderful life.

I am truly blessed by having a great family, wonderful work colleagues and great neighbours.

fatmammycat

J C wrote: »

Here's the thing ... I didn't think that I was lying when I was an evolutionist ... I genuinely believed that it was all true.

However, one day somebody challenged me on my belief in the power of material to spontaneously generate the CFSI in living creatures ... and I simply had no answer ... and every other evolutionist that I consulted at the time, also had no answer.
... and so it continues to this very day.

... and BTW I have had ... and continue to have ... a wonderful life.

I am truly blessed by having a great family, wonderful work colleagues and great neighbours.

Here's the thing, one day I thought I should believe in fairy tales. No one could prove unicorns don't exist, and there are stories of unicorns, so, well, I might as well believe in them. People SAY...they don't exist:rolleyes: but I have squirted my spunk thither and yon so somehow this proves unicorns exist - at least to my mind. And my neighbour is not a cnut, so also Polly Pocket ponies, and maybe Smurfs, exist.:D:D
LOLZIESS. JC

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

I suppose that goes for J C too, but I doubt he's listened to any reasonable advice in years.

That would imply that there was some time in the past when she did. I'm inclined to think she didn't.

dead one

himnextdoor wrote: »

It?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73631618&postcount=4860

himnextdoor wrote: »

Let's look at life then: One rule fits all: survival of the fittest. There is nothing complex about that.

The fittest individuals, do not last . Even the best is mortal. The able-bodied die just equally inevitably as the less fit.

himnextdoor wrote: »

I have learned that if push came to shove, it may be possible that you know which way the wind is blowing.

Poor understanding, Can a chance assemble or create weather vane.... As there is intelligence behind the creation of weather vane, so there is intelligence behind creation of evolution/Everything.....
You in other post called me stupid.... Have a look into your own collar.... Here are clues...
First you said
1. There is no similarity between Titan and Earth
When i had shown you similarity.... Then you "Sigh"

himnextdoor wrote: »

*sigh* because the energy from the sun plays a role.

Can Raw Energy Create Order?

himnextdoor wrote: »

Honestly. my 'NO' is evidence based.

Materialistic evolution is theory in the ocean of endless theories... It isn't evidence... Evolution is result intelligence that's what science suggest... Non intelligence can't create order.... It is the science and the logic...but you have made your own logic and science to believe what you prefer believe....

himnextdoor wrote: »

You say nothing...it just is! You support none of your arguments with substance...it just is is all you are saying.
And again, not very scientific.

you can use science as a torch to find God.... That's what revelation says--- You also believe in God--- you believe in the god, in form of material--- You have your own science to believe in your god/chance/accidents--- We have our own..

himnextdoor wrote: »

Hypocrite!

You in your heart know that it is impossible for non-intelligence to create intelligence yet you favor non-intelligence because of your ego/pride/vanity/arrogance/fresh hell--- That is true hypocrisy...

himnextdoor wrote: »

You are a Muslim; do men have to cover themselves in your cultures?

You don't know about muslims or Islam.... You know what you have learned from your hypocrite media--- because your media loves to quote Islam--- This is how you and your young generation are being brainwashed

himnextdoor wrote: »

You want to discuss women? Would that be women you would like to possess?
Or the ones that aren't entitled to an education?

Education of women doesn't mean advertisement of women.... I prefer simple uneducated non-advertising woman than of a educated woman who displays her beauty to attract men.... may be you won't be able to find wisdom in my words because of the society in which your living.... like this way

himnextdoor wrote: »

And I want you to explain to me in one simple phrase; how do I become creator of the universe?

I believe in God because of revelation... If there were no revealation, i would have no belief in God.... You believe in Chances/accidents.... What is revelation for that.... i guess, it is because you have chosen to obey chances rather God and you are little god in your little knowledge
Watch the arrogance in your words.....

himnextdoor wrote: »

You are mind-bogglingly stupid and aptly demonstrate why all right-minded people should do everything they can to make religion into 'folklore'.
And did I mention that you are a 100%, solid gold, total hypocrite.

"arrogance diminishes wisdom" I feel no pain....whatever you may call me... because i don't believe materialism as God... The pain which i see, in your above words is result of your attachment to materialism.... The more you attach yourself to material, the more your suffer--- the suffering and pain is on your way....

housetypeb

dead one wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73631618&postcount=4860[/

.... I prefer simple uneducated non-advertising woman than of a educated woman who displays her beauty to attract men.... ...

Why am I am not surprised by this? Dead One, are you afraid of smart women because of your religion or are you using your religion to hide from smart women?

dead one

koth wrote: »

which I don't see what that has to do with evolution.

why you don't say, that chance is behind evolution? is there problem any problem if you use chance instead of God.....

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

This reads like a crossword clue.

In order to find clues you need intelligence.... Fill in the blank using intelligence... after that, don't say that all this is happening because of non-intelligence / chance

robindch wrote: »

Don't be mislead by the word "mount" in that context.

What is misleading, if it is misleading then why i had given you the link.. Robidch, it is true, often, when, a post which you aren't able to answer.... You use out of context method to answer it.... Like, it is plagiarism... or don't use misleading word..... or the hell isn't fresh

Materialistic Evolution is a modern-day myth. No finer than Zeus up in the sky, throwing down lightning bolts. But today we should know better. No less than Lucretius or Epicureans can arrogate scientific ignorance. Today’s interpretation of the myth, evolutionary theory, is a sacredly-driven parody of science. The religion of materialism is expressed in the evolutionary literature, as is the mockery of science.

J C wrote: »

Here's the thing ... I didn't think that I was lying when I was an evolutionist ... I genuinely believed that it was all true.

However, one day somebody challenged me on my belief in the power of material to spontaneously generate the CFSI in living creatures ... and I simply had no answer ... and every other evolutionist that I consulted at the time, also had no answer.
... and so it continues to this very day.

... and BTW I have had ... and continue to have ... a wonderful life.

I am truly blessed by having a great family, wonderful work colleagues and great neighbours.

Very true, JC.... JC, i salute your courage how humble you are in caring these arrogant lads..... But, Alas these lads can't learn from you..... JC what is that thing which encourages you to care for these lads-- who are arrogant-- who don't believe in God ---- who believe chance is God....

Sarky

Such wilful ignorance and blatant lies. This is why we can't have nice things.

himnextdoor

dead one wrote: »

Poor understanding, Can a chance assemble or create weather vane.... As there is intelligence behind the creation of weather vane, so there is intelligence behind creation of evolution/Everything.....
You in other post called me stupid.... Have a look into your own collar.... Here are clues...
First you said
1. There is no similarity between Titan and Earth
When i had shown you similarity.... Then you "Sigh"

Let me simplify. If you mix together the ingredients for bread and put the dough into a cold oven, you end up with dough. Put the same dough onto a hot oven and you get bread. Do you see?

dead one wrote: »

Can Raw Energy Create Order?

Yes, because 'raw energy' has order; it 'imparts' it.

dead one wrote: »

Materialistic evolution is theory in the ocean of endless theories... It isn't evidence... Evolution is result intelligence that's what science suggest... Non intelligence can't create order.... It is the science and the logic...but you have made your own logic and science to believe what you prefer believe....

No, dead one. 'evolution' is the conclusion reached by the study of evidence.

dead one wrote: »

you can use science as a torch to find God.... That's what revelation says--- You also believe in God--- you believe in the god, in form of material--- You have your own science to believe in your god/chance/accidents--- We have our own..

Again no! No matter how powerful the torch, you cannot find something that isn't there.

dead one wrote: »

You in your heart know that it is impossible for non-intelligence to create intelligence yet you favor non-intelligence because of your ego/pride/vanity/arrogance/fresh hell--- That is true hypocrisy...

*sigh* Intelligence is an outcome of evolution. An accident.

dead one wrote: »

You don't know about muslims or Islam.... You know what you have learned from your hypocrite media--- because your media loves to quote Islam--- This is how you and your young generation are being brainwashed

Once again, no! I have lived among Muslims and women are treated as property in Islam.

dead one wrote: »

Education of women doesn't mean advertisement of women.... I prefer simple uneducated non-advertising woman than of a educated woman who displays her beauty to attract men.... may be you won't be able to find wisdom in my words because of the society in which your living.... like this way

I don't believe you.

Are you saying that God intended for women not to attract men? Did God intend for women to be forced to marry men they do not know or want?

Also, I know many Muslims who chase blondes. That is hypocrisy.

dead one wrote: »

I believe in God because of revelation... If there were no revealation, i would have no belief in God.... You believe in Chances/accidents.... What is revelation for that.... i guess, it is because you have chosen to obey chances rather God and you are little god in your little knowledge
Watch the arrogance in your words.....

Dude, fairy-stories written by an acknowledged paedophile do not constitute 'revelation'. It simply sets a precedent for acceptable filth.

dead one wrote: »

"arrogance diminishes wisdom" I feel no pain....whatever you may call me... because i don't believe materialism as God... The pain which i see, in your above words is result of your attachment to materialism.... The more you attach yourself to material, the more your suffer--- the suffering and pain is on your way....

Your mind is closed and locked by Quran and the key is lost. You are in a mental prison.

The sad part is that you are happy to be a prisoner.

Your book versus my books, lots of them, is not the issue.

God must have an inferiority complex in order to require His creation is in awe of Him. Why? Why does God need to be validated by man? Why does God care whether or not He exists?

Why does God need validation from his creation? Are you seriously suggesting that God created man for the sole purpose of receiving gratitude? That God has such low self-esteem that He needs constant stroking of His ego by mankind? And we are talking about the same God that 'gave' us 'free-will'.

Picture it; God thinks, 'I will create mankind in order that they will love me but I will make some of them doubt my existence and they will produce strong evidence to support their position'. God must be kicking Himself over free-will. Doh!

Ludicrous.

And unscientific.

himnextdoor

J C wrote: »

Here's the thing ... I didn't think that I was lying when I was an evolutionist ... I genuinely believed that it was all true.

However, one day somebody challenged me on my belief in the power of material to spontaneously generate the CFSI in living creatures ... and I simply had no answer ... and every other evolutionist that I consulted at the time, also had no answer.
... and so it continues to this very day.

... and BTW I have had ... and continue to have ... a wonderful life.

I am truly blessed by having a great family, wonderful work colleagues and great neighbours.

Really?

Then how can an angel have offspring?

God punished the serpent by putting enmity between it and the woman - yes? How then can the serpent be Satan?

You may have abandoned science through an inability to answer scientific questions so you should be equally prepared to abandon creationism on the same grounds.

You may be blessed, J C, but your family is hobbled by your idiocy.

Conning people isn't nice and conning your nearest and dearest is worse.

papu

dead one wrote: »

[URL][/URL]

Can Raw Energy Create Order?

This is the Milley Urey Experiment It shows how the inorganic materials and Ultraviolet Light, Raw energy in the for of Photons can create amino acids , fundamental blocks and the starting material for lifeforms.

While there is still debate on the generality of the experimental synthetic pathways and on the stability of the molecules produced, most if not all of the essential building blocks of proteins, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids can be readily produced under quite general primitive reducing conditions.

dead one

Sarky wrote: »

Dead one, pro tip: Don't try to use disciplines you don't fully understand in an argument with someone who uses those same disciplines every day to prove the opposite of your point.

I suppose that goes for J C too, but I doubt he's listened to any reasonable advice in years.

Thanks for tip, i wait for next tip in next post.... So that i can see, what you can't see...

Sarky wrote: »

Well your zero-chance scenario is flawed to begin with. If you take any continuous probability curve the probability of any single point on it is essentially zero. But the probability of any single point lying between two values can be measured quite easily, once you know the mathematics behind the shape of the curve, or even enough to roughly model it. This is all extremely basic statistics and probability, and it's constantly abused by people like you and J C in an attempt to rubbish all the things real scientists use it to establish. Bad statistics may not be labelled a sin in your holy books, but it bloody well should be.

When acknowledging how life started, there are only two Points. Either life was Produce by an intelligent source (God) or it started by Chance/Natural process... The general idea described in many books and in the media is that life emerged from non life in a aggroup of chemicals...... The idea by evolutionists is that this creation of life was the consequence of Accident time, ,and natural processes. One openly applied model of how spirit could have created by natural processes is the Miller-Urey experiment, produced in the early 1950s. Miller’s purpose was not to produce life but to pretend how spirit ’s basic building architecture(amino acids) might have created in the early earth. In the experiment, Miller tried to resemble the early atmosphere of earth by adopting certain gases, which he believed might produce organic compounds necessary for life. Since the gases he used (water, swamp gas, ammonia, and hydrogen) do not react with each other under natural circumstances... he created electrical fluxes to simulate some model of energy injunction(such as lightning) that was required to pickup the chemical reaction.... The result was production of amino acids. Many books encourage this experiment as the key step in giving how life could have originated.

When we see the aim , presuppositions, and results of the Miller experiment,the following critical questions that can be raised:

a. How much of the analysis was back out to chance or how much included intelligent design?
b. How did He know what Planets’s early atmosphere (billions of years ago) was like?
c. Did He create the accurate type of amino acids processed in life?
Now let's say for the sake of argument, all this is work of chance, then Another important component of life is information. The general factor in all living organisms is the information contained in their cells. Where and how did all this coded information arise? if we talk about probability/chances and accident.... What you and your holly books of materialistic evolutions says about this.. by no way i am against evolutions or development

Sarky wrote: »

And while your scenario might be plausible if there were no other factors involved, just random assembly after random assembly like your book example, it's well-known that DNA doesn't just randomly combine. The physical and chemical properties of nucleotides and amino acids alone mean some nucleotides or amino acids almost never bond while others almost always do. This results in some patterns being much more common than others, and that's why things like BLOSUM and BLAST work so well. Then you have an environment filled with water, one of the most powerful solvents in the universe, with all manner of chemicals dissolved in it, where they can interact freely. There's light and heat and dark and cold to start and stop chemical reactions, just because the planet spins. There are tides and currents in the oceans.

Again you are suggesting a non-intelligence source for all this...
The DNA system within all herb and animal cells is vastly more compact than any computer chip ever prepared. DNA is so complicated that a one-squareinch chip of DNA could encode the information in over million Books of darwin . Since the mass and complicatdness of the genetic code is billion of times bigger than present technology, we can say that the creator of the information must be highly intelligent.

In the case of proteien creation...When we See at the statical probabilities of even a little proteen arranging by random probability, it is beyond everything that has ever been noticed.

What is the chance of ever acquiring one little protein of hundred left-handed amino acids? To arrange just hundred left-handed amino acids ( would be the same chance as getting hundred heads in a line when flipping a coin. In order to get hundred heads in a row, we would have to toss/ flipp a coin ten x ten , thirty times). This is such an amazing doubtfulness that there would not be sufficient time in the whole history of the universe

The ability of complex architecture to create by natural processes is necessary for the evolution model to work. However, the complicatdness of life seems to preclude this from occurring . According to the laws of probability, if the probability of an event happening is smaller than 1 in 1/10^50, then the event will never happen

What have experimenters measured the chance to be of an average-size protein happening naturally?

4.9 x 1/10^191

This is well beyond the laws of chance (1x1/10^50), and a protein is not even near to create a perfect living cell

No matter how huge the surrounding one considers, life cannot have had a random non -intelligence source.

Sarky wrote: »

Your grammar suddenly jumps in quality. Suspicious?

your ignorance suddenly jumps in quality.... Not suspicious? See the below quote

Sarky wrote: »

It's not just horizontal transfer. Vetical too. Human chromosomes quite clearly contain stretches of DNA that come from bacteria and viruses, and vice versa. That's how many viruses jump species- they gain a couple of genes responsible for splicing DNA from a species, and they use that to hijack a cell's reproductive machinery. Again, there is a huge amount of literature free on the net to provide greater detail.

Horizontal gene transfer (HGT) is cell-to-cell transfer of genetic material, usually plasmids or transposons. Plasmids are autonomous extrachromosomal parts of DNA. They may consist a variety of genes, including genes for mobilization and antibiotic resistance.

Horizontal gene transfer of plasmids merely transfers genetic material from one cell to another.unveiling of specific genes, like antibiotic resistance genes, via a plasmid can be good for bacterial survival..... on the other hand, Horizontal gene transfer of plasmids does not directly account for the origin of the gene being carried over, merely their migration within the microbial world.
The traveling of pre-existing genes and other genetic activity does not subject for the origin of the transferred activity.... I hope you get the point

Sarky wrote: »

You are threatening someone over the internet. That's just sad. Think about that last paragraph you typed for a moment. Aren't you muslims all about the peace and respect, or is all this reason and logic and science getting under your skin?

Does my threats have any value... You are already threatening your existence.... You believe in no hell.... then why you feel these threats..... Why you are doubtful about your religious belief... why? professor why?

Sarky wrote: »

I am not rejecting any god. I simply don't think there was ever a god to reject in the first place.

You believe chance as God... You believe this world as God.... What is God... God creates things.... You think your creation is result of chance... Isn't chance your god...

Sarky wrote: »

You accuse me of wasting my life? I'm helping people understand and combat life-threatening diseases here! You accuse me of arrogance? I've looked at colliding galaxies millions of light years away, forming new stars from forces so huge they dwarf ANY show of force by ANY god in ANY holy text. With the help of the right tools, I've all but seen the edge of the universe. Religious people can talk about infinity all they like, but I know exactly how small and insignificant we are on this tiny planet orbiting a boring star in an unremarkable galaxy among countless others.

Again you are mixing science with materialistic evolution.... You are helping people to understand and combat life-threatening diseases here.... That is science not materialistic evolution...... When you tried to explain science in terms of your religious belief then you are wasting your time as well the time of others.... When you say there is no intelligence source behind evolution, you inject the vein of science with a venom that has no cure......You don't believe in God that's your belief and you apply that belief on science to make science a religion with full of cheap myths...

Sarky wrote: »

I've looked in my heart, and it's full wonder at the vastness and beauty of the universe, and it humbles me.

"Your task is not to seek for God, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against him. "

Sarky wrote: »

All you have is a murderous, petulant master who'll torture you forever if you so much as look at him funny or dare to ask questions. I feel sorry for you, dead one. I really do.

The intellectual is always showing off,

the lover is always getting lost.

The intellectual runs away.

afraid of drowning;

the whole business of love

is to drown in the sea.

Intellectuals plan their repose;

lovers are ashamed to rest.

The lover is always alone.

even surrounded by people;

like water and oil, he remains apart.

The man who goes to the trouble

of giving advice to a lover

get nothing. He's mocked by passion.

Love is like musk. It attracts attention.

Love is a tree, and the lovers are its shade.

dead one

papu wrote: »

This is the Milley Urey Experiment It shows how the inorganic materials and Ultraviolet Light, Raw energy in the for of Photons can create amino acids , fundamental blocks and the starting material for lifeforms.

Papu, See the above response....

robindch

dead one wrote: »

What is misleading, if it is misleading then why i had given you the link.. Robidch, it is true, often, when, a post which you aren't able to answer.... You use out of context method to answer it.... Like, it is plagiarism... or don't use misleading word..... or the hell isn't fresh

What I posted above is technically known as a "joke" or a "witticism" -- a construction with a humorous intent, in this case playing on the fact that the word "mount" can be used as a noun to mean a mountain, and as a verb to mean "have sex with".

Since mountains don't have sex with themselves, or other mountains, or indeed anything else for purposes of procreation, therefore they're not subject to evolution or evolutionary pressures.

dead one wrote: »

Materialistic Evolution is a modern-day myth. No finer than Zeus up in the sky, throwing down lightning bolts. But today we should know better. No less than Lucretius or Epicureans can arrogate scientific ignorance. Today’s interpretation of the myth, evolutionary theory, is a sacredly-driven parody of science. The religion of materialism is expressed in the evolutionary literature, as is the mockery of science.

What country do you live in and where did you learn your English?

fatmammycat

It's not really suspicious Sarky, as usual Dead One is quote stealing from creationist sources and trying to pass if off as if they had ANY clue of what they're talking about. You're wasting time trying to talk with this person.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria

Sarky

I don't think sharing knowledge is ever a waste of time, even if the people you're trying to share it with are so very determined to remain ignorant of all the little bits of information poking holes in their position. If nothing else, it shows how consumed they are by pride that they can't actually acknowledge all the holes in their arguments. Or that most of those arguments have been debunked years ago. I also enjoy the hypocrisy they demonstrate by being perfectly willing to make use of the advantages and luxuries provided by the research of people they oppose.

You never know, maybe something will get through. And explaining something is a great way to understand it yourself, in any case.

Besides, they're like a comedy duo at this stage. You start thinking "right, they can't possibly embarrass themselves any more" and BAM! They do just that.

On an aside: anyone else find it amusing that dead one tries to use the publications of the infidels to make his point?

fatmammycat

Sarky wrote: »

I don't think sharing knowledge is ever a waste of time, even if the people you're trying to share it with are so very determined to remain ignorant of all the little bits of information poking holes in their position. If nothing else, it shows how consumed they are by pride that they can't actually acknowledge all the holes in their arguments. Or that most of those arguments have been debunked years ago. I also enjoy the hypocrisy they demonstrate by being perfectly willing to make use of the advantages and luxuries provided by the research of people they oppose.

You never know, maybe something will get through. And explaining something is a great way to understand it yourself, in any case.

Besides, they're like a comedy duo at this stage. You start thinking "right, they can't possibly embarrass themselves any more" and BAM! They do just that.

On an aside: anyone else find it amusing that dead one tries to use the publications of the infidels to make his point?

Heh, good attitude.

Delirium

dead one wrote: »

why you don't say, that chance is behind evolution? is there problem any problem if you use chance instead of God.....

what exactly is the answer you want me to give? you clearly attempting to lead me to a response you have already presumed i will give.

you seem to want me to say it's chance not god that is behind evolution. both of those possibles options are ones presented by yourself and JC.

it just displays a lack of understanding of evolution on your behalf.

Sarky

dead one wrote: »

Thanks for tip, i wait for next tip in next post.... So that i can see, what you can't see...

Here I am trying to help you out, and you respond with glib dismissal. If I didn't know better I'd think you wanted people to repeatedly show you that you don't know what you're talking about. That kind of desire for humiliation is pretty kinky, even by decadent western standards.

The idea by evolutionists is that this creation of life was the consequence of Accident time, ,and natural processes.

Close enough, I suppose. You're still ignoring the thousands of other factors that would bias the "chance" element.

One openly applied model of how spirit could have created by natural processes is the Miller-Urey experiment, produced in the early 1950s ..... When we see the aim , presuppositions, and results of the Miller experiment,the following critical questions that can be raised:

Leaving aside your insistence that life requires "spirit", because frankly I don't know where to even begin with that one:

a. How much of the analysis was back out to chance or how much included intelligent design?

It was a bunch of chemicals in a box with occasional lightning strikes. There was nothing intelligent about the conditions. If you bother to read the results of the experiment, you'll see that.

b. How did He know what Planets’s early atmosphere (billions of years ago) was like?

Fossil records, geological records, analysis of deep ice from the polar regions... There are plenty of sources to work it out.

c. Did He create the accurate type of amino acids processed in life?

He probably didn't manage to create the 20 or so observed in organic life, but he didn't exactly have a few hundred million years, so I'd say getting even a few amino acids in the short time the experiment ran is pretty good going for the random chance you think is impossible.

Now let's say for the sake of argument, all this is work of chance, then Another important component of life is information. The general factor in all living organisms is the information contained in their cells. Where and how did all this coded information arise? if we talk about probability/chances and accident.... What you and your holly books of materialistic evolutions says about this.. by no way i am against evolutions or development

Another rookie mistake, and one that has been covered in loads of videos in this thread. Fully fledged genes and chromosomes did not suddenly appear. Suggesting otherwise is stupid. I'm not going to bother explaining why because there must be a hundred videos in this thread that do it already.

Again you are suggesting a non-intelligence source for all this...
The DNA system within all herb and animal cells is vastly more compact than any computer chip ever prepared. DNA is so complicated that a one-squareinch chip of DNA could encode the information in over million Books of darwin . Since the mass and complicatdness of the genetic code is billion of times bigger than present technology, we can say that the creator of the information must be highly intelligent.

From halfway down the first page of this paper's introduction:

"the modeling and simulation of genetic circuits has progressed
rapidly, leading to the design of synthetic genetic circuits"

Well crap, I guess God wasn't so hard to figure out after all.

You also completely ignored the link I put up about Adrian Thompson, didn't you?

In the case of proteien creation...When we See at the statical probabilities of even a little proteen arranging by random probability, it is beyond everything that has ever been noticed.
What is the chance of ever acquiring one little protein of hundred left-handed amino acids? To arrange just hundred left-handed amino acids ( would be the same chance as getting hundred heads in a line when flipping a coin. In order to get hundred heads in a row, we would have to toss/ flipp a coin ten x ten , thirty times). This is such an amazing doubtfulness that there would not be sufficient time in the whole history of the universe

Already dealt with in the very post you were quoting. You know if you want to actually be clever instead of pretending, you WILL actually have to read other peoples' posts properly.

According to the laws of probability, if the probability of an event happening is smaller than 1 in 1/10^50, then the event will never happen

What bullsh*t is this? An event can have probability 0 and still happen, you know. This was one of the first things my first statistics lecturer ever said to me. You're trying to use a discipline you don't understand again. I warned you about that earlier, but you seem intent on making a fool of yourself.

What have experimenters measured the chance to be of an average-size protein happening naturally?
4.9 x 1/10^191
This is well beyond the laws of chance (1x1/10^50), and a protein is not even near to create a perfect living cell

Your ignorant abuse of statistics is actually painful at this stage. An average-sized protein doesn't just appear in full, and you would have to be extremely ignorant of biology to claim that. Bacteria didn't appear because a stretch of DNA a few million base pairs long suddenly spelled "bacteria". DNA wasn't even the beginning of life!

Life started off as very simple self-replicating machinery. Due to imperfect copying mechanisms bits and pieces got swapped in and out, some copies stuck together and the machines that were faster at replicating, or more resistant to outside forces just because they were bigger, just drowned out the rest. You see, once life has done something, no matter how improbable, it's going to keep on doing it as if it was inevitable from the beginning. It only has to happen once or twice and it's suddenly the new baseline.


And that's not even getting into the subject of post-translational modification of proteins, which allows for even bigger, more complex proteins.

No matter how huge the surrounding one considers, life cannot have had a random non -intelligence source.

Yes, it can. Do you think if you ignore the truth hard enough Allah will suddenly appear and say it was him all along?

your ignorance suddenly jumps in quality.... Not suspicious? See the below quote


Horizontal gene transfer (HGT) is cell-to-cell transfer of genetic material, usually plasmids or transposons. Plasmids are autonomous extrachromosomal parts of DNA. They may consist a variety of genes, including genes for mobilization and antibiotic resistance.

Horizontal gene transfer of plasmids merely transfers genetic material from one cell to another.unveiling of specific genes, like antibiotic resistance genes, via a plasmid can be good for bacterial survival..... on the other hand, Horizontal gene transfer of plasmids does not directly account for the origin of the gene being carried over, merely their migration within the microbial world.
The traveling of pre-existing genes and other genetic activity does not subject for the origin of the transferred activity.... I hope you get the point

Horizontal gene transfer often means a bacteria has multiple copies of the same gene. Since it only really needs the one, only one tends to be conserved between generations. That leaves the other copies open to mutation, imperfect replication, transposons rearranging stretches of DNA, or being ejected from the cell and subject to physical forces. Plenty of scope for change there. Once you have a redundant copy of a gene, it will change. If the changes stop it working, no big deal, there's a backup. If some of the changes give it a different function, then that cell has a new advantage. That's how it works.

All it takes is a few tiny changes for a gene to change function massively. Polyketide synthases (PKS) and nonribosomal peptide synthetases (NRPS) are a fine example. PKS and NRPS are all very very similar to eachother. They make long complicated proteins. They mostly consist of long repetitive sequences, which are easily formed by multiple copies of one small gene ending up neighbours. The bit of a PKS/NRP that defines what they make is a relatively tiny section of DNA, easily changed. And these tiny changes are responsible for a huge fraction of the drugs and antibiotics in use today.

Does my threats have any value... You are already threatening your existence.... You believe in no hell.... then why you feel these threats..... Why you are doubtful about your religious belief... why? professor why?

Please stop calling me professor. I'm finishing up a M.Sc. in bioinformatics. I'm far from the most learned microbiologist in Ireland, but even if I was still in secondary school I'd have known you were talking bollocks.

I was asking you to stop the threats because they make you look childish and stupid. I don't want you to look childish and stupid. I want a conversation with an adult capable of acting like a civilised human being for five minutes. It would be a nice bonus if you were able to admit you're wrong when people call you on it, but I'll make do with civilised.

You believe chance as God... You believe this world as God.... What is God... God creates things.... You think your creation is result of chance... Isn't chance your god...

No. I don't believe there is a god. I don't BELIEVE any of the things you're suggesting. There's almost nothing random about the creation of a human. A man and a woman have sex, they mix one chromosome from each of the pairs they possess in a cell that eventually becomes a person. An element of chance was involved, but not very much.

You need to get over this strange preconception you have about random chance and probability. It's not nearly as random as you seem to think. If you put a mix of eggs, flour and sugar in an oven for an hour or so, you shouldn't be shocked when a cake comes out.

Again you are mixing science with materialistic evolution.... You are helping people to understand and combat life-threatening diseases here.... That is science not materialistic evolution...... When you tried to explain science in terms of your religious belief then you are wasting your time as well the time of others.... When you say there is no intelligence source behind evolution, you inject the vein of science with a venom that has no cure......You don't believe in God that's your belief and you apply that belief on science to make science a religion with full of cheap myths...

And again, evolution IS science. I'll just say that again in big letters in case you decide to ignore it. EVOLUTION IS SCIENCE. It is a conclusion based on observing massive amounts of evidence. Its models have been INVALUABLE in modern medicine and biology. Again, you're ignoring everything I said. Why are you so determined to remain ignorant of the world around you? Are you just going to hold on to your superstitions and bigotry to the bitter end because you're afraid to see the world for what it really is?

Sarky

On another note, I do apologise to everyone else for the very large posts. But trying to sum up such complicated science in a few glib sentences like J C does is just bad science. And nobody wants to embarrass themselves like that, do they?

Doc_Savage

sarky keep the big posts coming... but i think the other lads kust skim them and ignore what they don't understand...

their recent flavour of the month has been the "chance" arguement. although i don't agree with the basis of the argument i still think it boils down to something like rolling a dice and predicting the outcome... although you may be wrong in the prediction the probability of the event includes the case of success... so they can't keep saying "chance is involved therefore it can't happen, it's decided intelligently". To me at least it doesn't make sense!

J C

fatmammycat wrote: »

Here's the thing, one day I thought I should believe in fairy tales. No one could prove unicorns don't exist, and there are stories of unicorns, so, well, I might as well believe in them. People SAY...they don't exist:rolleyes: but I have squirted my spunk thither and yon so somehow this proves unicorns exist - at least to my mind. And my neighbour is not a cnut, so also Polly Pocket ponies, and maybe Smurfs, exist.:D:D
LOLZIESS. JC

... so you're a believer in fairy tales ... and 'squirting spunk hither and yon' ... is that really how Materialistic Evolutionists, behave nowadays?

Listening to the thought processes of Evolutionists like you ... is another reason why I no longer believe in Evolution !!!:)

J C

dead one wrote: »

Very true, JC.... JC, i salute your courage how humble you are in caring these arrogant lads..... But, Alas these lads can't learn from you..... JC what is that thing which encourages you to care for these lads-- who are arrogant-- who don't believe in God ---- who believe chance is God....

I certainly don't care for them because of 'survival of the fittest' ... or 'differential reproductive success' ... which would encourage me to leave them in their ignorance, in the hope that I could benefit from that.

I have two reasons for wanting to help them ... as a Created Human Being I want to help all of my fellow Created Human Beings ... and as a believer in Jesus Christ, I love all sinners and want to Save them.

I also happen to believe that the truth, in and of itself, that God exists and created Mankind is very important ... as it sets all Men free, who accept it.

fatmammycat

J C wrote: »

A believer in fairy tales ... and 'squirting spunk hither and yon' ... is that really how Materialistic Evolutionists, behave nowadays?

Listening to the thought processes of Evolutionists like you ... is another reason why I no longer believe in Evolution !!!:)

Not 'believing' in evolution is like not believing in daylight. You're deluded with god waffle.

J C

himnextdoor wrote: »

Let me simplify. If you mix together the ingredients for bread and put the dough into a cold oven, you end up with dough. Put the same dough onto a hot oven and you get bread. Do you see?



Yes, because 'raw energy' has order; it 'imparts' it.

Raw energy can only produce useful functional artefacts when it is intelligently controlled and directed.

I the bread example, raw energy is intelligently contained and directed in an intelligently designed oven at an intelligently determined temperature for an intelligently determined length of time, if bread is to be produced from the (intelligently produced) dough.

If the dough was merely exposed to raw energy, charcoal would be the result !!!!

Raw energy always reduces order ... and it only ever increases order under intelligent direction via intelligently designed systems.

himnextdoor

J C wrote: »

Raw energy can only produce useful functional aretefacts when it is intelligently controlled and directed.

I the bread example, raw energy is intelligently contained and directed in an intelligently designed oven at an intelligently determined temperature for an intelligently determined length of time, if bread is to be produced from the (intelligently produced) dough.

If the dough was merely exposed to raw energy, charcoal would be the result !!!!

Raw energy always reduces order ... and it only ever increases order under intelligent direction.

And charcoal is produced in ovens that are too hot whilst dough is produced in cold ovens but there is a narrow, 'Goldilocks', band where bread is produced.

Venus is too hot, Mars is too cold but Earth is just right.

J C

fatmammycat wrote: »

Here's the thing, one day I thought I should believe in fairy tales. No one could prove unicorns don't exist, and there are stories of unicorns, so, well, I might as well believe in them.

......

Not 'believing' in evolution is like not believing in daylight. You're deluded with god waffle.

You're the one talking about believing in Fairy Tales ... I was merely asking if this belief is confined to you ... or do many other Evolutionists also believe in fairy tales???

Indeed, come to think about it, your fondness for fairytales shouldn't surprise me ...
... many evolution stories bear a remarkable resemblance to fairytales ... because they often have the following formula:
You start off with "once upon a time ... and far far away" ... you then insert your favourate 'millions of years' story ... and you end with ... "and their descendents became Humans and lived happily ever after".:)