"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

J C

robindch wrote: »

Mr McDurty studied kids-level science for a while, then spent a few dollars purchasing a diploma-mill-doctorate from that defunct outfit I mentioned, but have already forgotten the name of.

It would be good if you would not demean the term "doctor" by applying it to some dismal loser.

Robin, please don't destroy whatever credability you may think you have by making unfounded exaggerations about Dr McMurtry.

Since when did a BSc and an MSc from two State-Accreditied Universities become 'kids-level science'?

... and Dr McMurtry has a DD from a former Theological Seminary ... so I would ask you to extend the same level of respect to people of other faiths, that you would expect to be shown to yourself, by spelling Dr McMurtry's name properly.

dlofnep

J C wrote: »

... so what do you believe Evolution to be?

I'm not here to educate you. I'm more than happy for you to continue to post false assumptions of what evolution is, because you undermine your own argument.

What evolution doesn't discuss however is a spontaneous change from pondkind to mankind. It discusses how slight transformations over large periods of time through natural selection, allows for those best equipped to deal with their environment to survive, and those who cannot - fade into the history of time.

We have fossils dating back 2 million years that demonstrate the advancement of the Homo genus of at least 14 different members. We see advancements in tool use, control of the environment and an increase in brain size, of which we can assume an increase in intelligence also. We can analyse the DNA of Humans and Chimps and see the mass similarities between them.

We can look at the transition between species - For example, from fish to amphibians by looking at the likes of Panderichthys and Acanthostega. Every single fossil is always where it should be in the time scale.

Speciation has already been witnessed during our life-time. Evolution is a fact. It's something you're going to have to deal with.

J C wrote: »

I have probably forgotten more about evolution that you have ever learned!!!:)

So basically, you haven't read one book on evolution.

Delirium

He isn't a doctor of science, he's a "Doctor of Divinity" from a university that ended up in front of the US Attorney on accusations of being a sham university.

Information about Mr. McMurtry and his education, as well as some brief information about the university where he received his doctorate (From the website robin linked to earlier in the thread).

BS, University of Tennessee, Institute of Agriculture
This is an undergraduate degree in agriculture, not science.
McMurtry is not listed on their web site as a notable graduate although eleven astronauts and many scientists are!


MS, State University of New York, College of Environmental Science
SUNY is an umbrella for various institutions in New York state mainly providing vocational qualifications. The College of Environmental Science based in Syracuse concentrates on forestry and related areas. MS is a post graduate degree (masters degree). Its not clear what subject his MS is in, but it other sources listed below suggest forestry. Current MS degrees from this school are taught degrees and not research based. It is unclear if any research was involved in his MS.


DD, School of Theology, Columbus, Georgia
DD is a Doctor of Divinity (i.e. theology) and is not related to any scientific discipline. Dr McMurtry has stated in interviews that it is a doctorate in Christian apolagetics.

I cannot locate such a school of theology.

No link to it from his web site, but on http://www.lwcf.com/college/faculty.htm he is listed as having a degree from Christian Life School of Theology, so this may be the correct name.

This is listed as a private college at http://www.directoryofeducation.net/colleges_universities/USA/Georgia/Christian+Life+School+of+Theology/508/

Their web site www.clst.edu is not working and the domain name appears to no longer be registered.

Their web site was linked from the page footers on http://www.lwcf.com/college/info.htm which is a non accredited bible college so there may be some connection between them.

According to http://www.ohwy.com/ga/h/hx425302.htm
"Christian Life School Of Theology is a non-profit private institution, located in Columbus, Muscogee County, GA. Total enrollment is approximately 50. The program lasts for less than one year. Popular programs include Religion/Religious Studies."

Update 20/05/2011
The founder of Christian Life School of Theology, Ronald Cottle, has been accused by the US Attorney of runing a sham university called Tri-Valley University. This follows complaints about Christian Life School of Theology (which later changed its name to "Beacon University").

J C

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not here to educate you. I'm more than happy for you to continue to post false assumptions of what evolution is, because you undermine your own argument.
Luckily I don't need your 'education' AKA 'brainwashing'!!!

What evolution doesn't discuss however is a spontaneous change from pondkind to mankind.
Just as well ... given the fact that it never occurred!!!

It discusses how slight transformations over large periods of time through natural selection, allows for those best equipped to deal with their environment to survive, and those who cannot - fade into the history of time.
So bacteria continued to be bacteria ... fish continued to be fish ... and Humans continued to be Humans ... with some Natural, artificial and sexual selection of the originally created CFSI in the genomes of each Kind!!!

We have fossils dating back 2 million years that demonstrate the advancement of the Homo genus of at least 14 different members. We see advancements in tool use, control of the environment and an increase in brain size, of which we can assume an increase in intelligence also. We can analyse the DNA of Humans and Chimps and see the mass similarities between them.
All evidence for a common Designer!!

We can look at the transition between species - For example, from fish to amphibians by looking at the likes of Panderichthys and Acanthostega. Every single fossil is always where it should be in the time scale.
... there are no trasnsitions ... as they are a physical impossibility ... and (unsurprisingly) they have never been found!!

Speciation has already been witnessed during our life-time. Evolution is a fact. It's something you're going to have to deal with.
Speciation occurs rapidly using pre-existing genetic diversity.
It is one of the reasons why all Base Kinds could fit on Noah's Ark


So basically, you haven't read one book on evolution.
I have read enough to know it's a load of baloney ... and to roundly defeat you guys on every point you make!!!
Like I have said, I have probably forgotten more about Evolution than you guys know about it.

.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

I have read enough to know it's a load of baloney ... and to roundly defeat you guys on every point you make!!!
Like I have said, I have probably forgotten more about Evolution than you guys know about it.

no you haven't, you still have yet to discuss the paper that was posted for you to discuss over a month ago. Not to mention various other video and documents which you failed to disprove.

J C

koth wrote: »

He isn't a doctor of science,

Nobody said that he was!!!!

koth wrote: »

... he's a "Doctor of Divinity" from a university that ended up in front of the US Attorney on accusations of being a sham university.

Like I have previously said, he has a BSc and an MSc from two State-Accreditied Universities
... and Dr McMurtry has a DD (or Doctor of Divinity) from a former Theological Seminary.

... and the charge of 'sham university' doesn't apply to the Theological Seminary which awarded Dr McMurtry his DD as it wasn't Tri-valley University.

dlofnep

Ok JC - You are too stupid to discuss anything further with. You've earned a place on my ignore list.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

Like I have said he has a BSc and an MSc from two State-Accreditied Universities
... and Dr McMurtry has a DD (or Doctor of Divinity) from a former Theological Seminary.

... and the charge of 'sham university' doesn't apply to the Theological Seminary which awarded Dr McMurtry his DD as it wasn't Tri-valley University.

best to re-read what I posted.

The founder of Christian Life School of Theology, Ronald Cottle, has been accused by the US Attorney of runing a sham university called Tri-Valley University. This follows complaints about Christian Life School of Theology (which later changed its name to "Beacon University").

FYI, Christian Life changed it's name to Beacon University after they (Christian Life) were taken to court after they duped students into believing it was an accredited university.

From the linked page:

The school to reach a settlement with the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board in 2003, agreeing to refund tuition. Christian Life, which later changed its name to Beacon University, also received a settlement payment in exchange for no longer awarding degrees, according to a report in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

So the school he received his DD is the same school that is up in front of the US attorney

J C

dlofnep wrote: »

Ok JC - You are too stupid to discuss anything further with. You've earned a place on my ignore list.

I have a bit of advice for you from Groucho Marx ...
... he once said that you should never leave in a huff ...
... you should always leave in a minute and a huff ...
... and if you can't leave in a minute and a huff, you should leave in a taxi!!!:)

J C

koth wrote: »

best to re-read what I posted.

Quote:-
Christian Life students complained that they had been duped into believing the school was accredited, prompting the school to reach a settlement with the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board in 2003, agreeing to refund tuition. Christian Life, which later changed its name to Beacon University, also received a settlement payment in exchange for no longer awarding degrees, according to a report in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

So the school he received his DD is the same school that is up in front of the US attorney

I think that you should take your own advice and read what you posted.

The article says that Christian Life received a settlement payment in exchange for no longer awarding degrees. It would appear that Christian Life closed down and paid back money to its students with a settlement reached with the Higher Education Board for agreeing to not award further degrees.

... so the school that awarded him his DD seems to be closed down, since 2003, as part of a settlement with the HECB.

There is no implication that the degrees awarded prior to closure are invalid.

Delirium

yes there are. firstly, it wasn't an accrredited university so none of their degrees would be recognised by the educational authorities.

and secondly, the renamed university has had a case opened up by the US attorney due to complaints about Christian Life.

so it looks like McMurtry has a degree that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

J C

koth wrote: »

yes there are. firstly, it wasn't an accrredited university so none of their degrees would be recognised by the educational authorities.

and secondly, the renamed university has had a case opened up by the US attorney due to complaints about Christian Life.

so it looks like McMurtry has a degree that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

You seem to have a problem with facts ... which seems to be an occupational hazard ... for the Atheistic contributors on this thread!!!

The university currently under investigation is Tri-valley ...
Quote:-
"Tri-Valley University is still under investigation and no criminal charges have been filed, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office said."

... and Dr McMurtry's DD degree is valid ... except perhaps in the eyes of some militant atheists like yourselves ... but then again ... any Degree in Theology or Divinity wouldn't rank very highly in the minds of you guys anyway!!!

... in this regard here is an account of a landmark Supreme Court case in Texas that took the concept of the separation of church and state to its logical conclusion ... if churches have no rights to interfere in state matters ... then the state has no right to interfere in church matters ... like the awarding of Theological Degrees and Doctorates.

Quote:-
"In Texas, a battle that pits consumer protection against the free exercise of religion is gathering momentum. A Texas Supreme Court case and a challenge in the Legislature could give the state's religious groups -- from Southern Baptists to Sikhs -- the power to grant degrees without any state oversight. Today, all schools, from Baylor University in Waco to Dallas Theological Seminary, must meet the state's higher education standards or have state-recognized accreditation to grant degrees and call themselves a college, university or seminary.

An exemption would free religious schools alone to grant degrees without recognized accreditation or, for that matter, any standards whatsoever.

That's the way it should be, say opponents of Texas' 30-year-old higher education law: Buyer beware.

Fully accredited schools such as Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth have joined the fight. In court documents, the seminary, one of the nation's largest, says the state has no business barring churches, synagogues and mosques from awarding bachelor's, master's and doctoral degrees.

Kelly Shackelford, chief counsel of the Liberty Legal Institute in Plano, which often champions religious-liberty cases, argues that the law prevents religious schools from training clergy. He said that without descriptions such as bachelor, master and doctor, there are no terms to describe that training."

BTW, the verdict was that the state didn't have the right to interfere in church matters, like the awarding of Theological Degrees and Doctorates!!!

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/Home/ADFContent?cid=4224

... so if it's not too much to ask would you please respect the Courts and Laws of the United States and behave with basic manners and the normal courtesies of civil society ... and call Dr McMurtry by his correct name and title.

wrote:

Originally Posted by [-0-]
Creationist filth should be executed for crimes against intelligence.

... and this guy was thanked for this 'contribution' to your forum ... and nobody demurred !!:(

Try replacing the word 'Creationist' with the word 'Jewish' ... and see how it sounds ... because, in many cases they are both Creationists and Jews!!:(

You are a disgrace to the word Atheist ... and your advocacy of the removal of religion ... up to and including the killing of religious believers is an absolute outrage. I know many decent Atheists who are as appalled as I am about such outbursts.

Delirium

wow, you'll ignore facts about subject.

Tri-Valley is Christian Life university under a new name, fact. <- (EDIT: JC has provided information to show I was incorrect about this).

Christian Life was not an accredited university, so their degrees would not be recognised by the American education system. This is also a fact.

I have no problem recognising a doctorate in theology from an accredited university.

And thanks for posting that quote to illustrate that religious groups in Texas wish to give out degrees without being accredited learning centres. If they don't want their degrees recognised by the state and other universities, they can fire ahead.

Anyways, you've offered no proof to show that McMurtry received his doctorate from an accredited university.

J C

koth wrote: »

wow, you'll ignore facts about subject.

Tri-Valley is Christian Life university under a new name, fact.

Tri-valley is not Christian Life under another name ... it is a completely separate entity run by a lady known as Susan Su.

koth wrote: »

Christian Life was not an accredited university, so their degrees would not be recognised by the American education system. This is also a fact.

I have no problem recognising a doctorate in theology from an accredited university.

And thanks for posting that quote to illustrate that religious groups in Texas wish to give out degrees without being accredited learning centres. If they don't want their degrees recognised by the state and other universities, they can fire ahead.

Anyways, you've offered no proof to show that McMurtry received his doctorate from an accredited university.

Did you not read the Texas Supreme Court Judgement that states that the State has no business accrediting Theological Degrees ... and it therefore isn't competent to do so!!!

... so all your 'catch 22' protestations about having no problem about recognising state-accredited doctorates in theology ... is just so much 'hot air' on your part!!!:eek:

Dr McMurtry has a state-accredited BSc and MSc ... and a DD from a former Theological Seminary ... that had a moral objection to seeking state-accreditation on the basis of Jesus Christ's admonition to render onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's ... and onto God, the things that are God's.
This was subsequently proven to be the legally valid position ... but the Seminary had closed by then.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

Tri-valley is not Christian Life under another name ... it is a completely separate entity run by a lady known as Susan Su ... and it seems to be working on non-theological degrees.

OK, managed to find info that backs that up, and that the founder of Christian Life was/is a member of the board of advisors.

Christian Life wasn't an accredited college, so the point still stands the degrees aren't worth much.

Did you not read the Texas Supreme Court Judgement that states that the State has no business accrediting Theological Degrees ... and it therefore isn't competent to do so!!!

... so all your 'catch 22' protestations about recognising state-accredited doctorates in theology ... is just so much 'hot air' on your part!!!:eek:

It's not a catch 22 as there are plenty of universities outside Texas that are accredited and provide doctorates in theology.

Dr McMurtry has a state-accredited BSc and MSc ... and a DD from a former Theological Seminary ... that had a moral objection to seeking state-accreditation on the basis of Jesus Christ's admonition to render onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's ... and onto God, the things that are God's.
This was subsequently proven to be the legally valid position ... but the Seminary had been forced to close before this happened ... and the staff had gone their separate ways!!!

Christian Life got into legal trouble for misleading students regarding the university having accreditation. If accreditation isn't a big deal for people studying in a seminary, then why did the students take legal action against Christian Life? And why were Christian Life made to promise not to issue any more degrees?

J C

koth wrote: »

OK, managed to find info that backs that up, and that the founder of Christian Life was/is a member of the board of advisors.

... so what?
... this proves nothing about the ownership and control of Tri-valley.

koth wrote: »

Christian Life wasn't an accredited college, so the point still stands the degrees aren't worth much.

You guys think that Theological Degrees aren't worth much anyway ... and ye are entitled to your opinions in this regard.

koth wrote: »

It's not a catch 22 as there are plenty of universities outside Texas that are accredited and provide doctorates in theology.

... all theological Seminaries are accredited ... usually by their church ... the Pontifical University in Maynooth, for example, is accredited ... by the Vatican ... and Roman Catholic Bishops and other clergy, have valid DDs as a result ... ditto Dr McMurtry!!!

koth wrote: »

Christian Life got into legal trouble for misleading students regarding the university having accreditation. If accreditation isn't a big deal for people studying in a seminary, then why did the students take legal action against Christian Life? And why were Christian Life made to promise not to issue any more degrees?

That was all before the Texas Supreme Court decision in 2005 to strike down the law requiring all Seminaries to be state-accredited.

J C

amacachi wrote: »

It's so disappointing to constantly see that there are new posts in this thread.

The Atheists on this thread are like a Moth drawn to the flame ... of Creationist Truth!!!:):D

They do it in spite of themselves ... because the truth is irresistable to them ... even when their worldview is destroyed in the process!!!:)

Be still and know that Jesus Christ is Lord ... and loves you ... and wants to Save you.

The Mad Hatter

So, think you've gotten away with the change of subject and won't have to address that paper, J C?

J C

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

So, think you've gotten away with the change of subject and won't have to address that paper, J C?

... Whenever ye get around to presenting any evidence for your claims I will deal with them.

... until then I will bask in the wisdom that the Holy Spirit gives me.:):D

Sarky

So you're going to hide from it again. You are utterly pathetic.

J C

Sarky wrote: »

So you're going to hide from it again. You are utterly pathetic.

... no ... just on a winning streak ... over you guys!!!:cool::cool:

... do ye never get tired of losing every point ... it's easy to become winner ... just become a Creation Scientist!!:)

Mbeep!!! ... Mbeep!!!:D

Temptamperu

J C wrote: »

... no ... just on a winning streak ... over you guys!!!:cool::cool:

... do ye never get tired of losing every point ... it's easy to become winner ... just become a Creation Scientist!!

Mbeep!!! ... Mbeep!!!:D

So, just bang your head of a wall for 45 minutes and you too can become a creation scientist.

MrPudding

Temptamperu wrote: »

So, just bang your head of a wall for 45 minutes and you too can become a creation scientist.

I don't think 45 minutes of banging your head against a wall, however enthusiastically, is enough to give even a person of average intelligence and cop on the amount of brain damage and mental retardation required to believe that creation science is anything other than utter utter bullsh1t.

MrP

robindch

J C wrote: »

... and Dr McMurtry has a DD from a former Theological Seminary ... so I would ask you to extend the same level of respect to people of other faiths, that you would expect to be shown to yourself, by spelling Dr McMurtry's name properly.

Mr McTurdy bought a piece of paper from some defunct religious outfit. For some reason he seems to think that this entitles him to be called "Doctor". It does not. And until he earns a doctorate from a real university, I'll treat him with the contempt that frauds deserve.

J C wrote: »

... and did it take you more than 3 years to pay the fee for your MA, Robin?

My four-year undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Limerick and took much work, smarts and money to complete (and was paid-for in full). Are you going to tell us your qualification and where you got it, or are you still too scared?

Remember Jesus died for your sins, but all you have to do is say what your qualification is! Are you brave enough?

J C wrote: »

I will bask in the victories that the Holy Spirit gives me

My advice -- lay off the spirits.

J C

MrPudding wrote: »

I don't think 45 minutes of banging your head against a wall, however enthusiastically, is enough to give even a person of average intelligence and cop on the amount of brain damage and mental retardation required to believe that creation science is anything other than utter utter bullsh1t.

MrP

You don't need to be brain damaged to see that Creation is true ...
... and banging ones head off a wall never does any good.

Temptamperu

J C wrote: »

You don't need to be brain damaged to see that Creation is true ...
... however, the brain damage as described by you, might indeed help somebody to accept something as illogical as Spontaneous Evolution.:)

You talk illogical in one post yet talk of holy spirits in another, the ironing is delicious JC.

J C

robindch wrote: »

Mr McTurdy bought a piece of paper from some defunct religious outfit. For some reason he seems to think that this entitles him to be called "Doctor". It does not. And until he earns a doctorate from a real university, I'll treat him with the contempt that frauds deserve.

You treat all Creationists with contempt ... so I don't think that your pontificating on Dr McMurdy's Theological qualifications carries any credibility whatsoever ... especially in view of your acute and repeated dyslexia in relation to his surname ... and your apparent lack of knowledge of Christian Theology!!!!:(

robindch wrote: »

My four-year undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Limerick and took much work, smarts and money to complete (and was paid-for in full).

Good for you Robin!!!

If you had gone to Trinity ... you could also have an MA, by now!!!:)

robindch wrote: »

Are you going to tell us your qualification and where you got it, or are you still too scared?

No ... and No.

robindch wrote: »

Remember Jesus died for your sins,

I would suggest that you take account of this fact as well ... I have already benefitted from Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice ... by being Saved ... and you can, as well.

robindch wrote: »

... but all you have to do is say what your qualification is! Are you brave enough?

I am brave ... but not foolhardy ... Jesus advises all Christians in Matthew 10:16, to be as wise as serpents ... and as gentle as doves.:)

robindch wrote: »

... My advice -- lay off the spirits.

A moralising ... abstemious ... puritanical ... Atheist ... whatever next!!!:eek:

As a Christian I take all of the gifts of God in moderation ... and in accord with His advice.

Alcohol, in moderation, is a great blessing ... and its abuse is a great curse ... just like every other gift that God has given us!!!

J C

Temptamperu wrote: »

You talk illogical in one post yet talk of holy spirits in another, the ironing is delicious JC.

Claiming that Ponkind could ever spontaneously produce Mankind ... is illogical ...

... knowing that God exists and His Holy Spirit indwells you, when you are Saved, is wisdom.

Temptamperu wrote: »

... the ironing is delicious JC.

... I find that housework is a bit of a pain, myself ... but it is great to see that somebody enjoys it!!!:D

The Mad Hatter

J C wrote: »

You don't need to be brain damaged to see that Creation is true ...

...but it helps.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
You don't need to be brain damaged to see that Creation is true ...

The Mad Hatter
...but it helps.

... it doesn't actually ... brain damage helps nobody.