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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"
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I'm just wondering how something as highly specified and complex as an eye could evercome about through a combination of random mutation ... which destroys CFSI ... and a natural/sexual selection mechanism ... for the destroyedCFSI
Perhaps you'd like to explain it.
Yes, I would actually. First of all though, apologies to the other posters for rehashing this but these kind of bullsh1t cliched arguments really irritate me.
Ok, first of all, I will detail a simple mechanism which through a mutation-based deterministic process, the eye can evolve from nothing. Then I will go on to discuss the individual steps with reference to the established research and where we find examples of these intermediate steps in nature.
Ok, a simplified mechanism for the evolution of the human eye looks something like this.- A light sensitive patch of skin develops conferring an evolutionary advantage on the creature by allowing it to distinguish light from dark.
- Through the process of selection, the light sensitive patch becomes a shallow depression in the skin, allowing for some basic directionality, allowing the creature to sense movement and possibly evade predators.
- Next, the increased advantage gained by directionality is exploited and the depression becomes deeper and deeper until it becomes like a pinhole camera allowing for maximum information to be gained.
- Next, the mucus produced by the cells accumulates due to the narrowed opening.
- Then, the mucus hardens and forms a primitive lens which acts to concentrate the incoming light.
- After this, the cells forming the interior surface of the eye become free to move relative to the surrounding tissue, allowing for an even greater field of vision.
- Finally, the increasing use of movement of the eye leads to the development of muscle tissue around both the eye exterior and lens, putting both under control of the creature. We now have an eye similar to our own.
The first step in the process would seem to be the most problematic because once the ball is rolling, so to speak, the gradual refinements are easily explained by the determinism of natural selection.
However, the development of light sensitivity is well understood and we have a living intermediate to help us understand it.
This is Caenorhabditis elegans. It is a soil-dwelling nematode. It is a well studied species, with the research dating back to the 1970s. The development of light sensistivity in C. elegans is detailed here:
A Novel Molecular Solution for Ultraviolet Light Detection in Caenorhabditis elegans.
Research has also been done on cnidaria which provided more insights into the evolution of photosensitivity.
The Origins of Novel Protein Interactions during Animal Opsin Evolution.
The next stage in the mechanism is the development of the shallow depression and the introduction of directionality. One of the best living examples of this is the genus of flatworm known as Planaria.
This is Polycelis felina, a freshwater flatworm. One of its sister species, Polycelis auricularia has provided researchers with tremendous insight into eye evolution including:
Chance and necessity in eye evolution
New Perspectives on Eye Development and the Evolution of Eyes and Photoreceptors
The genetic control of eye development and its implications for the evolution of the various eye-types
Next, we move on to the exaggerated form of the shallow depression, namely the pinhole camera eye. Here, we turn to cephalopods as the best living example of this intermediate stage.
This is Nautilus belauensis, which is responsible for those nice shells people seem to think make good ashtrays. Not only that but studying these cephalopods has also helped us to better understand not only the evolution of the eye but also convergent evolution which dlofnep previously explained.
Charting Evolution’s Trajectory: Using Molluscan Eye Diversity to Understand Parallel and Convergent Evolution
New perspectives on eye evolution (Abstract only)
Evolution of the cephalopod head complex by assembly of multiple molluscan body parts: Evidence from Nautilus embryonic development
The last intermediate stage that we have is the development of a primitive lens due to the hardening of accumulated mucus in the pinhole camera eye. Again we also have a living example of this intermediate stage in the form of the octopus.
Just as with the Nautilus, comparative study of the evolution of octopus eyes has provided support for convergent evolution and for the evolution of the human eye. Some more research for you to digest now.
A wide-angle gradient index optical model of the crystalline lens and eye of the octopus (Abstract only)
Comparative Analysis of Gene Expression for Convergent Evolution of Camera Eye Between Octopus and Human
Genetic mechanisms involved in the evolution of the cephalopod camera eye revealed by transcriptomic and developmental studies
So, now JC, we have an incremental mechanism for the development of the eye from its simplest possible form to an eye roughly analagous to that possessed by humans. In nature we find each intermediate step realised through different extant creatures and we have a massive volume of research to support the evolution of the eye. Now, if you want we can move this discussion deeper and discuss the evolutionary development of thinks like rhodopsin, the molecule responsible for photosensitivity or the Pax6 gene, which plays a crucial role in eye evolution but I suspect that what I have already posted is beyond you.
Finally, just one more note on the awesome power of science which you have so utterly failed to recognise. As far as the evolution of the eye is concerned we can also show that, without reference to external biological evidence, the evolution of the eye as a mathematical model poses no problems for evolution as a concept.
A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve
The evolution of the eye didn't pose a problem for Darwin when he wrote Origin and it doesn't pose any problem for scientists over a hundred years later but I guess dishonest charlatans like you JC would rather stick to your quote-mined bull**** than invest time in learning how things really work.
Oh and one more thing. This is the ad hominem fallacy. Please read it and try to understand that you're talking bull**** by accusing people of making ad hominems against you.0 -
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There is plenty of evidence for evolution on this thread, JC. by repeatedly stating that there isn't, you are either unable to comprehend the evidence or lying.
And no one is saying science should be protected from Christian creation stories. They're generally saying that it isn't science. If you took off your religious blinkers long enough to do some reading, you'd understand that too
If you can read this, you're too close!
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Koth ... this is a Creation Science exam that you're supposed to mark ... and not some piece of Evolutionist Mantra ... things like "we are here, so we arose spontaneously from nothing ... via a series of selected mistakes"!!!!
... we expect much higher standards than that in Creation Science!!!:)
... so I think we'll have get a Creation Scientist to set and mark the paper!!:eek::)
Sorry, I was just trying to tow the creationist lie. You know, dispose of science and just hand out faux-diplomas in an attempt to gain credibility.
and some remedial study material for you to go over
If you can read this, you're too close!
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.Yes, I would actually. First of all though, apologies to the other posters for rehashing this but these kind of bullsh1t cliched arguments really irritate me.
No need to apologise ... please just get on with it.
Ok, first of all, I will detail a simple mechanism which through a mutation-based deterministic process, the eye can evolve from nothing.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this!!!
Then I will go on to discuss the individual steps with reference to the established research and where we find examples of these intermediate steps in nature.
You wouldn't be confusing different separately created eye mechanism and mechanisms that have degenerated since their Creation in line with the Laws of Thermodynamics ... with your belief that these represent separate stages on a putative 'evolutionary' ... would you?
Ok, a simplified mechanism for the evolution of the human eye looks something like this.- A light sensitive patch of skin develops conferring an evolutionary advantage on the creature by allowing it to distinguish light from dark.
... so are you saying ... as the late Tommy Cooper might say ... that this happened 'just like that'???!!!
Do you realise the the inordinate levels of Complex Functional Specified Genetic Information required to produce sustain and utilise even a simple 'light sensitive patch of skin'??? - Through the process of selection, the light sensitive patch becomes a shallow depression in the skin, allowing for some basic directionality, allowing the creature to sense movement and possibly evade predators.
Such a sophistated ... and complex functional and specified devlopment requires that it be produced ... before it can be selected.
Such CFSI cannot be spontaneously produced ... even though it can be naturally or sexually selected when it's produced.
Your theory so far is a bit short on production ... and a little long on selection. NS may explain the survival of particular beneficial structures, once they're produced by intelligent design ... but it doesn't explain the arrival of such structures. - Next, the increased advantage gained by directionality is exploited and the depression becomes deeper and deeper until it becomes like a pinhole camera allowing for maximum information to be gained.
Again, a great story ... but this type of spontaneous positive change is never observed to occur with non-intelligently directed processes ... they remain static ... or degenerate if random changes are made to them. - Next, the mucus produced by the cells accumulates due to the narrowed opening.
- Then, the mucus hardens and forms a primitive lens which acts to concentrate the incoming light.
Another great story ... but anybody with a cold can tell you that mucus never sponteously forms a lens ... it just forms a useless snot!!! - After this, the cells forming the interior surface of the eye become free to move relative to the surrounding tissue, allowing for an even greater field of vision.
Free to move ... eh ... and they randomly moved to the perfect positions all by themselves. Have you ever seen such random processes ever spontaneously produce anything useful anywhere else??? - Finally, the increasing use of movement of the eye leads to the development of muscle tissue around both the eye exterior and lens, putting both under control of the creature. We now have an eye similar to our own.
Again it's a great story ... but because there is nothing to back it up ... I'm not buying it!!!
The first step in the process would seem to be the most problematic because once the ball is rolling, so to speak, the gradual refinements are easily explained by the determinism of natural selection.
... you keep 'jumping the gun' straight into NS (which is capable of selection) ... but you ignore the provision of any plausible mechanism for the production of the complex functional specifed systems that NS then supposely selected.
However, the development of light sensitivity is well understood and we have a living intermediate to help us understand it.
... do you know what are the genetic CFSI that supports this 'light sensitivity'???
... they are giga ... and they are tightly specified ... which mathematically rules out random processes like mutagenesis!!!
This is Caenorhabditis elegans. It is a soil-dwelling nematode. It is a well studied species, with the research dating back to the 1970s. The development of light sensistivity in C. elegans is detailed here:
A Novel Molecular Solution for Ultraviolet Light Detection in Caenorhabditis elegans.
... so lets look at the Abstract:-
For many organisms the ability to transduce light into cellular signals is crucial for survival. Light stimulates DNA repair and metabolism changes in bacteria, avoidance responses in single-cell organisms, attraction responses in plants, and both visual and nonvisual perception in animals.
All of these mechanisms involve inordinate amounts of CFSI mediated design.
Despite these widely differing responses, in all of nature there are only six known families of proteins that can transduce light.
... and how long do you think it would take random mutation to produce any of these six specific proteins in a particular time and place when there is an effective infinity of nonlight transducing proteins???Although the roundworm Caenorhabditis elegans has none of the known light transduction systems, we show here that C. elegans strongly accelerates its locomotion in response to blue or shorter wavelengths of light, with maximal responsiveness to ultraviolet light. Our data suggest that C. elegans uses this light response to escape the lethal doses of sunlight that permeate its habitat. Short-wavelength light drives locomotion by bypassing two critical signals, cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) and diacylglycerol (DAG), that neurons use to shape and control behaviors. C. elegans mutants lacking these signals are paralyzed and unresponsive to harsh physical stimuli in ambient light, but short-wavelength light rapidly rescues their paralysis and restores normal levels of coordinated locomotion. This light response is mediated by LITE-1, a novel ultraviolet light receptor that acts in neurons and is a member of the invertebrate Gustatory receptor (Gr) family.
All evidence of giga-bites of CFSI ... that are both complex and highly specified.
Heterologous expression of the receptor in muscle cells is sufficient to confer light responsiveness on cells that are normally unresponsive to light. Our results reveal a novel molecular solution for ultraviolet light detection and an unusual sensory modality in C. elegans that is unlike any previously described light response in any organism.No common acestor here with this uniquely created organism
Research has also been done on cnidaria which provided more insights into the evolution of photosensitivity.
The Origins of Novel Protein Interactions during Animal Opsin Evolution.
Once again evidence of gazillion bites of CFSI.
The next stage in the mechanism is the development of the shallow depression and the introduction of directionality. One of the best living examples of this is the genus of flatworm known as Planaria.
This is Polycelis felina, a freshwater flatworm. One of its sister species, Polycelis auricularia has provided researchers with tremendous insight into eye evolution including:
Chance and necessity in eye evolution
... so again, lets look at part of the Abstract:-Darwin’s theory of evolution is based on these same principles—random variation and natural selection. One of the greatest difficulties with his theory was to explain the origins of organs of extreme perfection, like the eyes of eagles, which seem to be designed for a given purpose.
Quite.
Darwin (1872) found a way out of this difficulty by assuming a very simple prototypic eye consisting of just two cells, a photoreceptor cell (“nerve”) and a pigment cell, shielding the light from one side, thus allowing the animal to detect the direction of the incoming light which confers a great selective advantage.
This is like trying to explain a super computer by using a flashlamp bulb and a battery and a knitting needle!!!
As selection can only become effective when an organ is functional, at least to a small extent, he considered the assembly of the prototypic eye as a merely stochastic event due to random variation. The pioneering work of Gregor Mendel showed that random variations were caused by mutations and that the predictions for the outcome of genetic crosses could be no more than statistical.
Gregor Mendel also discovered that practically all mutations are deleterious and recessive ... therby indicating that we are dealing with a once-perfect Creation that is 'running down' ... and not some Evolutionist 'pipe dream' that is capable 'running up' from a Worm to a Man!!!
Neo-Darwinists introduced genetics into evolutionary biology, but eye evolution remained enigmatic because it was assumed that the evolution of the various eye types occurred 40–60 times independently in the different animal phyla.
Sounds like it was Direct Creation rather than common ancestry.
New Perspectives on Eye Development and the Evolution of Eyes and Photoreceptors
The genetic control of eye development and its implications for the evolution of the various eye-types
Next, we move on to the exaggerated form of the shallow depression, namely the pinhole camera eye. Here, we turn to cephalopods as the best living example of this intermediate stage.
These have uniquely (and intelligently designed) eyes ... and they are clearly not some 'intermediary' going nowhere in a hurry.
This is Nautilus belauensis, which is responsible for those nice shells people seem to think make good ashtrays. Not only that but studying these cephalopods has also helped us to better understand not only the evolution of the eye but also convergent evolution which dlofnep previously explained.
Charting Evolution’s Trajectory: Using Molluscan Eye Diversity to Understand Parallel and Convergent Evolution
Parallel Creation ... and the Creation of homologous structures.
New perspectives on eye evolution (Abstract only)
Evolution of the cephalopod head complex by assembly of multiple molluscan body parts: Evidence from Nautilus embryonic development
The last intermediate stage that we have is the development of a primitive lens due to the hardening of accumulated mucus in the pinhole camera eye. Again we also have a living example of this intermediate stage in the form of the octopus.
... so the Octopus has a snot in its eyes ... and can see clearly???
... come on oldrnwisr ... just think about what you're saying.
Just as with the Nautilus, comparative study of the evolution of octopus eyes has provided support for convergent evolution and for the evolution of the human eye. Some more research for you to digest now.
A wide-angle gradient index optical model of the crystalline lens and eye of the octopus (Abstract only)
Comparative Analysis of Gene Expression for Convergent Evolution of Camera Eye Between Octopus and Human
Genetic mechanisms involved in the evolution of the cephalopod camera eye revealed by transcriptomic and developmental studies
None of this has anything to do with how Human Eyes were created.
So, now JC, we have an incremental mechanism for the development of the eye from its simplest possible form to an eye roughly analagous to that possessed by humans. In nature we find each intermediate step realised through different extant creatures and we have a massive volume of research to support the evolution of the eye. Now, if you want we can move this discussion deeper and discuss the evolutionary development of thinks like rhodopsin, the molecule responsible for photosensitivity or the Pax6 gene, which plays a crucial role in eye evolution but I suspect that what I have already posted is beyond you.
What you are doing is projecting your wordview onto aspects of the eyes of these diverse intelligently designed creatures ... and linking the whole thing up with imaginative stories.
Finally, just one more note on the awesome power of science which you have so utterly failed to recognise. As far as the evolution of the eye is concerned we can also show that, without reference to external biological evidence, the evolution of the eye as a mathematical model poses no problems for evolution as a concept.
Superficially, the story is a good one ... but it rapidly falls apart under closer scrutiny ... of the Complex Functional Specified Genetic Information that produces the different eyes in different organisms.
A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve
Again the assumption is that necessity will result in the production of structure to meet it ... but this isn't out experience ... if you have a need ... blind nature won't ever meet it ... only the appliance of intelligence can produce structures that meet needs.
The evolution of the eye didn't pose a problem for Darwin when he wrote Origin and it doesn't pose any problem for scientists over a hundred years later but I guess dishonest charlatans like you JC would rather stick to your quote-mined bull**** than invest time in learning how things really work.
... more use of Ad Hominem references about me ... when you don't have the evidence to support your conrtentions.
Oh and one more thing. This is the ad hominem fallacy. Please read it and try to understand that you're talking bull**** by accusing people of making ad hominems against you.
... an Ad Hominem fallacy occurs when somebody abuses the person making an argument ... rather than addressing the substance of the argument that is being made.
For example, calling me a Charalatan is a Ad Hominem attach on me ... rather than addressing the arguments that I am making.0 - A light sensitive patch of skin develops conferring an evolutionary advantage on the creature by allowing it to distinguish light from dark.
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I think you need to read this again, JC.
Your attempts to address oldrnwsrs post is extremely lacking in any sort of science/detail. Most of the post is just repeating, "but it requires CFSI, which points to a creator". You also dismiss links in the post as having nothing to do with the evolution of the human eye, even though they do.
Would you not try and raise the standard of your posts to something close to the type of response that the post deserved?
And you're still using Ad Hominem incorrectly.If you can read this, you're too close!
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So the take-home message is that Evolution doesn't mean much to anybody ... except perhaps faith-filled Evolutionists!!!:)Sorry, I was just trying to tow the creationist lie. You know, dispose of science and just hand out faux-diplomas in an attempt to gain credibility.
and some remedial study material for you to go over
Quite true.0 -
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I've spent the last two evenings reading this thread from start to finish.
First, I'd like to thank oldrnwiser for his amazing posts (that I am off to re-read and follow all the linkies). I've not studied biology since my junior cert and although some of terminology in your posts was a little over my head I thouroughly enjoyed reading them and I look forward to reading more from you!
In the words of Kyle Broflowski "I learned something today!"
J.C. - You're fighting a losing battle here, in fact you lost a long time ago. I've read all your responses on this thread and I'm pretty certain that your getting a kick out of all the frustration you are causing by ignoring posts directed at you, avoiding/half answering questions. Grow up and argue your points evidence as clearly and concisely as oldrnwiser has done and maybe you might get somewhere.0 -
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This discussion has been closed.
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