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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    Sarky wrote: »
    I think I'm going to turn this thread into a drinking game. Drink each time someone posts:

    "just a theory"
    "science doesn't know everything"

    One shot of whiskey for each consecutive smiley face.

    So, alcohol poisoning it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    mickrock wrote: »
    The letter A is specified but not complex. A book full of random letters is complex but not specified. A normal book is both specified and complex and so it carries a lot of information. A similar idea can apply to DNA to quantify the information content.

    Actually, 2000 pages of random characters contains more "information" than a 2000 page book. If you were to remove all of the vowels from 2000 pages of random characters and from a 2000 page book, the book would be easier to reconstruct than the 2000 pages of random characters.


    edit: And another thing that just occurred to me. If you don't believe in speciation by means of natural selection, how do you explain the homology of certain genes between different species? How do you explain the fusion of 2 ancestral chromosomes into what is now chromosome 2 in humans but are 2 separate chromosomes in all the other great apes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭General Relativity


    mickrock wrote: »
    The main problem you have is that you seem to have forgotten that neo-Darwinism is just a theory.


    7e8.jpg

    Any excuse to post this tbh;

    Firstly, facts are not included in this hierarchy. Something does not go from hypothesis to theory to fact, it goes from hypothesis to theory with facts used to make that jump. Facts are observed properties of the world.

    Secondly, in the traditional science world, a hypothesis comes in this form:

    If ... then ... because.

    If I hit you, then it will hurt, because your nerve endings translate damage to your body as pain.

    With all that out of the way, here's an example of the scientific hierarchy at work:

    Hypothesis: If I make a sound underwater, then it will travel slower than it would in air, because water is thick and it takes time for things to move through it.

    To prove this hypothesis, we must perform reliable, testable, and repeatable experiments, in which our observed facts may or may not hold up to our hypothesis.

    Fact: It takes .05 seconds for a sound generated at point A to be heard at point B, above water. Points A and B will stay the same distance apart throughout this experiment.

    Fact: It takes .03 seconds for a sound generated at point A to be heard at point B, below water.

    Our original hypothesis has just been disproved.

    Because an observed fact just contradicted our hypothesis, that means we must change our hypothesis to fit the data. So:

    If I make a sound underwater, then it will travel faster than it would in air, because water and air are made up of particles that carry sound, and in water they're closer together.

    This new hypothesis supports the data, so that should be it, right? Wrong. The new hypothesis puts forth an interesting statement: Water and Air are made up of sound-carrying particles. That, in itself, is a hypothesis. So how do we prove it? We devise a cunning and imaginative experiment to prove it!

    First, we need another hypothesis we can use to help guide this experiment:

    If I make a sound underwater, then it will travel through the water, because sound is a wave translated through the water particles.

    Obviously, now we have to show that sound is a wave. Then, we'll have to show that particles transmit waves.

    So, let's see how we can show that sound is a wave. According to the equations of wave-dynamics, different frequency waves will set up troughs of cancelation and fortification. In that: sometimes, waves will cancel each other out, and other times they'll fortify themselves; add to themselves. So let's prove that sound does the same thing.

    Firstly, let's get a clear plastic tube. In this tube, we will put a bunch of tiny, light, white, ball-like particles. On one end of the tube, we will have two variable sound-transmitters. We set one of these transmitters to emit a sustained note, and we observe a fact: the particles begin to vibrate and move, and arrange themselves into a wave! But we haven't proved anything yet; they may look like a wave, but we haven't shown that they behave according to the set laws of wave dynamics. So we start the other note (carefully tuned to produce the cancelation and fortification effects when it reacts with the first note), and lo and behold, the particles show cancelation and fortification troughs, in the exact frequency the equations of wave-dynamics predict!

    So, with one experiment, we've shown that particles can transmit waves, and that sound is a wave.

    Back to water and air:

    Our third hypothesis, "If I make a sound underwater, then it will travel through the water, because sound is a wave translated through the water particles" has been proven. This should help to support our second hypothesis: "If I make a sound underwater, then it will travel faster than it would in air, because water and air are made up of particles that carry sound, and in water they're closer together". But how do we show that sound travels faster when particles are closer together? We perform experiments and observe facts! (I'm running low on creativity here, so like hell I'm describing another experiment. I'll just give you the resultssmile.png

    Fact: In denser materials, particles are closer together, and so have less distance to cover when they bump into each other.

    Since waves are transmitted when particles bump into each other, we can show that, since water is denser than air (and so its particles are closer together), a sound wave is transmitted faster through water than air. And so, our hypothesis is proven, and now we have a theory.

    Theory: Sound travels faster as the medium gets denser.

    This theory will never become fact. Ever. It will always remain theory. Unless, of course, someone can come up with contradictory evidence, in which case we'd have to go through the whole process again to fit the new data.

    So, let me say it again:

    1. Observed fact.

    2. Hypothesis.

    3. Contradictory data.

    4. New hypothesis.

    5. Supportive data.

    6. (test, test, test, test ,test!!!)

    7. Theory!

    8. Contradictory data frown.png

    9. Hypothesis

    Ad infinitum.

    Tl;DR: http://readingeggs.co.uk/


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    mickrock wrote: »
    The main problem you have is that you seem to have forgotten that neo-Darwinism is just a theory. You treat all of it like it is irrefutable fact. "We evolved from animals that once fed on grass" is just a supposition, as is the idea of common descent from a first life form.

    Okey dokey, we're going to have to do this in baby steps aren't we? First off, you need to separate the fact of evolution from the theory of evolution. Evolution is a fact in that we observe change in populations over time and a theory in that natural selection is the mechanism by which this change proceeds. Secondly, as Pope Palpatine and General Relativity have pointed out, you don't seem to understand what a theory is. A fact is a component of a theory not some hierarchical level.

    As for the evolving from animals that once fed on grass, it is not a supposition but a detailed explanation supported by overwhelming concordant and overlapping evidence from multiple fields including but not limited to palaeontology, genetics, physiology, biochemistry etc. I have previously outlined the evolutionary path of Homo Sapiens here.

    mickrock wrote: »
    You say that evolution has nothing to do with complexity. But the fact is that there are degrees of complexity in living forms which neo-Darwinism is supposedly able to explain so I'm just questioning whether the theory is up to the job of explaining the facts.

    Questioning implies the desire to get an answer. Nothing you have posted in this thread so far has suggested that answers are what you're here for. Multiple posters have answered your misunderstandings and questions on evolution and yet you've ignored all of them.

    mickrock wrote: »
    Regarding the relationship between information and complexity how about:
    Information=Specified Complexity

    The letter A is specified but not complex. A book full of random letters is complex but not specified. A normal book is both specified and complex and so it carries a lot of information. A similar idea can apply to DNA to quantify the information content.

    Look before you start nailing your colours to the ID mast, you may want to read back over the bulk of this thread since it deals with JC's feeble attempts to defend and explain a concept which the author of the concept (Dembski) has been unwilling and unable to do. Dembski's work stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the work of Claude Shannon and a thinly veiled attempt to tack his "idea" on to the authors of respected biology research. In formulating specified complexity Dembski proposes a trichotomy to explain the appearance of changes in an organism: chance, regularity and design. However, before Dembski was even born the pioneering biologist JBS Haldane already proposed mutations as something which fulfilled each of these criteria. Dembski is a hack, a meagre scientist who composed a bit of pseudoscientific fluff to try and browbeat dumb christians into letting religion into science classes.

    mickrock wrote: »
    You ask how I propose new genes and new information came about. I've no idea, but neo-Darwinism doesn't look like the answer, as the evidence is so flimsy.

    What do you mean you've no idea? Ziphius, doctoremma and others have provided examples for you of new information being added which you have discounted as merely reworking of existing information. So since you obviously know enough to have formulated a disqualification criterion then you should be able to explain what the complementary set of criteria is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    robindch wrote: »
    <pedant>

    I think it's better phrased as the process of parent organisms delivering more children into an environment than can survive in it, thereby using the environment to determine which descendant alleles survive into adulthood so that they can reproduce themselves and continue the process.

    The concept of "adaption of organisms" is mildly misleading since there are generations of organisms, none of which are identical and, crucially, none of which adapt. Although the organisms contain genes which produce phenotypes which do appear to adapt, hence the shorthand.

    </pedant>

    Yes, Robin you're right. I thought going into specifics and papers might have detracted from the overall aim of the post but now I get the impression that I might be wasting my time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    mickrock wrote: »
    The main problem you have is that you seem to have forgotten that neo-Darwinism is just a theory.

    So is the theory of gravity. Try jumping out a window sometime, and let me know how your complete misunderstanding of the term 'theory' goes for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    First off, you need to separate the fact of evolution from the theory of evolution. Evolution is a fact in that we observe change in populations over time and a theory in that natural selection is the mechanism by which this change proceeds.

    You're being a bit slippery here.

    Yes, there are changes in populations. The length of finchs' beaks change and the colour of peppered moths change. They are facts.

    That all life forms descended from a single life form isn't a fact. It can't be proved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.

    Yes, there are changes in populations. The length of finchs' beaks change and the colour of peppered moths change. They are facts.

    That all life forms descended from a single life form isn't a fact. It can't be proved.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=56087&d=1348177135

    Ok, you say it can't be proved. What's your alternative hypothesis? Scientific, preferably but if you've got something else I'd enjoy hearing it anyway for the comedy value.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    mickrock wrote: »
    That all life forms descended from a single life form isn't a fact. It can't be proved.

    It is a fact, and has been proven.

    Let's make a case for one branch of the primate tree - Haplorhini. This branch of primates includes monkeys and apes (including humans). Now - if it were true that we all shared a common ancestor, there would be something genetically that would be visible within every single member of this tree, without fail. And there is.

    Every single member of the Haplorhini suborder has lost it's ability to self-synthesize vitamin C, unlike their distant relatives Strepsirrhini. Why have they lost their ability to produce vitamin C, and how do we know that they once had the ability to do so? Each member contains the pseudogene GLO. An enzyme which once served a function to produce vitamin C, but at some point in the past, the common ancestor for all Haplorhini lost it through mutations - and now must obtain vitamin from food sources opposed to self-synthesizing it.

    If we did not share a common ancestor, then this pseudogene would not be shared across the exact suborder of primates which we profess to share lineage with.

    Now seriously - get over it. You're the product of a billion years of evolution - act like it. Putting your fingers in your ears, screaming la-la-la while people present compelling evidence to you, only makes you look like an infantile child.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.
    Any chance you'll be defining what you mean by "information" any time soon?
    Or explaining what you would accept as an increase in information?
    Or that you'll outline what you think the origin of biological diversity is?
    Or actually address Oldrnwisr's points?

    Wouldn't want people to think you're being slippery would you?
    mickrock wrote: »
    Yes, there are changes in populations. The length of finchs' beaks change and the colour of peppered moths change. They are facts.
    So what you're saying is that allele frequency changes over time?

    So you believe in evolution.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.

    That reminds me, did you ever get around to defining 'infrmation'?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    wa_roundabout.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.

    Yes, there are changes in populations. The length of finchs' beaks change and the colour of peppered moths change. They are facts.

    That all life forms descended from a single life form isn't a fact. It can't be proved.


    Slippery? Moi? I guess you oughta know, what with avoiding everyone's points.

    Anyway, just what exactly can't be proven? Is it that we can't prove that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor? Or maybe it's that homininae and ponginae didn't evidently arise from hominidae? Or maybe it's that primatomorpha didn't descend from euarchonta, or maybe euarchonta didn't arise from euarchontoglires? For your suggestion to have any merit there must be some point in our phylogenetic tree where everything breaks down. So where is it?

    Here I'll even give you a visual aid so you can point to the spot where evolution fails:

    tree_Feb15_150dpi.jpg


    Sorry for the large image but I need it to make my point.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,414 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    mickrock wrote: »
    But the fact is that there are degrees of complexity in living forms which neo-Darwinism is supposedly able to explain so I'm just questioning whether the theory is up to the job of explaining the facts.
    Yes, the theory is up to explaining the facts. Posters here are up to explaining the facts. It's up to you whether you want to spend the ten minutes necessary to understand them.
    mickrock wrote: »
    Regarding the relationship between information and complexity how about: Information=Specified Complexity
    Not sure whether you got the note from the Discovery Institute, but William Dembski has abandoned the nonsense that is "Specified Complexity" and since funding was stopped for his "research center" which closed down following the catastrophe-that-was-the-Dover-judgement in 2005. And he's no longer promoting the idea of "specified complexity" even amongst creationists.

    Get with it, dude!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, the theory is up to explaining the facts. Posters here are up to explaining the facts. It's up to you whether you want to spend the ten minutes necessary to understand them.Not sure whether you got the note from the Discovery Institute, but William Dembski has abandoned the nonsense that is "Specified Complexity" and since funding was stopped for his "research center" which closed down following the catastrophe-that-was-the-Dover-judgement in 2005. And he's no longer promoting the idea of "specified complexity" even amongst creationists.

    Get with it, dude!
    Re-reg, sock puppet or troll. I simply can't make up my mind what he is.

    MrP


  • Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭sephir0th


    robindch wrote: »
    Not sure whether you got the note from the Discovery Institute, but William Dembski has abandoned the nonsense that is "Specified Complexity" and since funding was stopped for his "research center" which closed down following the catastrophe-that-was-the-Dover-judgement in 2005. And he's no longer promoting the idea of "specified complexity" even amongst creationists.

    Get with it, dude!

    What's the latest and greatest creationist/ID tactic?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Re-reg, sock puppet or troll. I simply can't make up my mind what he is.

    MrP

    All of the aforementioned, surely.

    puppet3.s600x600.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    sephir0th wrote: »
    What's the latest and greatest creationist/ID tactic?

    This:

    Question Evolution - 15 Questions for evolutionists



    Warning: This document contains monumental stupidity and reading it may cause your eyes to bleed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    This:

    Question Evolution - 15 Questions for evolutionists



    Warning: This document contains monumental stupidity and reading it may cause your eyes to bleed.
    Question evolution

    But not our story about how an invisible man in the sky did it all!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    On the plus side, she who must not be named hasn't returned....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    On the plus side, she who must not be named hasn't returned....

    Who dat?

    :confused:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,414 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    sephir0th wrote: »
    What's the latest and greatest creationist/ID tactic?
    Hard to say really. The 2005 mauling received by the creationist movement in Dover, the imprisonment of "Dr" Kent Hovind on a variety of criminal charges and the hilarious bunfight that took place between AIG and CMI (producers of the oldrnwisr's ghastly PDF above) all contributed to a decline in mainstream creationism. This was also reflected in the funding ladled out to the likes of Dumbski and others. I suspect that organized skeptics have probably helped to contribute to this decline too, not to mention the recession in general and the decline in what you could charitably call "discretionary" (insane) spending. The decline in fundamentalist religion isn't helping either. Doctor-Doctor Ham's Creation "museum" seems to be doing reasonably well, but at this stage, its rubbishy exhibits and ridiculous claims are old hat indeed and his latest and greatest creation theme park may well have been shelved quietly after it was found out that the state was helping to fund it by means of a range of highly-suspicious tax breaks. So far as I'm aware, the DI is still supporting ID and the infamous Wedge Document, but I don't believe it's pushing it in any way.

    In general, the creationism movement's strategy hasn't evolved since the mid-noughties and it'll certainly need to if, like any good organism, it wants to stay alive.

    Nice to see them come unstuck on a point of evolution.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,414 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Who dat?
    Her


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »

    Ah.

    Thought she was a he.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ah.

    Thought she was a he.

    I think Robin originally introduced the "J C is a girl" meme, presumably on the basis that nothing s/he says can be taken for granted as true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I think Robin originally introduced the "J C is a girl" meme, presumably on the basis that nothing s/he says can be taken for granted as true.

    I tend to skim JC's 'contributions' as my projected life span only gives me another 39/40 years so feck reading that tripe - life really is too short.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    mickrock wrote: »
    A book full of random letters is complex but not specified.
    How can you tell? Because you can't read it?
    mickrock wrote: »
    A normal book is both specified and complex and so it carries a lot of information.
    Because you can read it?

    You are the detector of "specified information" and it goes without saying that this detection is ridiculously and unscientifically subjective. Passing "information" through a human filter, who is going to decide what makes sense and what doesn't is, for me, the major flaw (if not the only one) in ID hypotheses.

    There are probably more books on this planet that I can't read than I can. In some cases, say a particularly exotic language in a different alphabet, I would have NO idea if I was looking at a genuinely random assortment of letters or a translation of The Catcher In The Rye.

    I am an imperfect filter to define how much information is carried in such a text.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen



    I think Robin originally introduced the "J C is a girl" meme, presumably on the basis that nothing s/he says can be taken for granted as true.
    I'm really mixed up now.....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    JC was a girl? Awe man. I was CONVINCED it was that guy who wrote that ridiculous book this thread is named after.

    Now I'm upset. :(


This discussion has been closed.
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