Irelands a total bargain at the moment compared to Germany and Holland

g32

mcwhirter wrote: »

Have you heard of a bus service outside of the main cities, no, thats right. What use is a commuter ticket to someone living 30 miles outside of dublin where there is 2 buses a day, and not even a park and ride nearby,

Actually, we were talking about the Trains, not the Bus. In which case, there can be a commuter ticket available even if you live 90 Km outside of Dublin.

mcwhirter

g32 wrote: »

Actually, we were talking about the Trains, not the Bus. In which case, there can be a commuter ticket available even if you live 90 Km outside of Dublin.

I have worked in italy, most of uk, and ireland has the worst public transport system out of those lot. Not sure about holland,germany or france.

Any poll has ireland low down in public transport system.

It is the lack of choice that is the problem, majority of people have no alternative but to drive their cars to work.

DubDani

There are so many wrong Informations in this thread about Germany, I don't even know where to start.

Church Tax in Germany is not 9% of your Salary, it is 9% of your Income Tax (big difference).

Not sure where you got the 700 Euro Health Insurance figure from. I just got my VHI renewal (which thank god my company pays), and it came to more then 2800 Euro for me, my wife and my daughter. And the provided benefits don't even come close to covering what is covered in Germany or the Netherlands.

Private Health Insurance is an option in Germany. Everybody in the state is included in the public National Health Insurance (like NHS in UK), and you can only go private if you earn 60K or more a year or are a public servant. And if you go private you can't easily move back into the public Health Insurance. Overall the Health System is FAR superior to the Irish one. The Health Insurance contributions also cover the whole family.

According to Nettolohn.de (Net Salary Calculator) a annual Salary of 50K for a Single breaks down as following (based on 12 months):

Salary 4.166,67
Pension Insurance (19%) 414,58 €
Unemployment Insurance (2.8%) 58,33 €
Social Care Insurance (2.2%) 45,93 €
Health Insurance (14.9%) 296,25 (this can very between 14&15%)
Income Tax 845,17 €
Solidarity Extra 46,48
Church Tax 76,06 €

Net Salary after Taxes: 2383.86 (28.606,34 € annual). You could bring that up a bit by finding a cheaper health insurer and by leaving the church (as you won't have to pay Church Tax then). BTW, if you are married and have one kid a Salary of 50K in Germany will give you net 2784 after deductions, which is equal and probably even slighly more then in Ireland. And it would give you a better health Insurance, better pension (if we still get one in 30 years) and better unemployment protection (at least for teh first 24 months).

I stayed in the Hilton in Munich a few weeks back for 80Euro a night. Very nice hotel, and the same would cost me 140-150 Euro in Dublin

g32

mcwhirter wrote: »

I have worked in italy, most of uk, and ireland has the worst public transport system out of those lot. Not sure about holland,germany or france.

Any poll has ireland low down in public transport system.

It is the lack of choice that is the problem, majority of people have no alternative but to drive their cars to work.

Of course Ireland is the worst. I think it is the affluence of society. People think they need a car to do anything. I mean travelling 500 Metres to the nearest shop to buy Milk. Many still ignored public transport when it was made available. I remember asking my neighbour why she gave up the Dart and the response was 'because everyone else at work have a car'.

We need investment in public transport.

parsi

mcwhirter wrote: »

Yes agree, I have driven on those roads and they are extremely good. The roads in france are far superior to irish roads, the tarmac is so smooth.
There is no need to use toll roads unless you are in an extreme hurry.
Compare the m3, n3 to the equivalent french roads, no comparison.

This thread is a wind up I am sure of it.

The main dual carriageways / motorways are excellent. The average D road has a good surface but is otherwise the same as an Irish "main road" - windy, no margin etc.

Some of the town/ village roads can be poorly surfaced eg St Lunaire.

g32

Another difference between Ireland and France: Ireland has an inefficient civil service (with no accountability) and whose workers cannot be fired from their job for misconduct or non-productivity (e.g. social welfare staff who take 4 weeks to organize 7 sheets of paper from someone who lost their job in the private sector).

parsi

g32 wrote: »

Another difference between Ireland and France: Ireland has an inefficient civil service (with no accountability) and whose workers cannot be fired from their job for misconduct or non-productivity (e.g. social welfare staff who take 4 weeks to organize 7 sheets of paper from someone who lost their job in the private sector).

Ah bless.

You obviously have never dealt with continental European beaureaucracy nor been in France when civil servants were on strike.

g32

parsi wrote: »

Ah bless.

You obviously have never dealt with continental European beaureaucracy nor been in France when civil servants were on strike.

You don't know what you're talking about. Compare the French to Irish civil service and I'll guarantee you the Irish one comes out the worst of all. I've lived in France so I should know!

keithclancy

g32 wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about. Compare the French to Irish civil service and I'll guarantee you the Irish one comes out the worst of all. I've lived in France so I should know!

The Civil Service on the Continent is no better, Belgium and France have about the worst reputation.

Holland you can be left in Limbo due to red tape.

In comparison the Tax Office are extremely helpful in Ireland, will explain how to fill out the forms etc. The Dutch Belastingdienst are about as helpful as a brick wall. Mate of mine had fierce hassle even getting a Bank account because the Tax office wouldn't give him a BSN (Berger Service Nummer) basically a PPSN Number.

They kept telling him he has to register with the IND (Foreign Police) the IND Told him he didnt have to register as he was an EU Citizen, ping pong back and forth, couldn't get paid, couldn't open a bank account for 3 months was living on a mates couch for those 3 months as noone would rent him an apartment.

Then when he finally got it sorted he got back charged for 3 months of Health insurance, even though he already had International Health cover with Bupa.

I had to call an office in the City Hall in Duesseldorf, they only answered the phone between 10 and 2, with a 1 hour lunch break in between, thats if they answered at all. The person I was supposed to speak to was never there :rolleyes:

91011

g32 wrote: »

Another difference between Ireland and France: Ireland has an inefficient civil service (with no accountability) and whose workers cannot be fired from their job for misconduct or non-productivity (e.g. social welfare staff who take 4 weeks to organize 7 sheets of paper from someone who lost their job in the private sector).

g32 wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about. Compare the French to Irish civil service and I'll guarantee you the Irish one comes out the worst of all. I've lived in France so I should know!

I doubt very much if you lived in france or ever had to deal with the bureracracy there.

In France it is almost impossible to fire an employee of any company or state service.

6 years ago the red tape for companies was unbelievable especially if the company is headquartered outside France (USA) with a UK based director (me) and 2 french directors. - I doubt if it has changed in the slightest.

The USA parent company gave up after 2 years and closed the entire French operation down due to incredible problems trying to get rid of 4 employees who admitted theft and planning issues for buiulding an extension to the offices.

They are now based in the UK.

G32 - for your hatred of everything Irish, I'm surprised you still live her. - Can you say why you are here (this is not a jibe / insult, I just want to know if you have any positive things about Ireland). Its a free country and you are free to live / work anywhere in the EU. - Why haven't you moved to one of the rosey countries you talk so fondly about.

parsi

g32 wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about. Compare the French to Irish civil service and I'll guarantee you the Irish one comes out the worst of all. I've lived in France so I should know!

Ah bless.

I'm sure you think you're right.

mcwhirter

parsi wrote: »

The main dual carriageways / motorways are excellent. The average D road has a good surface but is otherwise the same as an Irish "main road" - windy, no margin etc.

Some of the town/ village roads can be poorly surfaced eg St Lunaire.

There is no comparison to irish and french backroads. I have been on both and irelands are far worse.
In fact they are possibly the worst in western europe.

keithclancy

mcwhirter wrote: »

There is no comparison to irish and french backroads. I have been on both and irelands are far worse.
In fact they are possibly the worst in western europe.

Ever been to Belgium ?


Typical Belgian "Tertiary" road

onemorechance

keithclancy wrote: »

Car Tax - 2 Litre Diesel


Ireland
526/year (Old system)

My 1975cc is E614 for 12 months.

parsi

mcwhirter wrote: »

There is no comparison to irish and french backroads. I have been on both and irelands are far worse.
In fact they are possibly the worst in western europe.

Try the back roads in Brittany & Normandy. Narrow, unlined, no catseyes or edge markers , deep ditches either side, poor surfaces.

galah

you really can't compare the cost for health insurance between Ireland and Germany like for like. In Germany, with the basic health insurance, the majority of your services are free - in Ireland, you still have to pay for your GP, for consultants, etc. You may get some money back through the healthnsurance, but you're still left out of pocket, never mind the fact that you have to pay upfront first.

You are encouraged to have a checkup at the gynacologist every 6 months, from a very young age. Here, it does not exist, and checkups are only for people 54 and up - with a smear test every 3 years. Absolut joke.


You pay a nominal fee for medication in Germany - here, you pay the full amount, capped at 120 Euros a month if you have a prescription cost card. If you need expensive medication regularly, this will leave you broke.

The service/quality of care is much higher in Germany, to the point where specialists have their own Xray machines/specialist equipment. Here, you have to go to A&E for an xray. In Germany, you will not wait 24 hours on a trolley with acute appendicits - can't say that for Ireland.

And don't get me started on dentists.

That's just my bit on the health insurance.

Ireland may be getting cheaper, but Germany is still way ahead for what you get for your money.

In terms of eating out - yes, you'll get a meal for a tenner, but it won't be fantastic. In Germany, you'll get a proper, decent meal for that amount.

Germany has disadvatages as well, obviously - the bureaucracy is legendary - compared to that, Ireland is paradise. But to call Ireland a 'bargain' over germany (can't speak for the Netherlands) is silly.

keithclancy

galah wrote: »

you really can't compare the cost for health insurance between Ireland and Germany like for like. In Germany, with the basic health insurance, the majority of your services are free - in Ireland, you still have to pay for your GP, for consultants, etc. You may get some money back through the healthnsurance, but you're still left out of pocket, never mind the fact that you have to pay upfront first.

You are encouraged to have a checkup at the gynacologist every 6 months, from a very young age. Here, it does not exist, and checkups are only for people 54 and up - with a smear test every 3 years. Absolut joke.


You pay a nominal fee for medication in Germany - here, you pay the full amount, capped at 120 Euros a month if you have a prescription cost card. If you need expensive medication regularly, this will leave you broke.

The service/quality of care is much higher in Germany, to the point where specialists have their own Xray machines/specialist equipment. Here, you have to go to A&E for an xray. In Germany, you will not wait 24 hours on a trolley with acute appendicits - can't say that for Ireland.

And don't get me started on dentists.

That's just my bit on the health insurance.

Ireland may be getting cheaper, but Germany is still way ahead for what you get for your money.

In terms of eating out - yes, you'll get a meal for a tenner, but it won't be fantastic. In Germany, you'll get a proper, decent meal for that amount.

Germany has disadvatages as well, obviously - the bureaucracy is legendary - compared to that, Ireland is paradise. But to call Ireland a 'bargain' over germany (can't speak for the Netherlands) is silly.

You have to pay for your Betriebskrankenkasse.

You have to pay 10 euros each time you go to a GP

Basic BKK doesn't fully cover dental.

http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/healthinsurance.html

The cost of government health insurance is currently approximately 15 % of your eligible gross salary to a maximum monthly limit of 3,750 Euros income.

Bear in mind thats just for the MINIMUM legal requirement as an employee.

15% of your Gross salary.

In Ireland they do not take 15% of your gross salary.

Ireland is a bargain in alot of respects, its why the country is going bust, its not sustainable (that and the banks screwed everyone over)

galah

no, you don't pay 10 Euros each time you see a GP - you pay 10 Euros each quarter. And that includes every other doctor's visit you may have in that quarter.

They may not cover everything when it comes to dental treatments, but certainly your filling etc are free - not the 65 Euro + you pay here. Or 600 Euros for a root canal.

keithclancy

galah wrote: »

no, you don't pay 10 Euros each time you see a GP - you pay 10 Euros each quarter. And that includes every other doctor's visit you may have in that quarter.

They may not cover everything when it comes to dental treatments, but certainly your filling etc are free - not the 65 Euro + you pay here. Or 600 Euros for a root canal.

I didn't pay anything for fillings in Ireland on my PRSI contributions, I did go to one dentist who was cheeky enough to try and get 40 euros on top but just went to a different one instead. I think they've stopped that scheme now though.

My orthodontic work was also free, had a brace for just over a year.

IMO its a ripoff, you have to pay it by law. I don't even live in the country and I still have to pay, plus your BKK isn't very useful if you live outside of Germany.

I'd much prefer to go and get Private Health insurance and pick the cover I want, not have a normalised system where I'm paying for everyone elses risk.

galah

but you do that here, too - through your PRSI and the health levy.

And then you still have the 'standards' issue. My GP in Germany had their own lab for basic tests - here, my smear tests are sent to AMERICA! Go figure...

I won't necessarily say that the German system is the best there is, but all in all, it is cheaper over there, when you compare it like for like.

What's a rip-off in Germany is the church tax. Undoubtedly. But you don't have to pay it if you don't want to (but won't get any of the church-related services (weddings, funerals, etc) either - depends on how comfortable you are with that). And the solidarity tax - 20 years later an they're still paying for the East, that's a joke.

One thing that's cheaper here though: Cat food. Not by much, but it's cheaper.

keithclancy

galah wrote: »

but you do that here, too - through your PRSI and the health levy.

And then you still have the 'standards' issue. My GP in Germany had their own lab for basic tests - here, my smear tests are sent to AMERICA! Go figure...

I won't necessarily say that the German system is the best there is, but all in all, it is cheaper over there, when you compare it like for like.

What's a rip-off in Germany is the church tax. Undoubtedly. But you don't have to pay it if you don't want to (but won't get any of the church-related services (weddings, funerals, etc) either - depends on how comfortable you are with that). And the solidarity tax - 20 years later an they're still paying for the East, that's a joke.

One thing that's cheaper here though: Cat food. Not by much, but it's cheaper.

The health levy is 2% in Ireland, how is that anything close to Germany
German BKK is 15% of your Gross Salary

How can you say its cheaper ?

Also to get out of the Church Tax you have to make a declaration in a local court, this costs more money.

galah

getting out of church tax must vary form county to county then - all I had to do was write a letter to the local priest, and they passed it on to the tax office. No costs involved (this is a while ago now though, may have changed since).

But you pay the health levy on top of the PRSI PLUS your private insurance contributions plus whatever you need to spend on doctors. Can't do math, but it must be close to the same - and then you still have the quality issue, and the fact that in Germany, it's 'all in'.

Of course, if you're never sick, you pay over the odds, but who's to say you won't need it at some point in your life?

SuperDude87

g32 wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about. Compare the French to Irish civil service and I'll guarantee you the Irish one comes out the worst of all. I've lived in France so I should know!

LOL

Some people are just so desperate to slag off Ireland. I have been living in France for two years and get safely say the civil service here is rubbish.

Example
Signing on the dole for the first time in Ireland very quick and signed on for the first time 1 week later. Showed P45 proof of adress etc. Job done!

In France I have been trying to sign on the dole for a month now. Have to go to the dole office fill in loads of froms and do interviews to get a rejection letter to send to the civil service saying I'm unemployed and can't be paid by the dole office but by the public service.:rolleyes: THEN have to send loads of paperwork (all my payslips, contracts, copy of medical insurance, letters from dole office etc) And THEN have to make a copy of everything twice because the poor civil servants are too busy to make a photocopy themselves. In total i have near 50 pages of stuff just to try and get the dole and that won't be for months!!!!:mad:

In France you ring up and never get told the same thing twice. Civil service may be crap back home as well, but not as bureaucratic as France!!!!;)

Apanachi

keithclancy wrote: »

T
German BKK is 15% of your Gross Salary

Soon to rise PLUS there will be "additional payments" added to that if the health insurers can't make ends meet

DubDani

keithclancy wrote: »

The health levy is 2% in Ireland, how is that anything close to Germany
German BKK is 15% of your Gross Salary

How can you say its cheaper ?

Also to get out of the Church Tax you have to make a declaration in a local court, this costs more money.

As an employee you only pay 7.5%, as your employer pays the other half. 15% is the combined amount.

I have Health Insurance in Ireland via VHI and recently had to go to the doctor, which cost me 70 euro. then he gave me a prescription which cost me another 115 euro to fill. Of the 185 euro VHI only repaid around 60 euro. The same in Germany would have cost me at maximum 15 Euro (10 Euro quarterly for the doc and maybe 5 to fill the prescription. If you have to go regularly or have a family these things add up very quickly.

There are loads of things in Ireland that work better then in Germany (for example everything Revenue related), but comparing German Health Insurance to the Irish System is like comparing the state of Anglo Irish to the State of the Deutsche Bank.

And regarding the church, it is quiet easy to lave the church (at least in Lower Saxony). I just had to go to the local church office, fill out a form, and then bring the form to the city hall. No costs involved at all.

g32

91011 wrote: »

G32 - for your hatred of everything Irish, I'm surprised you still live her. - Can you say why you are here (this is not a jibe / insult, I just want to know if you have any positive things about Ireland). Its a free country and you are free to live / work anywhere in the EU. - Why haven't you moved to one of the rosey countries you talk so fondly about.

You (and anyone else like you) don't like to hear the truth because it hurts. That's why you're calling me a hater of anything Irish.

In Ireland, Euro-pinching retailers have been under pressure from (1) northern Ireland and (2) People no longer willing to be fleeced by spending less; that's the reason for the reductions in certain areas.... and yes, Germany and the Netherlands IS a rip-off..... I would tell that to a German or a Dutch person.

Just imagine where we would be today had Lidl or Aldi not entered Ireland.... We would definitely be paying soooo much more. Why? - Us Irish still delude ourselves to living the dream of higher wages and take whatever we can without thinking of the consequences. Then, when disaster happens we just make small concessions. We don't learn from our mistakes.

91011

g32 wrote: »

You (and anyone else like you) don't like to hear the truth because it hurts. That's why you're calling me a hater of anything Irish.

In Ireland, Euro-pinching retailers have been under pressure from (1) northern Ireland and (2) People no longer willing to be fleeced by spending less; that's the reason for the reductions in certain areas.... and yes, Germany and the Netherlands IS a rip-off..... I would tell that to a German or a Dutch person.

Just imagine where we would be today had Lidl or Aldi not entered Ireland.... We would definitely be paying soooo much more. Why? - Us Irish still delude ourselves to living the dream of higher wages and take whatever we can without thinking of the consequences. Then, when disaster happens we just make small concessions. We don't learn from our mistakes.

again another post with zero back-up.

Fact - Branded goods are on average CHEAPER in the south than the North. Info from consumers association survey of branded goods & money supermarket.com cheapest UK supermarket.

Fact - UK food price inflation is at 5.4%. In Ireland it is DEflation of 4.3% in 12 months to August 2010.

Fact - On branded goods lidl & aldi are no different to the main supermarkets. On unbranded product they do provide excellent value, but they can do this by stripping out many costs and offering a very limited range of products. - Their entering of the market did very little to reduce prices - only when there was a glaring gap between north & south did the supermarkets take action. I also did much of my shopping in NI up to the middle of last year but as there is virtually no difference I do none of my shopping in the north despite being up in Ballycastle every 2 weeks.


I'm not saying you're a hater of everything Irish - you just have such a negative view, yet you live here, possibly claim benefits such as children's allowances, student grants or jobseekers allowances - all SUBSTANTIALLY above the 3 rd world payments in the UK system. - Inthe UK, you get about £65 dole - christ, you can't have dignity at that level! - And old age pension at £84 a week after working for 45+ years is miserly. - Give me Ireland over UK anyday even in the current situation

g32

91011 wrote: »

again another post with zero back-up.

Fact - Branded goods are on average CHEAPER in the south than the North. Info from consumers association survey of branded goods & money supermarket.com cheapest UK supermarket.

Fact - UK food price inflation is at 5.4%. In Ireland it is DEflation of 4.3% in 12 months to August 2010.

Fact - On branded goods lidl & aldi are no different to the main supermarkets. On unbranded product they do provide excellent value, but they can do this by stripping out many costs and offering a very limited range of products. - Their entering of the market did very little to reduce prices - only when there was a glaring gap between north & south did the supermarkets take action. I also did much of my shopping in NI up to the middle of last year but as there is virtually no difference I do none of my shopping in the north despite being up in Ballycastle every 2 weeks.


I'm not saying you're a hater of everything Irish - you just have such a negative view, yet you live here, possibly claim benefits such as children's allowances, student grants or jobseekers allowances - all SUBSTANTIALLY above the 3 rd world payments in the UK system. - Inthe UK, you get about £65 dole - christ, you can't have dignity at that level! - And old age pension at £84 a week after working for 45+ years is miserly. - Give me Ireland over UK anyday even in the current situation

I have to stop you there, Supermarkets were forced to take action because they were loosing customers. Lidl/Aldi's entry increased competition so of course it helped put pressure on Dunnes and Tesco. The real silver bullet has yet to come, when WalMart enters Ireland.

I don't draw any benefits here, my relative does and he told me all about the staff at his local Social Welfare Office. They were so bad to him even though they mistakenly put him on the wrong scheme!! If that happened in France, there would be an investigation and the worker would be suspended for this. In Ireland, they basically get away with murder. I agree, the benefits are too high.

As for the majority of our civil service; they are inept, useless, inefficient, and a waste of space. So many flip-up's, mistakes and everything else. I hope Michael O'Leary becomes Taoiseach soon and he'll show some of them the door. Then they will work.

SuperDude87

g32 wrote: »

If that happened in France, there would be an investigation and the worker would be suspended for this.

Are you serious? Civil servants in France are among the most contempt that there is. When I applied for the dole in Ireland everyone was nice and helpful compared to the French who were nothing but rude and condescending.

Suspended I'd doubt it, but they are safe in the knowledge that they'd really have to majorly screw up (talking nearly commit fraud on a huge scale) before you can ever begin to suspend/fire them. If not they are just moved around.

I'm sorry but get this idea that French civil servants being the bee's knees out of your head because it really isn't the case...

PS I'm not saying Irish civil servants are much better but stuff like this happens everywhere it isn't a problem reserved to Ireland.:)

gurramok

You can't compare car ownership in Holland to Ireland. Holland has 16million people compared to 4 million here.
The reason for high car ownership costs in Holland are to stop millions of cars roaming a country just over half the size of Ireland.

Same analogy for property. High population density results in high property costs in Holland. Unlike us who have one of the lowest population densities.

Dutch hotels are notoriously expensive near any major city due to demand. Irish hotels can be cheaper for example in Dublin but they are not cheap in Kilkenny!

And yes, Holland consumer prices are indeed high for alot of items.

Maybe you should of compared Finland to us instead of Holland