Shower Fault

JOHNPT

Has anbody came across problems with the Triton T90xr pumped shower. Basically the tenants are noticing everytime they use the shower they are getting electric shocks from the taps in the bathroom. I checked the shower and there dosent seem to be any leaks or loose connections. Has anybody came across a similar problem?

Thanks in advance for any advice

M cebee

you should tell them to get the installation checked by a competent electrician

if you don't know what you're doing

meercat

agree with m cebee
needs to be checked urgently
check earthing and bonding
also check main neutral connections

again to reiterate its important to sort urgently

Bruthal

JOHNPT wrote: »

Has anbody came across problems with the Triton T90xr pumped shower. Basically the tenants are noticing everytime they use the shower they are getting electric shocks from the taps in the bathroom. I checked the shower and there dosent seem to be any leaks or loose connections. Has anybody came across a similar problem?

Thanks in advance for any advice

Yea i would`t use that again until the shower installation itslef is checked, along with earthing to the shower, and everything else a competent electrician will check.

meercat

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055888444
johnpt
is this a continuation of this previous problem?
if so, get complete installation checked over by competent electrician

M cebee

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yea i would`t use that again until the shower installation itslef is checked, along with earthing to the shower, and everything else a competent electrician will check.

i meant to say registered electrician instead of competent:pac:

Bruthal

I seen that shower tripping the socket RCD before like meercat has linked to, the sockets had little or no load on them and a decorator had put the nail holding ceiling coving up into the socket drop shorting the neutral to earth of socket circuit, so the shower neutral current went through its own RCD to main neutral bar, but a tiny fraction of it then went up the neutral to the socket RCD to take the path to the point where the neutral was shorted to the earth and so tripped the socket RCD. A small table lamp would`t trip the socket RCD if plugged into different circuit than the nailed one in that case but the kettle did. Seen similar in another house also, both were fed by the old overhead cables so the neutral probably was`t up to modern loads, It does`t seem to happen in houses fed from mini-pillars with good size cables. It is more likely if the installation is not neutralised as well, as then there is more chance of a PD between the earth rod/earth bar, and the neutral bar

Anyway besides all that, the house needs a good checking of the electrical setup.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

i meant to say registered electrician instead of competent:pac:

Ha ha which is better.

JOHNPT

Thanks for replies. No meercat its not a continuation of that problem - I found the fault that time it was the immersion which was faulty but only tripped ELCB when shower turned on. I know how to do an insualtion resistance test of cables coming to shower but not sure how to test the shower itself. Any help is appreciated.

Bruthal

JOHNPT wrote: »

Thanks for replies. No meercat its not a continuation of that problem - I found the fault that time it was the immersion which was faulty but only tripped ELCB when shower turned on. I know how to do an insualtion resistance test of cables coming to shower but not sure how to test the shower itself. Any help is appreciated.

But what was the nature of the fault on the immersion, for the shower to trip the socket/immersion RCD would usually involve a neutral earth short somewhere within the sockets/immersion circuits, and if that was the fault on the immersion then the immersion on its own should of immediately tripped the RCD through which the immersion was fed anytime it was switched on.

JOHNPT

The tenants never used the immersion they only used the electric shower so never noticed it was faulty. When I disconnected the immersion the problem was resolved.

Bruthal

JOHNPT wrote: »

The tenants never used the immersion they only used the electric shower so never noticed it was faulty. When I disconnected the immersion the problem was resolved.

It was likely a neutral to earth short on the immersion so that was causing the Immersion/sockets RCD to trip when the shower was put on.

When this happens where a shower in this case is causing an RCD to trip which is not the RCD associated with the shower, it can be hard to find the problem, but it is usually a neutral earth short within the circuits controlled by the RCD that is tripping it. Just the neutral current from the shower through its own RCD onto main neutral bar and a small fraction of this current goes from the main neutral bar through the immersion/sockets RCD neutral side and to the point of the neutral earth fault and down the earth thus tripping the immersion/sockets RCD. Out of 35amps from shower, less than 1/1000th of this current only needs to divert to the neutral earth short to trip the sockets RCD so it can and does happen.

It is more likely on a non neutralised installation for the above to happen.

I had similar thing before, i had the main switch off and still the RCD was tripping, caused by neutral connected to the earth in a socket, and a tiny amount of neutral current was coming into house to the neutral earth short through the sockets RCD and tripping it. I was fitting new DB where the old one had no RCD.

The shocks from the taps while the shower is running is a sign of a bad problem within the installation. Is it a house in an estate, a single isolated house?

JOHNPT

Thanks for your explanation.
Its in a fairly new housing estate. The fuseboard looks 100%. It only happens when shower is been used. Do you think it is a problem with shower or a problem with installation. I presumed it would be shower maybe faulty motor but unsure how to test a shower is working perfectly?

Bruthal

JOHNPT wrote: »

Thanks for your explanation.
Its in a fairly new housing estate. The fuseboard looks 100%. It only happens when shower is been used. Do you think it is a problem with shower or a problem with installation. I presumed it would be shower maybe faulty motor but unsure how to test a shower is working perfectly?

Its hard to say an MCB board is 100% by the look of it though, were the tennants actually in the shower when they noticed this? A test i would do myself is a voltage test between the taps and the earth terminal of the shower with the shower both on, and off, the shower head would have to be in a position so as not to be a danger of spraying into the open shower unit. Maybe the shower head off and the water pipe hanging down into bath.

The MCB board itself would need to be thoroughly checked as well, and earth bonding onto bath tap pipes if they are copper. And see is the neutralising connection ok from ESB meter main fuse to MCB board earth bar.

And the shower earth itself is vital to be checked its done propperly, as without an earth a fault in the shower Live to earth might not trip the shower RCD, but could render the shower unit metal live, and standng in a shower in that condition would`t be recommended and could cause the problem your having.

All the above needs electrician to test, a competent one as M cebee would say, or was it a registered one:rolleyes:

meercat

Another test I would do is
turn main switch off
disconnect main neutral from consumer unit
check for voltage between main neutral and earth busbar
had a similar problem long while back and it turned out to be a burnt out neutral in house next door and tracked back through earth.
Remember to isolate power. Safety first

Bruthal

meercat wrote: »

Another test I would do is
turn main switch off
disconnect main neutral from consumer unit
check for voltage between main neutral and earth busbar
had a similar problem long while back and it turned out to be a burnt out neutral in house next door and tracked back through earth.
Remember to isolate power. Safety first

Yes a good test there, there are a fair number of things to be checked.

JOHNPT

Thanks for replies.
Tenants are living in house about a year and this only started happening a month ago. The problem seems to be intermitent. I called to house and turned on shower and got no shocks from either taps which are both bonded. However they said it dosent always happen about 50% of time. They got a new carpet lately so I suspected maybe static electricity at first. I asked them not to use shower for 2 wks and turn off shower isolator - they used immersion to heat water and got no shocks. However when they started using shower again they started getting shocks.

There is 230 volts between live and earth and live and neutral at shower.

I will try test Meercat suggested between neutral and earth but if this was a problem would fault current from neighbouring house not trip ELCB in board?

Thanks

Bruthal

JOHNPT wrote: »

Thanks for replies.
Tenants are living in house about a year and this only started happening a month ago. The problem seems to be intermitent. I called to house and turned on shower and got no shocks from either taps which are both bonded. However they said it dosent always happen about 50% of time. They got a new carpet lately so I suspected maybe static electricity at first. I asked them not to use shower for 2 wks and turn off shower isolator - they used immersion to heat water and got no shocks. However when they started using shower again they started getting shocks.

There is 230 volts between live and earth and live and neutral at shower.

I will try test Meercat suggested between neutral and earth but if this was a problem would fault current from neighbouring house not trip ELCB in board?

Thanks

It probably would`t, except if you yourself had a neutral earth fault on a circuit controlled by your RCD(s).

Do a voltage test from the shower L to taps, N to taps and E to taps.
Readings should be 230v, 0v, 0v. The shower should be on and heating the water to duplicate the conditions of someone in the shower.

Sometimes with the hose with shower head removed will cause the heating elements to go off as water pressure falls so turn the temp dial to coldest for high flow rate. If you manage it with shower head still on hose then heat will be on, its just safer with head off and hose into bath, you need the water heating to do a proper test.

M cebee

a 'handyman' is not able to diagnose these problems safely over the internet with a voltage tester:mad:

the fuseboard looks 100% -what the hell does that mean??

they need a competent sparkie for this job

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

a 'handyman' is not able to diagnose these problems safely over the internet with a voltage tester:mad:

the fuseboard looks 100% -what the hell does that mean??

they need a competent sparkie for this job

Yea your right,

Although a handyman is all i am:eek:

M cebee

help another sparkie sure,

but helping handymen with these dangerous bathroom faults:mad:


prob a dodgy landlord looking for a cheap repair and putting the tenants at risk

JOHNPT

Who said I am a handyman - I am a newly qualified electrician.
Fuseboard looks 100% - Means on initial visual inspection everything seems ok - correct fuses, correct ELCB rating, wiring looks neat and tidy so quality of work looks good. I am on this thread to learn - I dont do unsafe work - if i did i wouldnt bother asking questions.

M cebee

JOHNPT wrote: »

Who said I am a handyman - I am a newly qualified electrician.
Fuseboard looks 100% - Means on initial visual inspection everything seems ok - correct fuses, correct ELCB rating, wiring looks neat and tidy so quality of work looks good. I am on this thread to learn - I dont do unsafe work - if i did i wouldnt bother asking questions.

good:D


i've answered many of your questions in the past-i assumed you were a handyman

you bought the megger?

have you other test meters for this job?

JOHNPT

I know you have and appreciate it. There is only so much you learn as an apprentice - if your pulling wires in houses everyday. I have a good quality multimeter and ampmeter. Still havent bought a megger - if somebody gives me a recommendation of a basic one which is not too expensive I would buy it.

M cebee

you were buying a megger a year ago

i bought a spare one on adverts for 40-i'm broke like a lot of sparkies:rolleyes:

one before that cost me a 100 or so off cpc

JOHNPT

I was talking about buying one a year ago. If anybody has a megger for sale or knows where I can buy one can you pm me. Thanks