Why is AH so misogynistic?

southsiderosie

EMF2010 wrote: »

I don't think every guy on AH is a mysoginist. I don't think it is rampant on the forum either but what I do think is that it is NOT taken as seriously as other 'infractions' and is largely overlooked when it does happen.

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

The point is that you wouldn't be able to get away with that level of abuse if they belonged to any other social group. The Mods have responded by saying there were no posts reported. I didn't read the thread til after this one started. If I had read it at the time I would have reported some posts. What we see on that thread is an extreme manifestation of what slides by every day. I'm not calling for censorship. We need space for the un-PC. But it saddens me that a lot of people thanked a lot of pretty dodgy stuff on that thread.

I think this is the big problem with AH. I'm not afraid to argue with people or report posts, but it's become pretty obvious to me that there are different standards for comments on women than there are for other groups. I post a lot on boards about immigration and there are infractions right and left on those threads, but last year I gave up posting on gender threads in AH because the comments were so out of control. It was also very disheartening to see mods thanking posts that seemed quite sexist and personal - why would you report a poster who a moderator agreed with?

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68030518#post68030518

Thread in Feedback about this if anyone's interested.

I don't see the need to go to Feedback with this. I/we are quiet happy to let this thread run its course. We will also be modding it like any other thread so any smart ass trolling will be dealth with accordingly.

On the topic in hand. I do feel that there is a small element of a good old boys club here. I think this is mainly due to the fact that men seem to out number the women. Of course you will get a degree of sexism as you would in any male dominated area but its certainly not the norm on here and if i thought it was then i'd be the first to step down.

I'm sorry that some posters feel the way they do but i don't want them to think we don't see this as a serious issue because i can assure you that we do.

That being said there are situations where things can slip under the radar, and this can happen on all threads and topics. Personally i find the report post feature very helpful. I try and read as much as i can but i do miss things for time to time. If and when we come across sexism towards women and men, it will be dealth with asap.

AnnyHallsal

Thanks, Super-Rush. I just hope the voices of people like southsiderosie are respected, and not told there's no reason they shouldn't felt like that. They felt as they did for a reason. AH is anarchic and that's a good thing but it has drawn boundaries for other issues. It should be made clear where the boundaries lie with regard to this. Cos some of the posts definitely transgress "don't be a dick" and go uncommented, for whatever reason.

And that's me done :eek:

liah

Like I mentioned to you in the other thread, it was suggested to me to post in feedback as it was thought it may be more appropriate there to avoid the typical AH banter. I already said that if you felt it shouldn't be there, feel free to move it or merge it with this thread, but personally I wouldn't feel good about bringing it into AH.

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

Like I mentioned to you in the other thread, it was suggested to me to post in feedback as it was thought it may be more appropriate there to avoid the typical AH banter. I already said that if you felt it shouldn't be there, feel free to move it or merge it with this thread, but personally I wouldn't feel good about bringing it into AH.

Can i ask why Liah?

liah

super-rush wrote: »

Can i ask why Liah?

Was the first initial rush of comments not indication enough in regards to why I may not feel comfortable discussing something that impacts me?

It won't get taken seriously. The spate of threads involving direct snide references to this thread are everywhere clearly demonstrating the general attitude towards our issue is one of disrespect.

The problem I didn't forsee is that it met the same reception in feedback. I'd assumed feedback would be a more controlled environment for legitimate discussion and not a haven for trolls and baiters.

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

Was the first initial rush of comments not indication enough in regards to why I may not feel comfortable discussing something that impacts me?

It won't get taken seriously. The spate of threads involving direct snide references to this thread are everywhere clearly demonstrating the general attitude towards our issue is one of disrespect.

The problem I didn't forsee is that it met the same reception in feedback. I'd assumed feedback would be a more controlled environment for legitimate discussion and not a haven for trolls and baiters.

Like i said in FB give us a chance and we'll deal with the crap.

Piste

When women get vexed by the mysogynistic comments (however harmless) on AH, it sometimes confuses other posters. They see it as just a bit of banter and think the women are over-sensitive and overreacting, thus further feeding into the anti-woman sentiment and the idea that women can't take a joke.

What they don't seem to realise is, while many comments are light hearted and harmless, hearing them over and over and over again gets incredibly tiring and starts to annoy some people. So you might make a "back in the kitchen!" joke and think you're the bee's knees because it's the first time you've posted it. However the woman you say it to might have heard it several times that day, along with other "harmless" throwaway comments. They build up and start to get on people's nerves. It's not nice having people write off your indignation or anger at something as PMT or asking "is it that time of the month?". The patronising comments might be funny to you, but when you get a few of them in each thread, across a number of forums, it starts to feel a bit like mysogyny.

So next time you're about to make an off-the-cuff remark, think how annoying it would be for someone to see yet ANOTHER poster who thinks they're funny coming out with another cliché aimed against them.

liah

Men: pick out one thing about yourself that you have no control over that you've been made fun of for in the past. Anything.

Now imagine hearing it every single day, seeing it everywhere multiple times a day. The exact same insults, over and over and over, from a large percentage of the population.

For your entire life.

Might have an idea of why it bothers us.

strobe

liah wrote: »

Men: pick out one thing about yourself that you have no control over that you've been made fun of for in the past. Anything.

Now imagine hearing it every single day, seeing it everywhere multiple times a day. The exact same insults, over and over and over, from a large percentage of the population.

For your entire life.

Might have an idea of why it bothers us.

To be honest Liah there is something about myself that is made fun of in AH (and in real life) with about as much frequency as some posters here make fun of women. Sometimes (but very rarely) it is in jest but more frequently, far more frequently than with the issue being dealt with in this thread it is meant in a very sneering, condescending and hurtful way. It is far more accepted on here and in real life than misogyny or sexism is. I don't have a large proportion of people on here that have to deal with the same thing as me to "have my back" either, like female posters do in this.

So I do understand your point, and Piste's. But this is After Hours, and it's just that kind of place (occasionally great craic but frequently like a big Daily Mail readers convention) and some people are just assholes. I'm sure you've seen the "Normal person + anonymity + audience = Asshole" thing before. So I just ignore the assholes to be honest. If someone personally insults me or if something is completely over the top I might report them. But to try and have the general air of assholeness that exists here from some people on the topic erased would be pointless. So I just don't allow myself to be baited.

Jazzy

liah wrote: »

Men: pick out one thing about yourself that you have no control over that you've been made fun of for in the past. Anything.

Now imagine hearing it every single day, seeing it everywhere multiple times a day. The exact same insults, over and over and over, from a large percentage of the population.

For your entire life.

Might have an idea of why it bothers us.

who the hell are you hanging around with??? i hang around with a ton of girls and ive never ever ever heard them abused with sexism before. actually, im gonna ask a mate now on facebook chat when the last time she recieved sexist abuse.

nope. she cant remember. she says "maybe when I was back in school".
personally - i just really think you dont like smart arse comments. yeah fine, i can understand why, but at the same time they are free to make those smart arse comments... know why? cos they're smart arses!!! there are smart arses everywhere, theres sh1tty ads everywhere, sh1tty stereotyping everywhere.. but amazingly, people deal with it. i bitch about sh1t like that all the time but at the end of the day, i deal with it. if you are having problems dealing with it, then going on a little self righteous crusade is only going to increase the original problem you have - which is the way you deal with it

liah

Jazzy wrote: »

who the hell are you hanging around with??? i hang around with a ton of girls and ive never ever ever heard them abused with sexism before. actually, im gonna ask a mate now on facebook chat when the last time she recieved sexist abuse.

nope. she cant remember. she says "maybe when I was back in school".
personally - i just really think you dont like smart arse comments. yeah fine, i can understand why, but at the same time they are free to make those smart arse comments... know why? cos they're smart arses!!! there are smart arses everywhere, theres sh1tty ads everywhere, sh1tty stereotyping everywhere.. but amazingly, people deal with it. i bitch about sh1t like that all the time but at the end of the day, i deal with it. if you are having problems dealing with it, then going on a little self righteous crusade is only going to increase the original problem you have - which is the way you deal with it

I'm talking about posters in AH, not anyone or anything outside of it. Don't make assumptions. Have you actually properly read the thread or are you just responding to a couple posts?

I'm tired of repeating myself, I'm going to bed. Night.

Jazzy

liah wrote: »

I'm talking about posters in AH, not anyone or anything outside of it. Don't make assumptions. Have you actually properly read the thread or are you just responding to a couple posts?

I'm tired of repeating myself, I'm going to bed. Night.

im sorry, but they are posters in AH. AH is a reknown cesspit of uninformed people trying to get noticed in whatever way possible. there are very very few actual opinions and posts worth listening to on every thread thats posted, including this one. do you think you are going to change this? do you think its possible to change this? your quest to stop morons posting here will be as fruitless as trying to get the earth to stop turning, if you cant deal with that, then categorically - it is you who are the one with the problem

liah

Jazzy wrote: »

im sorry, but they are posters in AH. AH is a reknown cesspit of uninformed people trying to get noticed in whatever way possible. there are very very few actual opinions and posts worth listening to on every thread thats posted, including this one. do you think you are going to change this? do you think its possible to change this? your quest to stop morons posting here will be as fruitless as trying to get the earth to stop turning, if you cant deal with that, then categorically - it is you who are the one with the problem

...

not trying to stop jokes

trying to stop people using misogyny to spew attacks

just trying to get sexism taken EQUALLY as seriously as other topics of contention

etc

etc

etc

I feel like a goddamn broken record

Prof.Badass

Do we want to become the "boring cup of tea with granny and the parish priest discussion group"?

The truely great thing about this place is that people can say things openly to everyone that they might have only said to a select group irl.

Guys are gonna talk about **** and girls being either sluts or prudes and make jokes like "you can beat your wife but you can't beat a blowjob :rolleyes:", but you have to accept this sort of talk is commonplace among men irl. If you ban it from AH it's like sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalalala".
It may be off AH, and you may no longer be offended, but you do realise it's still going on, right?
Whereas if you allow it and challenge it when it's overly sexist you might just make men more understanding and change things for the better in society.

I think women should also feel free to post the sort of stuff here that they wouldn't say in front of men irl (and don't lie, I know there's plenty ). This sort of openness can only lead to good things imo.

At the end of the day, all humour involves taking away from someone/something (be they real, fictional or symbolic). It's just a sad fact of our evolution that we derive pleasure from such things.
However, I don't think there's anything wrong with indulging in some humour now and again as long as people don't take it too far and everyone coming here realises that the vast majority of posters don't really mean what they say (they're just after the endorphin buzz ).


@Piste, if the comments are directed specifically at you personally, then surely it would fit under personal abuse?

liah wrote: »

Men: pick out one thing about yourself that you have no control over that you've been made fun of for in the past. Anything.

Now imagine hearing it every single day, seeing it everywhere multiple times a day. The exact same insults, over and over and over, from a large percentage of the population.

For your entire life.

Might have an idea of why it bothers us.

Not to come across as insensitive, but I can honestly say that if it wasn't directed at me personally (but rather a group i belonged to) then i'd learn to live with it.

If you guys are only talking about personally directed comments then i can totally see where you're coming from.
However, most of the jokes referencing this thread weren't directed at any particular poster. An ample opportunity for jokes was created and that opportunity was seized.
That sort of "moment of win" is exactly why people take part in light-hearted discussion groups. I can understand how you might have felt the jokes belittling your argument, but I don't think many of those posters meant anything malicious by it.

Piste

Prof.Badass wrote: »

@Piste, if the comments are directed specifically at you personally, then surely it would fit under personal abuse?

Nah, the stuff I'm talking about isn't abusive, just tiresome. It's the kind of stuff I'd roll my eyes in exasperation at, but I wouldn't reply to. I'm not even looking for such comments to be banned, just explaining why it annoys some people, and asking that the people who make the comments at every opportunity and think they're hilarious to tone it down a bit.

Jazzy

liah wrote: »

...

not trying to stop jokes

trying to stop people using misogyny to spew attacks

just trying to get sexism taken EQUALLY as seriously as other topics of contention

etc

etc

etc

I feel like a goddamn broken record

maybe thats because your point actually doesnt really have that much depth. if its that obvious a problem then the solution is obvious too. people will always use things like misogyny to spew attacks, and as I have just said, its up to you on how you deal with it. but notice the way I was able to that without sarcastically going "etc." ? further proof that it is YOU who are the one that doesnt know how to deal with it because your trying to deal with it by changing the nature of an idiot. it cant be done, so you get over it.. you dont start a quest to get idiots to not be idiots.. and on this website, idiots are allowed to sign up, hit post reply and waffle about whatever as long as it is within the rules. is sexism on AH that big of a problem? its not as big a problem as the casual abuse and casual trolling.... its just the one specific problem that annoys you most so you have made a big song and dance about it.

recylingbin

liah wrote: »

...

not trying to stop jokes

trying to stop people using misogyny to spew attacks

just trying to get sexism taken EQUALLY as seriously as other topics of contention

etc

etc

etc

I feel like a goddamn broken record

Typical woman.

southsiderosie

Jazzy wrote: »

maybe thats because your point actually doesnt really have that much depth. if its that obvious a problem then the solution is obvious too. people will always use things like misogyny to spew attacks, and as I have just said, its up to you on how you deal with it. but notice the way I was able to that without sarcastically going "etc." ? further proof that it is YOU who are the one that doesnt know how to deal with it because your trying to deal with it by changing the nature of an idiot. it cant be done, so you get over it.. you dont start a quest to get idiots to not be idiots.. and on this website, idiots are allowed to sign up, hit post reply and waffle about whatever as long as it is within the rules. is sexism on AH that big of a problem? its not as big a problem as the casual abuse and casual trolling.... its just the one specific problem that annoys you most so you have made a big song and dance about it.

But here's the thing: there are very strict rules about racist and xenophobic posts, slightly less strict rules about Roma/Travellers, and seemingly few to no rules when it comes to women. If AH allowed people to say whatever they wanted about whatever group, then the sexism would still be irksome, but at least the forum would be consistent.

Nobody is saying that jokes, smart, dumb or otherwise, are every going to disappear from AH, nor should they. For better or for worse we will always hear about bad women drivers, swan-eating Polish men and their hot wimmenz, kid-****ing priests, and YOURE MA in this forum. But the condescending, hostile and often vile remarks about women - and about specific women posters in particular - need to go, especially since they would never be tolerated if they were targeted at any of the aforementioned groups.

Jazzy

southsiderosie wrote: »

But here's the thing: there are very strict rules about racist and xenophobic posts, slightly less strict rules about Roma/Travellers, and seemingly few to no rules when it comes to women. If AH allowed people to say whatever they wanted about whatever group, then the sexism would still be irksome, but at least the forum would be consistent.

Nobody is saying that jokes, smart, dumb or otherwise, are every going to disappear from AH, nor should they. For better or for worse we will always hear about bad women drivers, swan-eating Polish men and their hot wimmenz, kid-****ing priests, and YOURE MA in this forum. But the condescending, hostile and often vile remarks about women - and about specific women posters in particular - need to go, especially since they would never be tolerated if they were targeted at any of the aforementioned groups.

but they arent tolerated?

southsiderosie

Jazzy wrote: »

but they arent tolerated?

Well, to the women who are at least willing to voice their opinion on it here, they are tolerated in ways that they are not for other groups.

recylingbin

I propose that we reduce the english language to it's bare bones, removing any words that could cause offence to anyone and introducing a few more words which mean 'well done' and 'excellent'.

That way no one will ever be hurt again.

Failing that we could brainwash everyone into thinking the same thing. Things would be a little boring, but at least no one would suffer the slings and arrows of another's tongue.

fonecrusher1

You know what, the more i think about this the more it annoys me.

Pretty much everywhere in boards with the exception of The cuckoos nest & The Thunderdome are fairly well moderated. You step out of line, you get a warning/infraction/ban.
Theres an awareness that you can't really post anything off topic or silly or a bit cheeky. And yes rules need to be in place for say the Motors section, you can't have someone posting a thread about non motoring related issues or acting a bit of a fool. You go there to talk about cars. End of story

After Hours is the equivalent of heading off down the pub for a bit of a laugh, talk sh!te for a while, nothing too serious. What im seeing here is an attack on the easy going nature of AH, the one place the rules are not so strictly adhered to.

Sometimes i see someone posting a remark i don't like in AH, do i want AH to be moderated more heavily for it? No, of course not. I'l respond with my own comment or report it. Whats the problem??? If you see something you find insulting, wade in with your own opinion.

Don't wreck AH. I personally wouldn't bother coming back here if i see a whole host of new rules & warnings regarding what is & is not acceptable & everyone walking around on eggshells, reading & re-reading their posts before they submit them, praying nobody takes offence.

Leave AH alone.

tbh

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Pretty much everywhere in boards with the exception of The cuckoos nest & The Thunderdome are fairly well moderated.

*adds fonecrusher1 to "the list"*

the_syco

I read... 8 posts. All b|tching about sexism. In AH. Seriously, what the feck?

It's AH. You want discussion, goto one of the other forums. You want lolz, you come here.

Sisko

Jaysus its that time of the month in AH it would seem.




I'm kidding^

Personally , except that comment just there, I've never made any of these 'sexist jokes' that indeed are everywhere in AH and it would seem has been really tearing away at a lot of the female posters on here.

A lot of them, just like the one above are merely introduced after a serious post or discussion to get that shock laugh moment or whatever. I'll admit I'll often laugh at such a post but never does it actually effect my view of what the female poster may have been saying or the point they've made. In fact I find it a little insulting , or maybe , disappointing that some may label anyone that finds such a joke amusing to hate women or view them as unequals.

I don't think they come from the deep malice that some of the ladies on here seem to think they do, really, they come from the same place ginger jokes do. (I'm not a ginger )

In fact I'd even put it out there that gingers get it far worse as a lot of gingers would have grown up getting bullied over their red hair only to have to put up with south park jokes and harmless ginger jibes on an Irish internet forum. Sure they're harmless and they'd likely see them as such but still bring up painful memories.

But nobody actually really thinks gingers are souless monsters and no one really thinks women should 'go back to the kitchen' either.

Can you picture someone trying to bring in such backwards laws into this country, similar to that in the middle east 'women can't leave the house without a man, women are not allowed to drive or vote' etc etc do you think that same bloke who made those jokes about women drivers will rejoice? He'll be up in arms.

I would say, just make jokes back at the guys but I suppose it is hard when so outnumbered. But I do think some of the ladies on here are perceiving a lot more malice then there really is.

Lets take the over posted but amusing 'women know your place' videos. Its taking the piss out of the men in those videos just as much if not more so then the women. The extremely backward views they have.


& then we have the Anti Irish Women threads, these come from AH posters personal experiences but usually end up filled with stupid generalizations. There is some truth in there though. And we've even had Anti Irish Men threads crop up as a response, again same story regarding generalizations but interestingly also filled with a lot of on the ball remarks that make an interesting read with coupled with the 'irish women' threads.

I think a lot of this is Irish society and I blame a lot of it on single sex schools.


But as for the sexism , this is the internet and people speak a lot more crassly I think a lot of it really needs to be taken with some salt , these people don't actually hate women.

Also there is the fact that 'there are no women on the internet' so men talk as they would amongst themselves when theres no women are around

mariaalice

The reasons are

Its the internet ...boards is fairly anonymous ( not totally anonymous )

Some people are dumb.

But also there are a few men ( very very few ) who who have a deep resentment of woman and i would say a a few of them aren't fully aware of the resentment they feel, so it come out in what they think are jokes and witty replies to threads on AH.

before i get eating alive.. i know there are woman who resent and dislike men but the difference is mens dislike and resentment of women seems to be a lot more aggressive.

Logical Fallacy

In all fairness, given the population split of AH, which seems to be even more male dominated that the board itself...it's not that out of whack.

Plenty of cheeky posts from female posters about blokes knocking around the place, it's just that when you consider the higher percentage of blokes making cheeky posts about females it looks way out of whack. If you boil it down to respective percentage based on the ratio of male to female...we could maybe have a proper look at things.

As others already stated, it's AH, the general gist and point thereof being humour and oftentimes some friendly jibes. Plenty of forums around for discussing serious issues without the jokes including one dedicated to womans issues that demands serious posting.

There will be a millions jokes made on AH about girls, boys, drugs, beer, the government, taxi drivers, ****, sexing, work, football, politics etc etc etc. I think it's a fairly pointless task to "dig deeper" and assume the poeople making them have any issues beyond the fact that they might be looking for a cheap giggle.

Wibbs

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Sometimes i see someone posting a remark i don't like in AH, do i want AH to be moderated more heavily for it? No, of course not. I'l respond with my own comment or report it. Whats the problem??? If you see something you find insulting, wade in with your own opinion.

Or report it. When someone posts say a racist remark a slew of reported posts kick off. The mods see it and act on it. It makes their lives easier and lets them gauge the mood of the community.

I'm not gonna go all men are from mars women are from venus here, but I have noted over the years that very generally speaking women argue a point slightly differently. Less aggressively, or it comes across like that. They're also more likely to back out of a debate if they feel they're being attacked.

On this site? IMHO they report posts less too. A feeling of "I don't want to cause trouble". It's not "trouble" and it gets taken on its own merit and helps the mods out. In AH that goes quadruple with the traffic here. If anyone feels there is an issue in any forum, but doesnt report and bring it to the attention of the mods, then they really can't come along later and take issue. You're one of the community and part of that is helping said community.

Don't wreck AH. I personally wouldn't bother coming back here if i see a whole host of new rules & warnings regarding what is & is not acceptable & everyone walking around on eggshells, reading & re-reading their posts before they submit them, praying nobody takes offence.

I'd agree with this too. No point throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Short answer, report posts, that and the reaction of the mods to that should give us a middle ground.

Pookah

Mrmoe wrote: »

Who said anything about it being tolerated? Those posts will never be tolerated. Those posts should be reported and action will then be taken. No sane level headed person would argue that some posts are misogynistic, racist, sexist and abusive but do not label everything else as being that way. I hate those type of posts as they usually detract from a thread and they are rarely funny.

Fair enough. I picked you up wrong.