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AH & Perceived Sexism
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maybe it's cos we grew up with Robocop movies?
i think everyone should just give up, let the mods convene, wait for the white smoke and see how we get on from here on in.0 -
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OutlawPete wrote: »It was not used as a means to "discredit" you.
When I see your name, two threads spring to mind: Woman Rapes Ten Men & Steak and Blowjob Day.
Steak & Blowjob Day? Why?
OutlawPete wrote: »Your thread was used as an example to show that there is both sexism towards men and women in After Hours and that is far from a misogynist free for all, which was the overall implication.
Grand.OutlawPete wrote: »You may feel that it is irrelevant to this thread that men are also on the receiving end of sexist remarks and comments daily also, but it is very relevant.
You can't discuss one without the other as you will then be given the impression that women are treated differently to men on After Hours and that would be wholly unfair as it is just not the case.
I don't share that point of view at all. If that were the case you also disagree with tLL/tGC, yes? They are allowed to discuss issues that are related to their gender and I have seen them ask people of the opposite gender to respectfully bow out.
Just because we face the same issues doesn't mean we face them in the same way, and I think that if you feel sexism towards men is rampant then a thread should be started asap so it can be targeted and remedied.OutlawPete wrote: »I have seen it and you are missing the point made by many posters by repeating: "It's been done to death, to death".
If Mods & CMods ignore and don't act on personal abuse, you have the option of starting a Help Desk thread, have you ever done that?
I'm not even going to bother dignifying this.OutlawPete wrote: »That thread was used to show that it goes on.
If Thaed had of started this thread, I would have posted many of her sexist comments from After Hours to show that there is a lot of hypocrisy on this thread.
And that still doesn't make it right, no matter who it is. By bringing names into it you are targeting those specific posters. I was right up with your posts, and yes, I recognized the quotes as my own immediately and still was with you. You had a point, men get sexism too.
I disagreed with actually expressing who wrote them for two reasons:
1) It's an attempt to discredit the posts made in this thread by using the poster's history.
2) It's an attempt to bring in an entirely different set of issues (sexism against men) and would have derailed the topic.
1 bothers me not because it's me-- make no mistake, I would be posting the exact same way if it was anyone else you had brought up-- but because the posts should be viewed as posts. Not who posted them. That's the whole basis of the forum-- "attack the posts, not the poster." By actually going through a poster's history, you're turning the discussion away from the points and bringing it into a personal attack.
2 bothers me because I believe more respect would be paid to both issues if they were tackled in a way that was specific to the issues each group faces. Sexism towards men and sexism towards women tend to define themselves in different ways, so it makes more sense to keep them separate so it doesn't turn into a gender debate as it has done right now.OutlawPete wrote: »Wow, talk about playing the victim, how santimonious can you get.
I quoted some sexist comments that you made in one of your After Hour's threads and suddenly I'm "attacking you" and going into your "personal past"???
Quite unbelievable.
You're misinterpreting my points. I've clarified them above, specifically the 1st point of the two.0 -
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Steak & Blowjob Day? Why?
Because the first time I heard of it of was you started a thread on it in AH.I don't share that point of view at all. If that were the case you also disagree with tLL/tGC, yes?
No, how you would come to that conclusion I have no idea.
The point is that After Hours is a pub, in that pub there are sexist remarks made all the time directed at both sexes from both sexes.
If you want to address them, as I have done many times, you need to debate them.
If they get personal and abusive, then report them.
I have had two women banned and another infracted on After Hours for making personally abusive comments to me when debating the sexism issue.
See, your missing the point, that by trying to address just sexist remarks made towards women, you are skewing the issue and so giving the impression that After Hours is a place where women are walked on by men.
However, when you take into account that comments from women are made quite regularly which are also sexist like "man up", "grow a pair", "you're just sexually frustrated", "sounds like small man syndrome" etc etc, well then you start to get a far clearly picture of what the forum is actually like.
It's a far cry from the male dominated cauldron that you are implying exists, where men just insult women for fun and nothing is being done about it.You're misinterpreting my points. I've clarified them above, specifically the 1st point of the two.
No, I did NOT.
You accused me of "attacking" you and dragging your "personal past" into this debate and I did no such thing.Just because we face the same issues doesn't mean we face them in the same way, and I think that if you feel sexism towards men is rampant then a thread should be started asap so it can be targeted and remedied.
Woman talk about equal rights all the time, yet when it comes to issues like this, suddenly it's an issue that needs to be looked at on it's own.
Well, it shouldn't.
Sexism is sexism and should not be divided.
If it is going to be addressed, then it should be addressed for both sexes.And that still doesn't make it right, no matter who it is. By bringing names into it you are targeting those specific posters.
If users are being hypocritical by screaming sexism and demanding that it be stopped and asking why nothing being done about it, and yet those very same posters as a guilty as sin of the very thing they are complaining about, then your godamnded right that they need to be quoted and shown for precisely what they are, hypocrites and I make no apology for it.0 -
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"look at the pipe on yer wan, id hit that sh1t 2 times" then a link to a daily mail article about a woman in Bengal that blew her dog, followed by "dirty bitch", "eww the skank"
You have such a way with words snyper
I can’t believe this bickering is still going on.
After Hours to me is a place for having a bit of a laugh. A couple of Fridays ago, I spent half the day writing stupid puns and laughing at other peoples puns. Those days happen often, where it’s all about the puns. Other days, somebody decides they have had enough of travellers for whatever reason – it turns in to a ripple effect. As a result of that, people are replying to all sorts of threads blaming the travellers for Brian Cowen making a mess of an interview. Or blame the polish because a sandwich was stolen out of a fridge. It’s stupid childish fun. The type of fun a lot of us enjoy.
Then sometimes, somebody will go over the top on the traveller subject, or on Cowen or on the celebrity of the day, and somebody will react and it ends up getting out of hand.
These jokes are all part of that (please don’t jump to say you don’t care about the jokes)
There were a couple of posters cut out of that thread in AH on this subject because they had a couple of funny digs. I put in my own attempt at lame humour and see I’ve got yellow carded for that. That is what I don’t like to see happening. I’d never like to see people in AH getting warned all the time for silly little comments like I made on there.
You’ll often see on the serious threads on AH, the poster will give a genuine/helpful answer and then add in “AH reply: something silly here” because that is the nature of the forum.
snyper put it very well there, as so many have over the hundreds and hundreds of posts since last night. The posts that are causing trouble are the personal abuse posts, and they happen to be sexist. Liah and many others would like to see the reports given the same attention as any relating to homophobia, racism etc. they believe they have been overlooked, because a lot of that stuff has been let go in the past. A second look to see is it acceptable is all they ask – would I be right?
That is a perfectly good point that she has made.
Just please leave AH as it is and give a little more attention to these type of reports.0 -
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If I read that, I'd piss myself laughing - it also takes a nice satirical swipe at some AH posters.The issue is not with, "look at the pipe on yer wan, id hit that sh1t 2 times" then a link to a daily mail article about a woman in Bengal that blew her dog, followed by "dirty bitch", "eww the skank" - "thats women for ya, she must have thought the dog was rich"
If there was a thread however about some guy waking up naked with his every personal effect gone because his Irish girlfriend drugged him and fleeced him for all he was worth and some genius came along and said "Irish woman, what do you expect? :rolleyes: Poor guy - it's why I keep away from Irish women, foreign women are so much better in every way and they're not gonna start looking like godzilla by the age of 28 lol" I would report that post and would consider it only fair that the poster at least get told to back himself up or stfu, not necessarily get infracted... but up to now, I wouldn't have expected such a reprimand whatsoever. Not having a go at the AH mods, just observational. And someone like that is going to be considered a troll - not necessarily. I've seen regular posters say stuff like that, often very rational when it comes to other subjects, articulate, thoughtful etc, but that goes out the window when it comes to women.
Now that example I gave isn't personal abuse, it's a sh1tty attack on a particular group though, part of whose demographic reads Boards. Same with the scumbag or junkie threads - e.g. when some tool comes along and says they're not human (without irony) etc. I reported such a post recently, no reprimand, to my knowledge. People from areas considered "scum" areas read Boards too. So this isn't just a "single issue campaign", for me anyway.
I know absolutely you're not sexist Snyper, but on the sports reporter thread, the insults and dismissal were one hundred per cent because of our gender - if a guy had said the same things as us, he wouldn't have been spoken to the way we were. He might have been told to lighten up; going by past patterns, at worst he would have been told in a good-natured fashion that he's just going mad he can't get a hot woman.The issue is where a female member would reply to the same thread about the woman in bengal and be offended by the replies or give an opinion on it and some arsehole responds to that by calling her a femnazi or having a neandethal brain for being offended.. The difference is PERSONAL ABUSE!
You can cloak it by calling it sexist personal abuse, but its not, its just personal abuse, and the issue is that many men perhaps including myself get defensive when sexism is brought into the fold.
I am not a sexist, in the slightest, but i reserve the right to make the somewhat unsavory joke, and its that issue thats causing the problem here and making this thread more complicated than it needs to be
If there was an article on a woman blowing her dog and someone made the comment like you suggested, I think it would be unwise for a woman to come along and wag her finger and give out to the fellas, because it's clearly just a joke (or maybe a troll sometimes, in which case it should just be ignored) even if not to everyone's tastes. The hypothetical woman in question hasn't been mistreated anyway. The sports reporter though did feel a tad mistreated - due to being made embarrassed and uncomfortable, and one side of the debate was presented, so all I and others did was argue the other side, as you do on a debate. It wasn't a case of me and Liah and others being stern women coming along to spoil the jokes party - there wasn't a joke, it was a genuine issue for discussion, and an interesting one. But the subject was a very attractive woman with a great body so it had to be devalued by a few, natch.
And someone said on the now closed thread that maybe there can be an undercurrent of animosity towards women because of misandry (which I agree has become very prevalent in popular culture)... Sad state of affairs if there are those who actually think "As a man I'm starting to get pissed off with how my gender is often treated - and women aren't my gender, so I'll blame them".0 -
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Just giving my own 2c, although I'm more of a lurker than a poster in After Hours!
I think that the moderators are doing a fantastic job as it is - and it must be a very tough job! It's very difficult to get the balance right between respecting people and keeping it fun. Any sexist comments I've seen are mostly banter and messing, and are obviously meant to be taken that way.
I have also often seen very genuinely nasty sexist offensive comments, such as those that the OP is complaining about. But the thing is, pretty much any time I've seen such a comment, if I have a look back later it's been removed and a mod warning left in place. The mods do take action on these things, handing out bans and infractions etc, and I'm sure they keep a close watch on regular "offenders". And there are a few names I've noticed, a couple of pricks who give AH in general a bad name. But you know, if I see a post by one of those guys, I just skip right over it. And of course the ignore function is there if anyone feels the need to use it.
As far as I can see, the only way of "solving" this problem would be by pre-modding every single comment that's posted, and even apart from the fact that this would obviously be completely impractical, it's not something that I would be in favour of at all.
I really dislike sexism. But I'm well able to see when it's funny and lighthearted. And I would never hesitate to report it if it's not. And, for example, I will report posts in the Motors forum if they are even in the slightest bit sexist ... I find those offensive because it's generally quite obvious that they're meant fully seriously. But 99% of what's said in AH is crap talk. I wouldn't waste my energy getting worked up about it.
As for anyone who really feels that AH as a whole is sexist and misogynist, and that the problem is with the forum and not just with a couple of posters. Why the hell do you want to use it? That's a genuine question? There are plenty of forums on Boards that I avoid. For example, The Thunderdrome, Personal Issues, and others, for various reasons. Instead of picking issues with these forums and the reasons I don't like them, I just leave them to the many many users that obviously enjoy using the forums, and find others more suited to me.
One suggestion that I would make. Why not consider getting another female mod? As far as I know, there's only one at the moment. As I said already, I think that the moderation of the forum is spot on as it is ... but there's that quote that not only should justice be done, it should be seen to be done. So, for "diplomatic" reasons, taking another female mod on board mightn't be a bad thing?
And you know, I feel bad even suggesting that in a way, because I suppose it's a form of positive discrimination and that's something I despise. But it's just a suggestion!
In my own opinion, the vast vast majority of regular AH users (both male and female) seem to be happy with the way it's being run already (and, I know, you're never going to please everyone.) If it's not broke why fix it!0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 33520
Basically, a lot of girls are upset about the general attitude towards women that seems to be increasing in AH. The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen!
") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.
Then you and the after hours mods are singing from the same hymn sheet. We allow the stupid jokes but we don't allow the abuse. Yes, some posts will slip through the net. This happens with everything not just remarks made against women simply because after hours is huge and it's stupidly hard to keep every single post and thread in line.Funny how if you mirror that with the line "men are bastards" it get up male posters noses in ah, same with the "men are rapists".
Woop-de-fúcking-doo if it gets up their noses. As long as it's said in a manner that isn't against the rules then I'm not gonna stop people saying men are bastards.It's funny, any time I've made an off the cuff remark about men without using "some men" I've always been immediately called out for it. Not taken action against, I mean, but the men get incredibly pissed off and go mad at me and certainly don't "just ignore it" or see it as a joke.
Yet when a man makes an off the cuff remark about women of the exact same nature it's all lols.
In other words, take the same statement applied to both genders. One said by a woman to a group of men (we'll go with "men are bastards"), and one said by a man to a group of women (we'll go with "women are bitches").
When "men are bastards" is said by a woman, men tend to jump on the "don't generalize" boat and start throwing their weight around. Then the woman typically disappears.. or it ends in a war between the woman who said it and a bunch of guys attacking her.
When "women are bitches" is said by a man, there's generally a response from woman or a few with "don't generalize" and a bit of weight thrown around, and a SLEW of thanks and more of those style of jokes. The women then get run out of the thread for reacting the exact same way a man would.
I mean, obviously it depends on the thread, not every one that goes down like that, but I'm nearly positive most of the women posting have experienced something like this on at least one occasion, if not many more times, or been witness to it.
Well what would you like the after hours mods to do about things like that? I don't see us being able to do much about it. We can't force the women to stand their ground and keep hammering the point home and we can't exactly start banning guys when ever they do it when the situation is reversed.Really funny the ah mods deiced enough was enough with the 'yore ma' and know they delete it and have laid down the law that it's no longer acceptable, why can the same thing be done with the trite comments re in the kitchen, feminazi and pms ?
Well the "get back in the kitchen" type stupid jokes aren't as prevalent as "yore ma" was. Yore ma posts were in pretty much every single thread and had completely taken over threads by the stage we cracked down. A typical thread would go something like this.
What do you think of the new budget?
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
They raised the price of fags again. Bastards!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
Yore ma!
That's a bit of an exaggeration but not much. I remember having to delete 15 yore ma posts from a thread just after it had gotten on to the second page (and I only have 20 posts per page). It wouldn't have been too bad if the thread started had mention his mother or had said something about mothers but he didn't. The stupid women jokes can't even compare to the yore ma posts at their height. They'd be on the same level as a lot of other stupid memes (e.g. stupid meme is stupid and countless others I can't remember because my brain has blocked them out) that we don't bother cracking down on.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W6cT3Tvu9g
This discussion has been closed.
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