AH & Perceived Sexism

Wibbs

OutlawPete wrote: »

Liah was not "rounded on".

She complained that misogynistic and sexist comments were overlooked by the moderators on After Hours and I quoted one of her threads to make that point that men also have to put up with sexist rubbish.

Oh don't get me wrong I dont think she was bullied. She was rounded on though IMHO. At times there was more petty point scoring on all sides than reasoned debate, over the actual issue and because she was in the minority more flowed her way. That's all I meant.

On the sexism aimed at men? Meh would be my personal reaction to them. They have zero effect on me. As do the ones aimed at women, but in both cases I can see how some would be affected, or others would simply not post. Where anyones opinion is dressed down on the basis of gender I do have an issue with. Looking through the threads in my time on AH, they're caught by the AH mods more times than they are not.

More to the point solutions have been pretty thin on the ground. "You're sexist". "No you are" may well have value as examples people are seeing, but how does this translate into any change or not people want to see? Where would anyone suggest the AH mods draw the line? What constitutes sexism and what constitutes a joke? That kinda thing.



My take after 26 pages here and more IIRC in the AH thread is yes there is an element of what Dr Zeus highlighted, sometimes buried under the passion of both sides. People need to responsibly report these instances to flag them. Let the AH mods do their job. Drawing up OTT guidelines sucks the fun outa the place. Now that the issue has come to light, a middle ground that doesnt take away from the really good AH forum will likely be found.

jokettle

OutlawPete wrote: »

I see no evidence that Liah was the victim of any "bullying" on this thread, none whatsoever.

I ask you to name the users that you feel bullied her and quote the posts in which they did so, otherwise withdraw that remark.

I want to use this post as an example of the kind of thing I'd love to see more of in AH.

I've read this thread in full and I think, as was said above, that Liah's initial post was a great one. The thread derailed quite early on but the issue still remains.

While i like the idea of AH as a place where people can have a chat and relax, and perhaps not take things quite as seriously as they would in other forums, I believe the tone of certain posts (and perhaps posters) could do with being brought in line with what would be socially acceptable if, say, we were down the pub with some friends.

I hang out with a lot of guys and sure, there are a few sexist jokes thrown about but they are clearly intended as jokes. I give as good as I get, we laugh, we move on.

However, if I feel personally insulted by such a remark, whether it was directed at me specifically or at my gender more generally, I'll call on the individual to back up their claim or admit they're wrong. Case in point: one male friend made a flippant remark along the lines of "Women are **** drivers". This p*ssed me off because a) it's a stupid, outdated and IMO a sexist thing to say, b) I'm a much better driver than he is and c) any amount of studies and statistics can back up my POV. So I gave him a piece of my mind. I think if offhand, sexist-themed comments like that are allowed to pervade AH with no one batting an eyelid, posters (both male and female, depending on the topic at hand) will feel dismissed, devalued and irritated*.

I don't know how I feel about the view "if you don't like the thread, don't read it". At surface value, it makes sense. But if I can use the "down the pub" allegory again (if that's the right word), if my friends started a topic that insulted me, or made comments that insulted me, should I be expected to get up and leave? Or should I stay put and try to convey my differing viewpoint, no matter how unwelcome it may be? I'm just not sure that the best solution is for those of us who feel offended by some remarks or topics to just f*ck off and not annoy the locals. That sounds a lot harsher than how I genuinely feel but I can't find a better way to express myself.

*I really wish I could have thought of another "D" word here.

Darlughda

Dudess wrote: »

Yep, I don't like the bullying direction this thread has taken. It's a load of people versus two, maybe just one at this stage,

Its rare that I would disagree with you Dudess, but I do not think bullying is going on here.

Liah was caught out fair and square regarding some outrageous sexist posts. She then turns whiney and plays the victim card, whinging that old posts should not be used against her in some kind of 'witch hunt'.

Never, does she detail how she differs or elaborates why and how she has different ideas from the post she originally made.

The cause of feminism is an easy bandwagon to follow. I suspect that it is an identity calling card for some posters on this thread to rally the troops to 'report posts'.

I may not agree with Outlaw Pete on his viewpoints etc, but never has he been either unfair to another poster, imho, or callously abusive to one.

AckwelFoley

jokettle wrote: »

I"Women are **** drivers". This p*ssed me off because a) it's a stupid, outdated and IMO a sexist thing to say, b) I'm a much better driver than he is and c) any amount of studies and statistics can back up my POV.
.

It depends on what one defines as "better"

The studies and statistics say women are safer drivers.

There are not alot of, if any women driving in Formula 1 or the WRC.

Anyhow, apologies, this is offtopic. Im just being pedantic

--Kaiser--

Darlughda wrote: »

Its rare that I would disagree with you Dudess, but I do not think bullying is going on here.

Liah was caught out fair and square regarding some outrageous sexist posts. She then turns whiney and plays the victim card, whinging that old posts should not be used against her in some kind of 'witch hunt'.

Never, does she detail how she differs or elaborates why and how she has different ideas from the post she originally made.

The cause of feminism is an easy bandwagon to follow. I suspect that it is an identity calling card for some posters on this thread to rally the troops to 'report posts'.

I may not agree with Outlaw Pete on his viewpoints etc, but never has he been either unfair to another poster, imho, or callously abusive to one.

In my opinion it's a very poor debater who plays the victim card like this, if you've got a good point you should be able to make regardless of how many people oppose your opinion.

Overheal

You want to know why I really think this thread has taken a nose dive for you, other than the fact that I think you don't really have a genuine complaint of moderators ignoring sexist abuse I mean?

Actually: if I am reading Thaed on this thread correctly, it has in the past been an issue. And so I went back to 2008 and with what I am now able to gather it was very likely an issue. It did always strike me funny that the thread wasn't deleted and I wasn't banned, and why it instead turned into a disaster... something in the system broke down. Thats what I have learned since.

So I feel that it had happened before, I don't know if it's happening again; I don't get that impression. But I'm open to the possibility. So far though I can only see that Biko and Mickey and the other AH are not sitting down on this issue today.

So no Pete I think its unfair to say Liah has no genuine complaint. She does.

Wibbs

Darlughda wrote: »

I may not agree with Outlaw Pete on his viewpoints etc, but never has he been either unfair to another poster, imho, or callously abusive to one.

I agree with this too. The bullying thing IMHO is a step too far, but bloods up and no point getting bogged down in that stuff. Good points have been raised on all sides.

liah

OutlawPete wrote:

You know Liah, you paid more attention to the fact that I quoted you than anybody else.

It was quickly moved on from, but you kept bringing it back up saying that I had discredited you and researched your posts.

I did nothing of the sort, I remembered the thread and quoted you to show that sexism on AH is something both sexes deal with, nothing more and nothing less.

You want to know why I really think this thread has taken a nose dive for you, other than the fact that I think you don't really have a genuine complaint of moderators ignoring sexist abuse I mean?

I think it has taken a nosedive because there were many users on that AH that seemed to be backing you up and then deserted you when you needed them.

If it is such an big and genuine issue and problem that your proclaim it to be, then where are all these users that are regularly the victims of the misogynistic abuse on After Hours?

I have now deleted any reference to you or that thread from my earlier post by the way.

Not because I feel it wasn't relevant, but in an effort to stop you and others from continuing to make a massive deal of it and stop the accusations of bullying and slandering.

I'm not sure why you would think people think you are horrible.

I quite like your posts on AH and maybe you never noticed, but I have thanked your posts quite a bit over the past year or so.

On this one issue, we disagree - that is all.

Not quite sure what you mean by your opening sentence. If there was a reason I kept bringing it back it was because my posts were being directly responded to with questions relating to what I had said and I had to repeat myself. I was hardly just waffling off with no interaction.

I'm also getting fairly sick of people presuming to understand how I feel about things and passing them off as fact.

I don't give a damn who else is posting, if the posts are related to me I'll respond to them and if it's my opinion I'll give it, I'm not exactly a thanks whore and I don't need the backing of others to feel better about my opinion. As people keep asking me questions relating to the quotes issue, the discussion ended up where everybody started going after me and so there was nothing left to discuss on the original topic.

Yes, we disagree. I admit fault in letting it get to me and therefore letting it derail the topic but I hate being taken out of context, drives me up the wall. But I really, REALLY think you could have approached your case better, you must've known that it would a) bother me and b) cause people to read my posts with a bias. Can you understand why I feel that to be unfair and why I would be bothered by it, at least?

Darlughda wrote: »

Its rare that I would disagree with you Dudess, but I do not think bullying is going on here.

Liah was caught out fair and square regarding some outrageous sexist posts. She then turns whiney and plays the victim card, whinging that old posts should not be used against her in some kind of 'witch hunt'.

Never, does she detail how she differs or elaborates why and how she has different ideas from the post she originally made.

The cause of feminism is an easy bandwagon to follow. I suspect that it is an identity calling card for some posters on this thread to rally the troops to 'report posts'.

I may not agree with Outlaw Pete on his viewpoints etc, but never has he been either unfair to another poster, imho, or callously abusive to one.

If people were quoting you out of context using posts from a thread (in which it was clarified that I do not actually hold those views, but apparently that doesn't matter) started over a year ago in order to win an argument I'm pretty sure you'd get defensive too.

I certainly don't think it's necessary to say I'm "whining" or "playing the victim" card, from my perspective it's something that pisses me off and I'll stand and fight my corner. There's nothing wrong with people fighting their corners and it certainly doesn't constitute whining or playing the victim.

I don't appreciate the implication of feminism, either, as it gets right back to why this thread was started in the first place. I'm not a feminist, nor have I ever been, and probably will not ever be. Apologies if I've misinterpreted your comment or if it wasn't meant for me, but I would like that to be clear.

GAAman

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

[QUOTE=GAAman;68060417] I have said numerous times to numerous females in my life to "get back in the kitchen" etc but i have NEVER been in any aspect serious
Don't mean to drag this off topic further but I am just wondering why you have said "get back to the kitchen" numerous times to the women in your life?

This is the bit I am having a sense of humour by pass with. Is it that you feel it is a really funny and witty thing to say to women and get a great laugh about it or do the woman in your life roll on the floor when you say it?

I was going to pm you so as not to bring this topic further off course but i feel i should say it here. I do not feel saying that is "really funny and witty" it is as it is meant, a lighthearted simple joke with no malicious intent whatsoever. The women in my life know to take me when i am joking as just that and i do not appreciate the subtle undertone in your post which attempts to portray me in a sexist light "do the women in your life roll on the floor when you say it"

If this does not answer your question fully pm me instead so this thread can deal with the matter at hand

liah

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

In my opinion it's a very poor debater who plays the victim card like this, if you've got a good point you should be able to make regardless of how many people oppose your opinion.

I'd debated for two threads worth. I'd raised some solid points. I'd raised some weak ones. Some people agree, some don't, standard fare.

I really don't think it's fair to call me a "poor debater" or insinuate I was "pulling the victim card" when I was simply responding to an issue directly related to me that very obviously put me in a bad light and was out of context.

Honestly, is there really any need to be so churlish? It's just getting pot shots in at this stage and there's no need for it.

--Kaiser--

liah wrote: »

I'd debated for two threads worth. I'd raised some solid points. I'd raised some weak ones. Some people agree, some don't, standard fare.

I really don't think it's fair to call me a "poor debater" or insinuate I was "pulling the victim card" when I was simply responding to an issue directly related to me that very obviously put me in a bad light and was out of context.

Honestly, is there really any need to be so churlish? It's just getting pot shots in at this stage and there's no need for it.

The post was in reply to accusations of bullying made by Dudess. It's unfortunate that there are more people adding to this thread than it is realistic to reply to, however I don't think that counts as bullying or ganging up.

Outlaw Petes post may have seemed like an attack but I think it's worth noting that sexism goes both ways on AH.

liah

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

The post was in reply to accusations of bullying made by Dudess. It's unfortunate that there are more people adding to this thread than it is realistic to reply to, however I don't think that counts as bullying or ganging up.

Outlaw Petes post may have seemed like an attack but I think it's worth noting that sexism goes both ways on AH.

I don't think anyone ever said it doesn't. But obviously it hadn't bothered men enough to create a thread about it. Perceived sexism bothered a man enough to make a thread about misogyny, though.

I guess my point is it just seems like you guys think this thread is saying men don't experience sexism. It isn't. I've seen almost all the women who've posted here repeatedly defending men and men's rights and I myself have done so on various topics. I'm not trying to insinuate men don't face issues too.

It's kind of like the tLL/tGC concept. It's nice to be able to see it from just the woman's point of view as women and men tend to interpret things differently, and if both were posting it would probably go in two very different directions and get messy. That's it, that's all.

Darlughda

liah wrote: »

I don't appreciate the implication of feminism, either, as it gets right back to why this thread was started in the first place. I'm not a feminist, nor have I ever been, and probably will not ever be. Apologies if I've misinterpreted your comment or if it wasn't meant for me, but I would like that to be clear.

Well, I don't appreciate your apologist position. I am a feminist. Publicly.

Most of the issues I would be concerned with are regarding child care, or how women who choose to be child free in a work environment are considered.

Majority of sexism towards women, ime, comes from women towards other women. Maybe this is the effect of a patriarchal, conventionalist society, or maybe it highlights that women can be a woman's worst enemy.

AH stuff is silly nonsense that makes me laugh, when I have nothing better to do, as long as I can reply with equally silly nonesense.

The real fight for feminism is not here on boards, but in the workplace where women will actually conspire against another woman for taking sick leave because she has very painful, bad periods. The attitude of 'I can do it,so why can't she' is still very pervasive and dangerous.

Your disowning of feminism along with still yet no explanation for your about turn on sexist posts, albeit made in time past, makes me suspect you are nothing more than an attention seeker.

liah

Oh, and actually, a final note:

I apologize for my posts seeming a bit hard to follow (if, in fact, they do) or don't make sense in relation to other things I've said. There's a variety of reasons for this.

1) I think very fluidly and the way I think can change fairly rapidly if presented with good enough information. However, I'm stubborn, and I apologize for that, but I can be rationed around and reasoned with as long as I'm treated fairly. In this thread that took far too long because a lot of the comments came across as very short, blunt, and frankly a lot of them were just plain condescending, but I do accept responsibility for the way I responded to them.

2) I've got some issues going on with my health. Don't wanna get into it as it's obviously not relevant, but let's just say the nerves are shot, and I apologize if I seem like I'm jumping down anyone's throats, being condescending, over-defensive, etc. Genuinely.

The context of my original comments against men in the thread quoted is misrepresented. And if it seems like backpeddling, fine, but the fact is I did say later on in the thread the quotes were from that it's not the way I felt. Admittedly the comments look very bad, but rape has been an issue in my life and at the time of posting, I'm pretty sure drugs were a factor, and it was a mix of E, childishness, churlishness and bitterness that produced those responses from me. I accept responsibility for them, too, but they were never my true opinion and that is why I got so defensive about them being used.

It added a bias to any good points I may have made which I don't think was necessary to get across the point Pete was trying to make. With a bit of foresight in posting the thing could have been avoided, he must've been at least somewhat aware that it would offend me. I could be wrong.

I do feel a lot of comments directed towards me were out of line, but I recognize that they were in response to my expressions of exasperation and frustration. Still, they could've been approached differently.

As for the original topic, I still think there's some issues that need to be banged out and more input as to where the comfort line is until a compromise can be sorted out. If you wish to discuss discrimination against men in AH, then do so. I'm sure you'll receive plenty of support and I hope indeed that you do.

All the best.

liah

Darlughda wrote: »

Well, I don't appreciate your apologist position. I am a feminist. Publicly.

Most of the issues I would be concerned with are regarding child care, or how women who choose to be child free in a work environment are considered.

Majority of sexism towards women, ime, comes from women towards other women. Maybe this is the effect of a patriarchal, conventionalist society, or maybe it highlights that women can be a woman's worst enemy.

AH stuff is silly nonsense that makes me laugh, when I have nothing better to do, as long as I can reply with equally silly nonesense.

The real fight for feminism is not here on boards, but in the workplace where women will actually conspire against another woman for taking sick leave because she has very painful, bad periods. The attitude of 'I can do it,so why can't she' is still very pervasive and dangerous.

Your disowning of feminism along with still yet no explanation for your about turn on sexist posts, albeit made in time past, makes me suspect you are nothing more than an attention seeker.

I don't believe in feminism because I believe it promotes one sex over the other, which is neither equal nor fair.

Your other insinuations are wholly unnecessary and are entirely groundless. But you're entitled to your opinion as am I. All the best.

--Kaiser--

liah wrote: »

Oh, and actually, a final note:
2) I've got some issues going on with my health. Don't wanna get into it as it's obviously not relevant, but let's just say the nerves are shot, and I apologize if I seem like I'm jumping down anyone's throats, being condescending, over-defensive, etc. Genuinely.

Sorry to hear. Get well soon.

_feedback_

ibarelycare wrote: »

the tag on this thread :D

I try my best

Edit after even more reading: Get well soon liah. Keep in good spirits.

Dr. Zeus

liah wrote: »

2) I've got some issues going on with my health. Don't wanna get into it as it's obviously not relevant, but let's just say the nerves are shot, and I apologize if I seem like I'm jumping down anyone's throats, being condescending, over-defensive, etc. Genuinely.

Get well soon Liah. Sorry to hear you are not doing so well. I admire your guts and determination.

Dudess

I apologise for using the expression "bullying" - I did not mean it in the literal sense, I said "the bullying direction this is veering in" as in it was entering ganging up, up against the wall territory. I don't like seeing that, no matter how out of order the poster is, if they're at pains to explain themselves over and over and they put thought into their posts. Liah isn't just some troll, to be fair.

Jazzy, I was someone who actually defended Spiritoftheseventies. I could see how he annoyed people initially but after a while, the way he was being spoken to became very unpleasant to read, no matter how irritating he was. And by Jesus he was at times.

metrovelvet

I think it is borderline bullying tbh.

Liah made an observation and brought it to feedback. Others agreed with her and some didn't.

Then the people who disagreed with her went digging through her past to somehow invalidate her observations. Whatever she said or didn't say in the past should have no bearing on her observations about what goes on in AH.

It reminds me of those stories you hear about of a girl who charges rape and then the defense attorney brings up her sexual history. What has that got to to with the guilt or innocence of the accused?

Bringing out accusations of the victim card to get her to shut up. Its pathetic. The irony is that she then does actually play the victim card by saying how sick she has been and then the antagonism stops. But nothing has really been resolved now has it.

And so what if she is a feminist? So what if anyone is? Why is that now a derogatory accusation?

And all to defend the honor of AH with such majestic vehemance that it is not a cesspool of misogyny. Looks to me like Feedback is too.

This is the nastiest thread I have ever come across on boards. Its actually more disgusting than anything I've read on AH.

Gummy Panda

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think it is borderline bullying tbh.

Liah made an observation and brought it to feedback. Others agreed with her and some didn't.

Then the people who disagreed with her went digging through her past to somehow invalidate her observations. Whatever she said or didn't say in the past should have no bearing on her observations about what goes on in AH.

It reminds me of those stories you hear about of a girl who charges rape and then the defense attorney brings up her sexual history. What has that got to to with the guilt or innocence of the accused?

Bringing out accusations of the victim card to get her to shut up. Its pathetic. The irony is that she then does actually play the victim card by saying how sick she has been and then the antagonism stops. But nothing has really been resolved now has it.

And so what if she is a feminist? So what if anyone is? Why is that now a derogatory accusation?

And all to defend the honor of AH with such majestic vehemance that it is not a cesspool of misogyny. Looks to me like Feedback is too.

This is the nastiest thread I have ever come across on boards. Its actually more disgusting than anything I've read on AH.

Dramatic much?

AnnyHallsal

There's definitely an air of ganging up. I'm not surprised liah is overwhelmed. Who could stand up against such an onslaught?

_feedback_

I kind of said this last night already, but I was drunk. Luckily I'm not drunk tonight.*

*may not be true.




Seriously, we need to get back to basics. Wipe the blackboard clean and start again with the solutions to the problems. liah says she's finished here, so maybe we shouldn't continue to rip every little thing she has said apart and try to wrap up the thread. The solutions have been established. At the moment, it's just about finding problems with liahs posts.


EDIT: Holy shít. I just realised I used the word we in there. Let's be clear, I'm not speaking for all boards users.









You see, I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

AnnyHallsal

liah was brave and defended her sincerely felt position over two extremely long threads and the most intense opposition. I respect that.

metrovelvet

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Dramatic much?

Oblivious much?

Or are you just trying to find another word for hysterical?

Gummy Panda

metrovelvet wrote: »

Oblivious much?

Or are you just trying to find another word for hysterical?

No I'm busy trying to imagine this thread like you described. I think you watched The Accused too much.

AckwelFoley

metrovelvet wrote: »

Oblivious much?

Or are you just trying to find another word for hysterical?

No, i believe he thinks as i do that you were being incredibly over dramatic

This is the nastiest thread I have ever come across on boards. Its actually more disgusting than anything I've read on AH.

metrovelvet

Are you going to ask me if I have my period now?

phasers

metrovelvet wrote: »

Are you going to ask me if I have my period now?

Now you're trying to make this about your being female?

Seriously?

--Kaiser--

metrovelvet wrote: »

Are you going to ask me if I have my period now?

Your absurd comments don't deserve replies