AH & Perceived Sexism

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

how in the name of hell is this trolling?

you're asking for opinions you dissaprove of to be shut out of the forum, but it's not censorship?

... how?

you can't just scream 'troll' and wipe your hands of the discussion.

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

Because the admins have said no time and time again.

:S What are the reasons given?

AH has a reputation for being the de facto general discussion forum of Boards.ie. However, it is not. It's a hodgepodge of general discussion, trolling, banter, offensive jokes and a cohort of mods battling against the latter 3.

I don't think it's worth fighting all the crap on AH when there's a perfectly reasonable case for a separate, more heavily censored general discussion forum.

Jazzy

surely you just report the posts that are abusive? whether its racism, sexism or antisemitism its shouldnt make any difference.. as ive seen said a million times here "abuse is abuse".
if you feel the mods arent catching the actual abusive posts then yeah, so be it and good idea, but if you just feel slighted because you dont like some of the jokes (which if made badly, which they often are, just makes the user look like a pleb) then you might as well not be on after hours. theres plenty I dont like on AH, but i wouldnt want mods clearing up all that crap as people have the right to post crap, unfortunate but true.

liah

super-rush wrote: »

Thats a bit unfair don't you think. I've read back through the thread and you have been listened to and Mickey D has been cleaning up the thread as quickly as he can.

I mean in regards to the replies, but again, I was very obviously wrong considering not much has been done to clean up the crap in this thread.

Might as well close it so since it's such a non-issue.

Catari Jaguar

Tallon wrote: »

liah to answer your question, personal attacks are NEVER acceptable.

The kitchen thing is funny (from a fellas POW) but if you, or any other FM poster feels like this, report the crap out of it

To illiterate:
'Liah, get in the kitchen' IS abuse
'woman, get in the kitchen' is an attempt at humour, and should be seen as nothing more

It's not funny. It's derogatory.

Winters

cherub rock wrote: »

It's not funny. It's derogatory.

Some people find movies like Bruno absolutely disgusting and derogatory but it does not mean it will get banned. You can choose to ignore it and not see it, much like people have the choice to ignore the combined idiocy and quick posting crap that AH is and use more reasonable/serious forums for the same topics.

Catari Jaguar

TheZohan wrote: »

Ahem.... you're wrong, and I bet there wasn't one reported post, nobody on thread complained.

It was said by a man....

LizT

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

how in the name of hell is this trolling?

you're asking for opinions you dissaprove of to be shut out of the forum, but it's not censorship?

... how?

you can't just scream 'troll' and wipe your hands of the discussion.

It seems to me that they're not opinions, just gratuitous sexist remarks.

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

I mean in regards to the replies, but again, I was very obviously wrong considering not much has been done to clean up the crap in this thread.

Might as well close it so since it's such a non-issue.

Again Mickey D was cleaning things up as best he could and the Feedback mods will no doubt be doing the same when they get a chance. We are happy to let the conversation continue in After Hours and anything out of line will be dealth with.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

cherub rock wrote: »

It was said by a man....

oh my god, seriously?

in a thread about sexism and the problems it brings you come out with that?

Dudess

I don't agree with infractions/warnings for mere joking around - e.g. "Get back into the kitchen" or even the "I'd do her" stuff (Look, if you find that distasteful as a woman, just ignore it). I think it is getting priorities all wrong - there are people who actively engage in posting attacks on women, and sometimes specific women, but these are slipping off the radar because the focus is wrongly (IMO) directed on sometimes benign jokes.

Winters

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

oh my god, seriously?

in a thread about sexism and the problems it brings you come out with that?

Kettle Black Pot?

Catari Jaguar

Clear here that women are second class citizens on boards.ie

Micky Dolenz

Dudess wrote: »

I don't agree with infractions/warnings for mere joking around - e.g. "Get back into the kitchen" or even the "I'd do her" stuff (Look, if you find that distasteful as a woman, just ignore it). I think it is getting priorities all wrong - there are people who actively engage in posting attacks on women, and sometimes specific women, but these are slipping off the radar because the focus is wrongly (IMO) directed on sometimes benign jokes.

I think we can all agree with that.

Hank Scorpio

And so the army march on

If people have problems with posts or threads report them and if needed make a helpdesk thread , that goes for lads or gals

This type of attention seeking mob attitude is laughable imo

liah

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

umm.. you are advocating censorship of AH. That is exactly what you are advocating. There's not even any wriggle room about it.

Winters wrote: »

I actually legally changed my middle name to "Troll".

AH is AH, a hey mix of random spouted idiocy with added idiocy. Why not have a similar thread on a more respectable forum where more logical and higher class posting is carried out in?

stovelid wrote: »

Light-hearted jokes about women, even 'sexist' ones should stay. Along with other topics. I'd hate to see another whittling away of previously-allowed funnehs.

Clearly some of the posts in the Sexual Harassment thread were nasty - the 'feminazi' ones already alluded to were the pits: even more so for me because they were aimed at a female poster that I respect a lot. That said: to me they breached more general boundaries anyway: personal attacks and trolling, for example

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

no, it really doesn't

there is quite a bit of censorship on AH. racism, travellerism, romaism. if you want censorship, just come out and admit it. we can at least have a discussion about that, but so long as you're outright refusing to be straight with us I don't see how this can proceed much further.

I feel given the current scandals I should point out I didn't intend to be homophobic when i asked that you 'be straight' with us.

--edit

damnit all, stop posting until i've had a chance to reply to the post I wanted to reply to

TheZohan wrote: »

Ahem.... you're wrong, and I bet there wasn't one reported post, nobody on thread complained.

Jazzy wrote: »

surely you just report the posts that are abusive? whether its racism, sexism or antisemitism its shouldnt make any difference.. as ive seen said a million times here "abuse is abuse".
if you feel the mods arent catching the actual abusive posts then yeah, so be it and good idea, but if you just feel slighted because you dont like some of the jokes (which if made badly, which they often are, just makes the user look like a pleb) then you might as well not be on after hours. theres plenty I dont like on AH, but i wouldnt want mods clearing up all that crap as people have the right to post crap, unfortunate but true.

One more time! :pac:

The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen! ") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

And can we stop the pedantry/nit-picking and blatant trolling?

Insect Overlord

Thaedydal wrote: »

Winters Post above reported, anyone else who think's it's out of line in this thread please report it also.

If you want to play things that way, then that post should be reported for back-seat moderation. Seeing as we're making an issue of all the rules applying to everyone and all that.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Liah those two are ex mods and trolls by any other name.
Don't let them get to you, and don't let them goad you into getting into a tit for tat with them.

This one too should be flagged for back-seat modding and for personal abuse. I'm not saying that your point is inaccurate. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of fairness in this approach to feedback.


Back on topic: Liah makes a very good point in her OP, and it sums up the problem quite well. I can't argue against the opening post here at all.

My biggest problem tonight is the way in which every single comment that poked fun at the issue has been reacted to as if it were serious abuse. The posts that are truly offensive are being lost in the back-ground noise, with obvious jokes being flagged just to prove a point. The After Hours forum is an acquired taste, yes, but its unique comic atmosphere should not be sacrificed.

Tallon correctly says that no poster should be subjected to personal abuse, whether they be female or male. Sexist comments designedly posted to rile up individuals/groups of posters should be flagged as trolling/flaming/baiting/personal abuse and dealt with suitably strictly. That should go without saying.

These should not be confused with, or tarred with the same brush as, obvious jokes. After Hours is an informal discussion forum. It's supposed to be a relaxed alternative to the Humanities/Politics forums. Humour plays an important role in that. Perhaps a link should be provided to the Charter for the Humour Forum. If jokes meet the standards out-lined there, they should be laughed at and taken on the chin. If they're Nein 11 material, infract and ban as appropriate.

Every single sub-group in the country has been ridiculed in AH at one point or another. When this results in bullying it should be punished. However, all posters should show enough maturity to recognise the difference between irreverent discussion and bigotry. The difference is usually quite obvious. Tonight, alas, this kind of thinking has been forgotten about. There's been an immature back-lash against the original back-lash, because the latter has been too extreme in its execution.

AnnyHallsal

Dudess wrote: »

I don't agree with infractions/warnings for mere joking around - e.g. "Get back into the kitchen" or even the "I'd do her" stuff (Look, if you find that distasteful as a woman, just ignore it). I think it is getting priorities all wrong - there are people who actively engage in posting attacks on women, and sometimes specific women, but these are slipping off the radar because the focus is wrongly (IMO) directed on sometimes benign jokes.

That's all well and good but the two are related and the line between them at times unclear.

stovelid

liah wrote: »

One more time! :pac:

The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen! ") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

You should also quote the woman that said the same thing in this thread.

And no need for the bold type, to be honest. Looks histrionic.

Nevyn

liah wrote: »

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

And can we stop the pedantry/nit-picking and blatant trolling?

Not at this hour of the night when they know you have been been through in ah and they have sod all better to do, you've started the thread, honestly I would leave it until the morning until there are more sensible heads around.

Wibbs

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

you can't just scream 'troll' and wipe your hands of the discussion.

With you and your little buddies it's easier than most to make that call considering your records. Equally "just having a laugh" doesnt absolve one from being subject to the don't be a dick rule. If you want your own free for all forum where it's all in good fun and harmless you know, then build one and see how many come. That stuff may have flown in the past, but times move on.



Whether I agree or disagree with individuals on either side, this is a good subject for feedback. I'm getting the impression that the AH mods agree, whichever way this pans out. Happily I'm not surprised on that score.

Tallon

cherub rock wrote: »

It's not funny. It's derogatory.

It IS funny...

Doesn't mean it's true, but its AH

As I said, if it is towards a user then thats a big no-no

I'm not condoning sexist abuse at all, as I said, I don't think thats what this thread is about, it's about personal attacks

cherub rock wrote: »

It was said by a man....

Great argument in a thread about sexism

liah

stovelid wrote: »

You should also quote the women that said the same thing in this thread.

And no need for the bold type, to be honest. Looks histrionic.

I realize that but I must have posted it at least 10 times in total between these two threads, including the OP of this thread, and it has been consistently ignored so the men can take digs in an effort to demean our argument.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

liah wrote: »

One more time! :pac:

The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen! ") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

And can we stop the pedantry/nit-picking and blatant trolling?

people ignore other peoples opinions on boards all the time for a variety of reasons. if someone out and out refuses to engage with you just because you're a woman, then ignore them. If they are abusive, report them. there are enough people that will be willing to have an actual discussion on just about any topic without having to clamp down all willy nilly.

TheZohanS

I remember when I was modding in AH we had a troll or two that posted utter crap about women and they were banned pretty sharpish, actually there was another a few months ago and he earned himself a siteban too.

What I haven't seen, and what I do not believe to be present in AH at the moment or on a constant or ongoing basis is misogyny or sexism, what I do see from time to time is the odd "get back in the kitchen" joke.

I read the thread that this thread is referring to and the attitude of a LOT of female posters was "ah no, I don't report posts, but I don't like what I read". Like I said in the other thread the Mods are not mind-readers, they're volunteers and cant possibly read every single post so do yourself and the forum a favour and report anything that seems off to you.

If you report a post the mods will discuss whether action needs to be taken or not, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. But if they see any genuine misogyny they will act on it.

Wibbs

Insect Overlord wrote: »

My biggest problem tonight is the way in which every single comment that poked fun at the issue has been reacted to as if it were serious abuse. The posts that are truly offensive are being lost in the back-ground noise, with obvious jokes being flagged just to prove a point. The After Hours forum is an acquired taste, yes, but its unique comic atmosphere should not be sacrificed.

Tallon correctly says that no poster should be subjected to personal abuse, whether they be female or male. Sexist comments designedly posted to rile up individuals/groups of posters should be flagged as trolling/flaming/baiting/personal abuse and dealt with suitably strictly. That should go without saying.

These should not be confused with, or tarred with the same brush as, obvious jokes. After Hours is an informal discussion forum. It's supposed to be a relaxed alternative to the Humanities/Politics forums. Humour plays an important role in that. Perhaps a link should be provided to the Charter for the Humour Forum. If jokes meet the standards out-lined there, they should be laughed at and taken on the chin. If they're Nein 11 material, infract and ban as appropriate.

Every single sub-group in the country has been ridiculed in AH at one point or another. When this results in bullying it should be punished. However, all posters should show enough maturity to recognise the difference between irreverent discussion and bigotry. The difference is usually quite obvious. Tonight, alas, this kind of thinking has been forgotten about. There's been an immature back-lash against the original back-lash, because the latter has been too extreme in its execution.

I'd agree with this. No point throwing the baby out with the bathwater and reducing the forum and a good one at that in the process.

AnnyHallsal

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Every single sub-group in the country has been ridiculed in AH at one point or another. When this results in bullying it should be punished. However, all posters should show enough maturity to recognise the difference between irreverent discussion and bigotry. The difference is usually quite obvious. Tonight, alas, this kind of thinking has been forgotten about. There's been an immature back-lash against the original back-lash, because the latter has been too extreme in its execution.

Not with the frequency and consistency of often quite nasty jokes about women. Tonight something spiralled out of control but it was the end product of a tolerance that borders on encouragement. If that's the kind of place AH is, so be it, but let it be clear.

Nevyn

Insect Overlord wrote: »

If you want to play things that way, then that post should be reported for back-seat moderation. Seeing as we're making an issue of all the rules applying to everyone and all that.

You can report what you like, and anything anyone thinks should be reported they are free to do so.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

This one too should be flagged for back-seat modding and for personal abuse. I'm not saying that your point is inaccurate. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of fairness in this approach to feedback.

Again report away, if the mods/admins of the forum think it's out of line they will deal with it in the morning.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Every single sub-group in the country has been ridiculed in AH at one point or another. When this results in bullying it should be punished.

Funny that threads which are abusive towards travellers ect ect are no longer allowed, and there were no posters who were travellers who were, abused, belittled and undermined.

Wibbs

TheZohan wrote: »

II read the thread that this thread is referring to and the attitude of a LOT of female posters was "ah no, I don't report posts, but I don't like what I read". Like I said in the other thread the Mods are not mind-readers, they're volunteers and cant possibly read every single post so do yourself and the forum a favour and report anything that seems off to you.

If you report a post the mods will discuss whether action needs to be taken or not, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. But if they see any genuine misogyny they will act on it.

And I defo agree with this. Report posts. Make it known. That goes double for the biggest forum on boards by a good margin.

Mrmoe

The simple answer is to report posts that you think are abusive or break the rules and the mods will deal with them. If this happens enough then the mods will get the idea that it is not acceptable and will become more stringent in their approach.

The problem up until now is that no one has complained about it. The mods do an excellent job and people need to realise that they don't have eyes on the back of their heads that they can use to keep an eye on every thread. The mods in AH do an excellent job but they need help and that comes in the form of reporting posts.