AH & Perceived Sexism

Winters

I would agree with direct personal insults and constant non-joking directed insults/replies shouldn't be condoned but these fall under the existing charter/rules anyway so...

Is it just a case of more reporting and giving the mods time to get through it all?

liah

Insect Overlord wrote: »

If you want to play things that way, then that post should be reported for back-seat moderation. Seeing as we're making an issue of all the rules applying to everyone and all that.



This one too should be flagged for back-seat modding and for personal abuse. I'm not saying that your point is inaccurate. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of fairness in this approach to feedback.


Back on topic: Liah makes a very good point in her OP, and it sums up the problem quite well. I can't argue against the opening post here at all.

My biggest problem tonight is the way in which every single comment that poked fun at the issue has been reacted to as if it were serious abuse. The posts that are truly offensive are being lost in the back-ground noise, with obvious jokes being flagged just to prove a point. The After Hours forum is an acquired taste, yes, but its unique comic atmosphere should not be sacrificed.

Tallon correctly says that no poster should be subjected to personal abuse, whether they be female or male. Sexist comments designedly posted to rile up individuals/groups of posters should be flagged as trolling/flaming/baiting/personal abuse and dealt with suitably strictly. That should go without saying.

These should not be confused with, or tarred with the same brush as, obvious jokes. After Hours is an informal discussion forum. It's supposed to be a relaxed alternative to the Humanities/Politics forums. Humour plays an important role in that. Perhaps a link should be provided to the Charter for the Humour Forum. If jokes meet the standards out-lined there, they should be laughed at and taken on the chin. If they're Nein 11 material, infract and ban as appropriate.

Every single sub-group in the country has been ridiculed in AH at one point or another. When this results in bullying it should be punished. However, all posters should show enough maturity to recognise the difference between irreverent discussion and bigotry. The difference is usually quite obvious. Tonight, alas, this kind of thinking has been forgotten about. There's been an immature back-lash against the original back-lash, because the latter has been too extreme in its execution.

Agree 100% with your post, except, it's reiterating pretty much everything we already said in the other thread. No one listened to it for us. Happy they listened to it, though quite unnerved by the fact that it only got taken seriously when you said it and not when we constantly repeated the same sentiments.. oh well.

Tallon

Thaedydal wrote: »

Not at this hour of the night when they know you have been been through in ah and they have sod all better to do, you've started the thread, honestly I would leave it until the morning until there are more sensible heads around.

Ha, says ya one that was one of the first replies to the OP

Just leave it then, and reply in the morning.

Personal abuse is a bit more serious than just a random abuse post so Liah was fine in starting the thread as I think she would have went to bed without having a fresh post and tormenting herself on whether to start it or not

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

Not at this hour of the night when they know you have been been through in ah and they have sod all better to do, you've started the thread, honestly I would leave it until the morning until there are more sensible heads around.

Most of all I agree with this. Both sides are wound up at this stage across two forums and at apparently cross purposes. IMHO most are not that different in what they want for the forum. Or at least there's defo leeway to see each others points. Neither side wants a great forum like AH to suffer, that's for sure. At the moment we're letting off steam, getting it out(inc myself. Wrongly). Better to sleep on it and see how it looks in the cold light of day. It tends to look more measured IME. Chillax, go to our beds, dream good dreams and come back refreshed in the morrow.

Nevyn

Mrmoe wrote: »

The simple answer is to report posts that you think are abusive or break the rules and the mods will deal with them. If this happens enough then the mods will get the idea that it is not acceptable and will become more stringent in their approach.

The problem up until now is that no one has complained about it. The mods do an excellent job and people need to realise that they don't have eyes on the back of their heads that they can use to keep an eye on every thread. The mods in AH do an excellent job but they need help and that comes in the form of reporting posts.

Hang this is not the first AH sexist posts rodeo.

This has come up several times before, I reported posts a lot and had one of the AH mods and rec cat mod at the time(they are no longer a mod now) do nothing about them, he even said that if someone else other then me had of done it he'd of reviewed but not me. Cos you speak up in AH and you get branded a feminist and a feminnazi and guess what it happened again today in AH to two other posters who spoke out in a thread on sexual abuse.

Wibbs

Seriously ya feckers, have ye no homes nor beds to go to? Things always look clearer in the morning, even in an Irish morning.;):eek: If nothing else build up a case against what riles you.

Nevyn

Wibbs wrote: »

Seriously ya feckers, have ye no homes nor beds to go to? Things always look clearer in the morning, even in an Irish morning.;):eek: If nothing else build up a case against what riles you.

Agreed, it's too late at night, better to get some sleep and not let certain types of night time posters, get the thread, derailed or so messy it gets locked.

Insect Overlord

Thaedydal wrote: »

Funny that threads which are abusive towards travellers ect ect are no longer allowed, and there were no posters who were travellers who were, abused, belittled and undermined.

That's a separate issue, but it's similar enough to tonight's one to warrant the same response I made earlier:

Insect Overlord wrote: »

When this results in bullying it should be punished. However, all posters should show enough maturity to recognise the difference between irreverent discussion and bigotry. The difference is usually quite obvious.

Bigots, chauvinists and other idiots should not be given a platform for their hate. Threads abusing travellers have been stopped because it's the right thing to do. Tonight will probably be the watershed for a similar approach to outright sexist abuse.

Wibbs

TBH Im only saying this cos Im old and need my cocoa and nap time.

liah

Yup. Night people. See what happens tomorrow. Hopefully something a little more substantial will come up.

Mrmoe

Thaedydal wrote: »

Hang this is not the first AH sexist posts rodeo.

This has come up several times before, I reported posts a lot and had one of the AH mods and rec cat mod at the time(they are no longer a mod now) do nothing about them, he even said that if someone else other then me had of done it he'd of reviewed but not me. Cos you speak up in AH and you get branded a feminist and a feminnazi and guess what it happened again today in AH to two other posters who spoke out in a thread on sexual abuse.

I am sorry to hear that and it sounds like a lousy way to be treated. How long ago was this? It would be worth following up with a higher power. I have only been on boards for over a year so I may have missed this.

I think and I hope that the majority of people consider the people who made those comments to be trolls.

WhodahWoodah

I'm a female poster and while I haven't really experienced this too much, my attitude to posting is that I put up my post, people may or may not reply, but if there are a few answers, or even only one, and one of them is a mysogenistic answer, I'll just ignore it. I can't be arsed getting upset about bigots or chauvenists. I just take on board the relevant replies and get on with my life. Boards is a cross section of everyone in Ireland and in a true cross section you have the normal thinking people and you also have the woman haters and equally the man haters. I just take a bit of common sense and get on with it.

That said, personal attacks are a different thing and should be (and in fairness to Boards) generally are disallowed.

But all in all I think Boards does a really good job. It's hard to control the crazies!!!!!!!

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

I reported posts a lot and had one of the AH mods and rec cat mod at the time(they are no longer a mod now) do nothing about them, he even said that if someone else other then me had of done it he'd of reviewed but not me.

Did you start a HD thread or contact Admin / SMods after no joy with the CMods of the time?

johnny_ultimate

I'm not a big AH poster, and that kind of thread is precisely why I tend to avoid the place tbh :pac:

I think it is an internet as opposed to boards wide problem though. It's always strange to me that women are kind of seen as 'outsiders' in many respects. Sexism should be as frowned upon as racism or the likes, and on websites where the vast majority of users tend to be male, it seems the backwards ones tend to should loudest. Gaming forums particular tend to view females as a strange irregularity, quite unable to deal with the issue when it arises. This is a damn shame IMO. Gender shouldn't be an issue that matters in a social space these days, and the fact that there are always articles about, say, sexism in gaming or the chaos that erupts when someone asks a question such as the one asked in AH tonight.

Again, can't really punish for general 'lol women in the kitchen' jokes. Personally, don't find them funny but plenty of people do. Kind of just have to get on with it. But personal attacks on gender grounds are not on (personal attacks in general actually!).

I think it's nice that both males and females have their own little places to interact on boards (i.e. Gentlemen's Club and Ladies Lounge) but ultimately the distinction shouldn't matter on the primary boards. There's a huge number of mods and users on boards that are women, and that's great. I don't want to see them targeted because of that. Perfect harmony would be an ideal goal. Unfortunately, the internet in general often makes it difficult to achieve that goal

WhodahWoodah

Also I think a lot of the negative posts come from the fact that if you like my post or anyone else's you can hit the thank you button, but if you don't like it the only way you can show it is to leave a negative reply. Maybe Boards should look at adding an "I disagree" button and that might solve a lot of the problems as the people disagreeing might be happy to just hit the I Disagree button, or else they could get rid of the Thanks button as if it wasn't there the people who agreed would be more likely to leave an agreeing reply???

It seems to me that the methods for agreeing and disagreeing ought to be equal if we want a truly equitable discussion forum.....

What does everyone else think???

Nevyn

OutlawPete wrote: »

Did you start a HD thread or contact Admin / SMods after no joy with the CMods of the time?

Yes, there was a huge thread in feedback and the mods promised to tighten up on it......
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055399536

Winters

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

Also I think a lot of the negative posts come from the fact that if you like my post or anyone else's you can hit the thank you button, but if you don't like it the only way you can show it is to leave a negative reply. Maybe Boards should look at adding an "I disagree" button and that might solve a lot of the problems as the people disagreeing might be happy to just hit the I Disagree button, or else they could get rid of the Thanks button as if it wasn't there the people who agreed would be more likely to leave an agreeing reply???

It seems to me that the methods for agreeing and disagreeing ought to be equal if we want a truly equitable discussion forum.....

What does everyone else think???

There used to be a rep system back years ago where users could give positive/negative marks against users for posts but it got abused and thus removed.

A disagree with thumbs down would be interesting.

WhodahWoodah

Winters wrote: »

There used to be a rep system back years ago where users could give positive/negative marks against users for posts but it got abused and thus removed.

A disagree with thumbs down would be interesting.

Exactly. If I wrote a post right now, and 5 people agree and 5 people disagree, what would happen is that my post would appear with a little line underneath saying A, B, C, D and E say thanks beneath it, but then there would be 5 full posts from the disagreers, probably all reiterating the same thing.

Except for certain really controversial issues where everyone would have posted their opinion for or against full stop.

Jazzy

liah wrote: »

Yup. Night people. See what happens tomorrow. Hopefully something a little more substantial will come up.

like what?

im really having difficulty seeing a 'final result' from this thread. what, like mods get tighter with abuse on after hours, specifically sexism? surely they should be dealing with abuse anyway?
do you want sexism more defined on the site? if so, how? where does that never ending curvy line go? ill tell you were - at the mods discretion. if a mod thinks posts are sexist and cause abuse, then they deal with them the way they see fit. do you want them leaning to one side now and really magnify in on sexism in after hours? (leaning to one side of abuse... not a gender thing). theres enough mistakes for mods to make without having another thorn in their arse and another blanket rule to cover.

liah

Jazzy wrote: »

like what?

im really having difficulty seeing a 'final result' from this thread. what, like mods get tighter with abuse on after hours, specifically sexism? surely they should be dealing with abuse anyway?
do you want sexism more defined on the site? if so, how? where does that never ending curvy line go? ill tell you were - at the mods discretion. if a mod thinks posts are sexist and cause abuse, then they deal with them the way they see fit. do you want them leaning to one side now and really magnify in on sexism in after hours? (leaning to one side of abuse... not a gender thing). theres enough mistakes for mods to make without having another thorn in their arse and another blanket rule to cover.

Please go through my posts in the first thread. I've answered everything you've asked on multiple occasions already. I have no energy and am going to bed. I will not dredge up what I've already posted; the information's there, onus is on you to find it.

Jazzy

liah wrote: »

Please go through my posts in the first thread. I've answered everything you've asked on multiple occasions already. I have no energy and am going to bed. I will not dredge up what I've already posted; the information's there, onus is on you to find it.

so your not answering any question cos you already have?

can you answer one then? - what do you want to happen?
the only answer i can see is you want the mods of AH or wherever to do their job more then they already are

liah

Jazzy wrote: »

so your not answering any question cos you already have?

can you answer one then? - what do you want to happen?
the only answer i can see is you want the mods of AH or wherever to do their job more then they already are

I want the mods of AH to take sexism just as seriously as racism, homophobia, politics and religion. Currently that's not happening.

That's literally it. All I'm asking. Said it about a hundred times. I'm going to bed.

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

I want the mods of AH to take sexism just as seriously as racism, homophobia, politics and religion. Currently that's not happening.

That's literally it. All I'm asking. Said it about a hundred times. I'm going to bed.

Hold on a sec. I've already assured you we were taking it serioulsy. What more do you want?

Jazzy

liah wrote: »

I want the mods of AH to take sexism just as seriously as racism, homophobia, politics and religion. Currently that's not happening.

That's literally it. All I'm asking. Said it about a hundred times. I'm going to bed.

I think they do already though. and if they dont, i think they will now anyhow.
but the problem is - will this little quest lead them to be more overbearing on posters who they shouldnt be overbearing on, simply because there was a thread in feedback criticising their ability to mod on that particular subject.
kinda like news channels giving out about speeding and the cops inability to catch culprits only for them to clamp down on that and become more unreasonable in one area because they dont want bad press, while there may be other problems that then go unnoticed

Jazzy

Terry wrote: »

*I left of my own accord. There is no bitterness. I just took a dislike to the cliquish behaviour of the members there, and did not agree with their pre-planned trolling of boards (AH in particular).

ive been on the boards irc channel for 4 years now or something, though not active for the first 2, and ive never seen anything pre-planned.

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes, there was a huge thread in feedback and the mods promised to tighten up on it......
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055399536

Sorry, but what has that thread got to do with what you stated both here and in AH earlier?

That link you just posted is to the Feedback thread which followed on from Overheal's AH thread where he satirically used the word "bitch" and had his thread title edited.

It has little if anything to do with the accusations that you made earlier, which again were:

Thaedydal wrote: »

I reported posts a lot and had one of the AH mods and rec cat mod at the time (they are no longer a mod now) did nothing about them, he even said that if someone else other then me had of done it, he'd of reviewed but not me.

So again I ask ..

When that AH Mod and CMod did "nothing" about the misogynistic posts that you were reporting, did you contact Admin / SMods about the matter?

Nevyn

There was a thread in the mods forum about it which resulted in the thread I linked to being started.

metrovelvet

After Hours should be renamed The Gutter. Or Slumming It.

OP-Sexism on boards will never be taken as seriously as racism or homophobia because it's not even recognised as sexism in the first place.

Catari Jaguar

Just read that old thread "Swallow [bitch], it's good for you" Absolutely appalling. It's from 2008 and Thaed is right, NOTHING has changed since. But even if it didn't have "Bitch" in the thread title (and fair play it was edited) it's still an awful topic and the replies are sexist and degrading. I just don't get how this stuff is supposedly funny. And that "This is AH ffs, if you dont't like it leave" attitude is getting old fast. Since when is AH the Thunderdome? I remember when it wasn't full of retarded jokes and innuendo. Who were the mods around 2006 - 2007? Boards isn't 4Chan. AH is the most popular and pretty much most representative forum for boards as whole. Do you want your site to look like it's frequented by dicks?

Mods may be taking it seriously now but bottom line is it has not been and will not be taken seriously as far as demeaning women goes unless it's a personal attack. Basically respecting women would get in the way of the fun in the boys club. It's clear that boys fun > than female posters not feeling offended/ degraded/ uncomfortable

metrovelvet

cherub rock wrote: »

Just read that old thread "Swallow bitch, it's good for you" Absolutely appalling. It's from 2008 and Thaed is right, NOTHING has changed since. But even if it didn't have "Bitch" in the thread title it's still an awful topic and the replies are sexist and degrading. I just don't get how this stuff is supposedly funny. And that "This is AH ffs, if you dont't like it leave" attitude is getting old fast. Since when is AH the Thunderdome? I remember when it wasn't full of retarded jokes and innuendo. Who were the mods around 2006 - 2007? Boards isn't 4Chan. AH is the most popular and pretty musch most representative forum for boards as whole. Do you want your site to look like it's frequented bydicks?

Mods may be taking it seriously now but bottom line is it has not been and will not be taken seriously as far as demeaning women goes unless it's a personal attack. Basically respecting women would get in the way of the fun in the boys club. It's clear that boys fun > than female posters not feeling offended/ degraded/ uncomfortable

Honestly, its probably better if women avoid it. They probably need a space to vent their misogyny. Maybe that is better than repressing it? It has to go somewhere right?