AH & Perceived Sexism

Hank Scorpio

liah wrote: »

And again you're misquoting.

I said that if a man and a woman make equivalent remarks to each other, the WOMAN who makes the remark about the MAN will get run out of the thread immediately and is treated seriously by the posters.
The MAN who makes an equivalent remark about a WOMAN will be applauded, and when a woman responds in the EXACT SAME WAY as a man, she will be belittled and, yet again, run out of the thread.

If your gona continue making accusations like you have throughout the entire thread at least back it up with some evidence and not generalized comments

liah

nuxxx wrote: »

If your gona continue making accusations like you have throughout the entire thread at least back it up with some evidence and not generalized comments

Dear lord.

I was clarifying a post I made earlier that Fitzwhatever had cherrypicked from. There are no generalizations in that post. And I have provided evidence.

If you're not going to add anything productive and instead nitpick and be pedantic, just exit the thread and do it elsewhere please.

Dravokivich

liah wrote: »

If it's already in place why are so many people complaining?

From my experience working in a complaints dept the last 2.5 years, when you've enough people shouting, all you hear is the shouting and them expecting something to be done the moment they stop. If it's not done they commence shouting.

As mentioned several times through out this thread, there is a "report the post feature." And then acknowledge that action is not going to be taken immediately.

Mods cannot see everything and you should acept and give them room in regards to that also. There have been many side comments through the varous threads that refer to AH being sexist that lead me to believe the posts are not being reported.

If the posts are being reported and not actioned on, the issue isn't "AH is Sexist," the issue then is with the level of moderation over abusive posts.

liah

Dravokivich wrote: »

From my experience working in a complaints dept the last 2.5 years, when you've enough people shouting, all you hear is the shouting and them expecting something to be done the moment they stop. If it's not done they commence shouting.

As mentioned several times through out this thread, there is a "report the post feature." And then acknowledge that action is not going to be taken immediately.

Mods cannot see everything and you should acept and give them room in regards to that also. There have been many side comments through the varous threads that refer to AH being sexist that lead me to believe the posts are not being reported.

If the posts are being reported and not actioned on, the issue isn't "AH is Sexist," the issue then is with the level of moderation over abusive posts.

And as ALSO mentioned several times in the thread by not just me, but other women, THEY WILL BE USING THE REPORT FUNCTION. Why keep repeating yourself? We get it, and it's not helping.

I don't know about the rest of the women but I'm getting really sick of people responding without having actually read anything, I've answered the same stuff so many times. No wonder I'm narky.

Dr. Zeus

I would like it noted as a male (though some of you question that:D) that I support Liah and other posters who feel AH is sexist/abusive towards women at times.

Some of my issue with AH is that women no matter what the context are often referred to a whores/bitches/slags etc. The thread might be about a woman who won a nobel prize and it's reduced to "she's an ugly whore/bitch/slag/I'd do her/wouldn't/bet she likes it up the ass".

I don't see how these comments are funny or clever. If a female poster complains they are dished out the same treatment. Obviously they are fat/ugly/frigid etc/

And it just goes on and on.....

Banned Account

liah wrote: »

Dear lord.

I was clarifying a post I made earlier that Fitzwhatever had cherrypicked from. There are no generalizations in that post. And I have provided evidence.

If you're not going to add anything productive and instead nitpick and be pedantic, just exit the thread and do it elsewhere please.

Fitzcaraldo - at least do me the courtesy of getting my name correct if ou'd like to have a constructive dialogue - I haven't called you "whatsherface" - I doubt if you'd accept it if I did.

I did not cherrypick your post - I quoted it fully and unabridged - it's there for you to check. What I did do was hone in on the logic that the crux of your argument is that male posters respond to blanket sexist remarks in a way which female posters do not.

It is not a valid argument to say that because we are better able (due to mnumbers) or better prepared to call someone up on a sexist comment we are de facto in the wrong.

To my mind, reading back through the thread, theings began to get heated when blanket comments were put down about men. In fact, if I recall correctly, you took issue to the fact that some posters weren't prepared to accept the fact that a woman is entitled to wear and look how she wishes without others feeling they are right to categorise her.

Can you recall this thread a while back? It just seems to me that there is a genuine anger there which gets re-directed from time to time and I don't thinks it's a sound basis for an argument which will affect a large number of generally happy and sensible users.

_feedback_

I was the first one to mention the whole generalising men thing, so please don't have a go a liah over it as this will get completely dragged off the point.

I reacted to a "men are bastards" type remark exactly how liah describes. Give it a rest with the nitpicking.


and for the love of christ - I don't speak for all men here either!

Dravokivich

liah wrote: »

And as ALSO mentioned several times in the thread by not just me, but other women, THEY WILL BE USING THE REPORT FUNCTION. Why keep repeating yourself? We get it, and it's not helping.

I don't know about the rest of the women but I'm getting really sick of people responding without having actually read anything, I've answered the same stuff so many times. No wonder I'm narky.

Right...

I have read through this Thread and all I'm seeing is people complainging about Sexism. The issue here isn't with the level of sexism in AH, it's the level of abuse.

Which is being put forward as a problem by the Mods and open for discussion here -> http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056026459

coffee_cake

I'm a bit torn on this

I do think it can be a bit of a boys club
But I also know I personally don't report posts like I would in the motors forum for example, I know they clamp down on that cr@p there.
But then at the same time it's probably a more serious forum than AH anyway.
I duno
I can't imagine everyone is really reporting posts as they should, and I think the mods seem to be very understanding now in their response to this so maybe any previous issues with reporting posts won't happen again.

Other than that I don't think anything can be done beyond telling people in general "stop being thick"
Not sure anything more should be done either tbh

liah

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Fitzcaraldo - at least do me the courtesy of getting my name correct if ou'd like to have a constructive dialogue - I haven't called you "whatsherface" - I doubt if you'd accept it if I did.

I did not cherrypick your post - I quoted it fully and unabridged - it's there for you to check. What I did do was hone in on the logic that the crux of your argument is that male posters respond to blanket sexist remarks in a way which female posters do not.

It is not a valid argument to say that because we are better able (due to mnumbers) or better prepared to call someone up on a sexist comment we are de facto in the wrong.

To my mind, reading back through the thread, theings began to get heated when blanket comments were put down about men. In fact, if I recall correctly, you took issue to the fact that some posters weren't prepared to accept the fact that a woman is entitled to wear and look how she wishes without others feeling they are right to categorise her.

Can you recall this thread a while back? It just seems to me that there is a genuine anger there which gets re-directed from time to time and I don't thinks it's a sound basis for an argument which will affect a large number of generally happy and sensible users.

Read the post again. A lot. Til it finally sinks in. You still haven't got it, or at least not all of it; only the bits that suit you, go figure.

And the whatshisface bit was because I honestly couldn't think of the rest of your name at the time of writing.

Also, please don't attempt to psychoanalyze me. That post is completely irrelevant and was posted under different circumstances that really don't have an awful lot to do with this. It's a shame some girls pander to the lads and make it worse for the rest of us though, I'll definitely stand by that, as it means some men (like the ones in that thread) choose their opinions over the rest of us because it suits them better.

Nevyn

The difference between abuse and sexits remakrs sexist it abuse is that it targets the person to belittle them using thier gender.

Example A

Female poster posts in a thread in ah about the recession.

Male poster responds, ah sure what would you know, your just a ucd student go back to the arts block.

Example B

Female poster posts in a thread in ah about the recession.

Male poster responds, ah sure what woudl you know your just a woman go back into the kitchen.

And then the posts about go back to the ktichen are called out the female poster gets called a feminazi.

Stupid sexist remarks are stupid and people who use them are lazy imho.
I see no reason why such sexist remarks can't be stamped out like Yore Ma was.

Herbal Deity

bluewolf wrote: »

I do think it can be a bit of a boys club
But I also know I personally don't report posts like I would in the motors forum for example, I know they clamp down on that cr@p there.
But then at the same time it's probably a more serious forum than AH anyway.
I duno

There's a problem in that there is a split between people who think that the carry on in AH is disgustingly immature and idiotic, and people who love the carefree, anarchic lolzfest that would be completely inappropriate outside of the internet.

And I don't even think there's a unanimous view on this issue amongst the admins or mods.

liah

Thaedydal wrote: »

The difference between abuse and sexits remakrs sexist it abuse is that it targets the person to belittle them using thier gender.

Example A

Female poster posts in a thread in ah about the recession.

Male poster responds, ah sure what would you know, your just a ucd student go back to the arts block.

Example B

Female poster posts in a thread in ah about the recession.

Male poster responds, ah sure what woudl you know your just a woman go back into the kitchen.

And then the posts about go back to the ktichen are called out the female poster gets called a feminazi.

Stupid sexist remarks are stupid and people who use them are lazy imho.
I see no reason why such sexist remarks can't be stamped out like Yore Ma was.

I don't think it's fair to put a ban on all jokes, tbh. Most of them are all meant in good fun.

I do think it's fair that more action be taken on posts that are clearly belittling a genuine poster on the basis of their gender. If the person's made a real, non-joke, non-offensive, legit post and they're met with repeated belittling and demeaning on the basis of being a female (PARTICULARLY if a male posts something similar and gets responded to genuinely), then it needs to be taken care of.

_feedback_

Thaedydal wrote: »

The difference between abuse and sexits remakrs sexist it abuse is that it targets the person to belittle them using thier gender.

Example A

Female poster posts in a thread in ah about the recession.

Male poster responds, ah sure what would you know, your just a ucd student go back to the arts block.

Example B

Female poster posts in a thread in ah about the recession.

Male poster responds, ah sure what woudl you know your just a woman go back into the kitchen.

And then the posts about go back to the ktichen are called out the female poster gets called a feminazi.

Stupid sexist remarks are stupid and people who use them are lazy imho.
I see no reason why such sexist remarks can't be stamped out like Yore Ma was.

I get what you mean Thaedydal, but the "get back in the kitchen" thing is a bad example, as most have pointed out, it's just a joke and not deemed offensive by most.

Which, goes back to the "one persons insult is the next persons joke" scenario.

Which in turn, goes back to using the report button, so the mods can see what people find offensive and what people don't.

metrovelvet

I'm sorry but if you told an African American to go and "get back to your chores" ''Or dont you have some chains to rattle?" Jesus Christ you would be rightly banned.

I don't find those kitchen jokes funny.

Banned Account

liah wrote: »

Read the post again. A lot. Til it finally sinks in. You still haven't got it, or at least not all of it; only the bits that suit you, go figure.

And the whatshisface bit was because I honestly couldn't think of the rest of your name at the time of writing.

Also, please don't attempt to psychoanalyze me. That post is completely irrelevant and was posted under different circumstances that really don't have an awful lot to do with this. It's a shame some girls pander to the lads and make it worse for the rest of us though, I'll definitely stand by that, as it means some men (like the ones in that thread) choose their opinions over the rest of us because it suits them better.

I have read and re-read the post and I do understand it. You are stating that its unfair because when a male poster makes a sexist comment other male posters high five him and find it funny and when a female poster does the same other female posters don't high five them. This is an issue to take up with other female posters really not with the male posters.

Some of the female posters who take offence do call others out on this as do the male posters so this part of the argument is null and void really.

The other post I have highlighted is very relevant to the issue at hand - in the recent thread - you got irate because male posters were judging a woman according to how she presented herself - if you re-read your argument, you'll note that you were saying that men have no right to act in a certain way because of how a woman chooses to present herself.

In the older thread, you decided to castigate a female poster for the way in which she presented herself stating that she should expect men to act a certain way accordingly - you then went on to challenge male posters for telling you that how she chose to present herself was nothing to do with you.

I'm not qualified to psycho-analyze anyone but it seems to me that you can be very eager to turn threads which you disapprove of into gender issues. That is the reason why the post is relevant.

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

Stupid sexist remarks are stupid and people who use them are lazy imho.
I see no reason why such sexist remarks can't be stamped out like Yore Ma was.

OK I agree FWIW, but and its a big but, "yore ma" is an easy one to stamp out, sexist is a lot less so and a much greyer area. One man/woman's sexist is another man/womans joke or "meh". Where does the community draw that line? Abuse, using gender as a weapon on the other hand is far easier and that should be the focus at first IMHO. And to be fair to the AH mods for the most part it is, if reported.

Hank Scorpio

liah wrote: »

Dear lord.

I was clarifying a post I made earlier that Fitzwhatever had cherrypicked from. There are no generalizations in that post. And I have provided evidence.

If you're not going to add anything productive and instead nitpick and be pedantic, just exit the thread and do it elsewhere please.

Calm down, your not one to tell me what I can and cannot say, and your also not in a position to tell me to exit the thread.

Since when do I need to speak productively about the topic you created. I think the majority of what your trying to say is coming across extremely generalized, badly written and repetitive.

Report posts you find offensive, same goes for threads. Just because YOU find something offensive does NOT mean the majority of other posters do.

What do you expect to achieve from starting a thread like this, honestly?

pickarooney

metrovelvet wrote: »

How many times have people complained about this in AH and look, its still happening. Nothing is done about it, so what's the point. Boards wants to keep it a misogynistic cess pool so fine. It draws in popularity which probably draws in more advertising revenue for them so what the hell do they care?

But there is no point in denying that sexism is tolerated in AH, heck its nearly defined by it.

neuro-praxis wrote:

Yes. Every offensive comment ever made is merely the product of the over-active and over-sensitive imagination of the man-hating woman it was directed at. Good one.

To be honest, this kind of bad faith hyperbole gets in the way of the actual debate and adds nothing positive to the thread.

@Thaed - I assume if an exact set of banned phrases alongthe lines of 'get back in the kitchen' were banned, the WUMs would simply adopt another set. One could hope that forcing them to think that extra half-second might trigger some sort of 'hey, wait, I''m being a total cock' reflex but I'm pessimistic on that score.

Adam

liah wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to put a ban on all jokes, tbh. Most of them are all meant in good fun.

I do think it's fair that more action be taken on posts that are clearly belittling a genuine poster on the basis of their gender. If the person's made a real, non-joke, non-offensive, legit post and they're met with repeated belittling and demeaning on the basis of being a female (PARTICULARLY if a male posts something similar and gets responded to genuinely), then it needs to be taken care of.

and it will be, as everyone has agreed it should, but only if the post is reported.

liah

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I have read and re-read the post and I do understand it. You are stating that its unfair because when a male poster makes a sexist comment other male posters high five him and find it funny and when a female poster does the same other female posters don't high five them. This is an issue to take up with other female posters really not with the male posters.

Some of the female posters who take offence do call others out on this as do the male posters so this part of the argument is null and void really.

The other post I have highlighted is very relevant to the issue at hand - in the recent thread - you got irate because male posters were judging a woman according to how she presented herself - if you re-read your argument, you'll note that you were saying that men have no right to act in a certain way because of how a woman chooses to present herself.

In the older thread, you decided to castigate a female poster for the way in which she presented herself stating that she should expect men to act a certain way accordingly - you then went on to challenge male posters for telling you that how she chose to present herself was nothing to do with you.

I'm not qualified to psycho-analyze anyone but it seems to me that you can be very eager to turn threads which you disapprove of into gender issues. That is the reason why the post is relevant.

Oh yes, clearly that's what this is about. Clearly it's all about me and how I feel and I'm the problem and there's absolutely no one else who, despite going through completely different life experiences, happen to feel the same way on this topic.

I'm defending women's rights to have genuine opinions on topics without being degraded, demeaned, or belittled.

In the reporter thread, I was arguing that the girl's allowed to wear what she wants. If you actually had READ THE THREAD, I'd equally chastised the girl for acting the maggot and agreed when men had said so. But because the topic was from the woman's point of view, it was turned into a general discussion.

In the twit thread, the girl was blatantly trolling for attention, pandering to the sexist jokes, and pretty much acting the maggot, and I didn't stand for it.

Interestingly, because I did so, the men got pissed and called me jealous, when that had very very little to do with it. That's kind of my point.

Either way it's still irrelevant to the discussion and you're doing nothing but detracting from it. Just accept that maybe, sometimes, women are allowed to get offended about stuff too, and maybe, just maybe, they might just actually be right in feeling how they do.

I never turn threads into gender issues unless they are relating directly to gender.

Herbal Deity

liah wrote: »

acting the maggot

Is this not more or less the whole point of AH though?

Like, what exactly AH is and what it isn't is an important issue here IMO.

liah

nuxxx wrote: »

Calm down, your not one to tell me what I can and cannot say, and your also not in a position to tell me to exit the thread.

Since when do I need to speak productively about the topic you created. I think the majority of what your trying to say is coming across extremely generalized, badly written and repetitive.

Report posts you find offensive, same goes for threads. Just because YOU find something offensive does NOT mean the majority of other posters do.

What do you expect to achieve from starting a thread like this, honestly?

If you want to know why it's so repetitive is because people REFUSE to read the original posts to update themselves and keep asking of me the exact same questions over and over. I've even answered this over and over.

In fact, I've answered everything you've written there multiple times.

I've already covered the reporting issue on more than one occasion.

I'm asking mods to take it more seriously, and we've all said we'll definitely be reporting posts, so I am STILL not seeing (as stated in my last couple posts on reporting) WHY you guys feel the need to continue to bring it up.

Banned Account

liah wrote: »

Oh yes, clearly that's what this is about. Clearly it's all about me and how I feel and I'm the problem and there's absolutely no one else who, despite going through completely different life experiences, happen to feel the same way on this topic.

I'm defending women's rights to have genuine opinions on topics without being degraded, demeaned, or belittled.

In the reporter thread, I was arguing that the girl's allowed to wear what she wants. If you actually had READ THE THREAD, I'd equally chastised the girl for acting the maggot and agreed when men had said so. But because the topic was from the woman's point of view, it was turned into a general discussion.

In the twit thread, the girl was blatantly trolling for attention, pandering to the sexist jokes, and pretty much acting the maggot, and I didn't stand for it.

Interestingly, because I did so, the men got pissed and called me jealous, when that had very very little to do with it. That's kind of my point.

Either way it's still irrelevant to the discussion and you're doing nothing but detracting from it. Just accept that maybe, sometimes, women are allowed to get offended about stuff too, and maybe, just maybe, they might just actually be right in feeling how they do.

I never turn threads into gender issues unless they are relating directly to gender.

I note the common denominator here is "your" viewpoint. Others have differing opinions - welcome to discussion fora.

Adam

liah wrote: »

I'm asking mods to take it more seriously, and we've all said we'll definitely be reporting posts, so I am STILL not seeing (as stated in my last couple posts on reporting) WHY you guys feel the need to continue to bring it up.

because, contrary to your beliefs it seems, other people have their own opinions and if nobody spoke up on their opinion of the situation, we'd only have one person's rules to live by, which would be yours in this case.

and the reason i think people keep asking you why you started the thread is because you seem so quick to accept that the solution is simply to report threads, but if you knew that already then what's the thread for???

you call out the woman for posting in AH about her boob job for attention, well the same can be said for you and this thread, considering you're admittedly aware that reporting posts more actively is the necessary requirement.

Hank Scorpio

liah wrote: »

If you want to know why it's so repetitive is because people REFUSE to read the original posts to update themselves and keep asking of me the exact same questions over and over. I've even answered this over and over.

In fact, I've answered everything you've written there multiple times.

I've already covered the reporting issue on more than one occasion.

I'm asking mods to take it more seriously, and we've all said we'll definitely be reporting posts, so I am STILL not seeing (as stated in my last couple posts on reporting) WHY you guys feel the need to continue to bring it up.

Whos we?

Your mistake is creating a thread on behalf of other people, even though you dont know who these other people are.

Didnt you know there was a report button for posts in the first place?

Insect Overlord

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

liah

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I note the common denominator here is "your" viewpoint. Others have differing opinions - welcome to discussion fora.

Yup, they certainly do, but this is obviously an issue for more than just me, so why are you making a point of singling me out? I'm not the only one, and for that simple fact alone, that there are many women here giving their completely valid opinions who are being met with derision and not even having their posts read properly, who are becoming the butt of jokes both in this thread and in AH for standing up for themselves, and who just plain aren't being listened to.

It's insulting, very insulting, to see what the response to this has been. Other than from the mods, of course. But some of the male posters just refuse to step into our shoes for awhile and give us a little respect, they can't even be mature enough to just keep their noses out of it if they've nothing to contribute and have to make their immature jokes knowing full well it'll get under our skin.

Just because it may not be an issue for YOU doesn't mean it's not an issue for a significant amount of people and definitely doesn't mean you get the right to disrespect it.

It wasn't even my idea to move it to Feedback, it was suggested in the original thread to do so. And I've explained the many reasons why I moved it here.

Mods need to be a little more aware, even without the reporting, and posters need to be aware that there's a line that can be crossed. That's why it exists.

liah

nuxxx wrote: »

Whos we?

Your mistake is creating a thread on behalf of other people, even though you dont know who these other people are.

Didnt you know there was a report button for posts in the first place?

"We" are the other girls who explicitly stated in the original thread and here (which you claim to have read) that they will be reporting posts, and I was one of them. Hence, "we." Don't think that's too big of a stretch. I've also explained many times why I had not bothered reporting until now.

I didn't create a thread on behalf of everyone, I explicitly stated in the OP that I wasn't speaking for everyone. Again, you claim to have read the threads, but your posts indicate otherwise.

Procasinator

Thaedydal wrote: »

That is still attacking the poster and not the context of their posts, and what does any of that have to do with the topic of had, the persistent and pervasive comment containing casual sexism to tear down posters, stop discussion and derail threads which permeate the forum.

Excuse me Thaedydal, but have you read the series of posts in question? Are we having this discussion by ignoring the harassment thread completely, even though it is undoubtely related to this thread.

Are we only allowed to reference the thread if it supports a particular viewpoint?

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here.

To quote liah again:

It's funny, any time I've made an off the cuff remark about men without using "some men" I've always been immediately called out for it. Not taken action against, I mean, but the men get incredibly pissed off and go mad at me and certainly don't "just ignore it" or see it as a joke.

I know she said "any time", but there is no doubt she is at least partially referring to a recent discussion in the sexual harassment thread as it is that thread that ignited this whole discussion.

That thread is highly relevant to this discussion, and her opinion on how she was treated when she made generalisations is also relevant.

I never attacked the poster, and I did attack the content of her posts. I thought he logic was flawed, so I expressed why I thought that.

My point is that I don't believe the members correcting her in a polite manner was sexism in any form, and I resent being told that I acted sexist or attacked anyone.