AH & Perceived Sexism

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

Please link to examples of this, if you have seen any, if you haven't the stop trolling.

It is not your position in this thread to accuse people of trolling, although you do seem to make a habit of it in Feedback.

I agree with that poster 100% as it goes.

There are the usual faces complaining in this thread and the one in AH, that After Hours is a forum where misogyny is accepted and is going unpunished, you being one of them.

It is completely untrue.

I have lost count of the amount of times users have been banned from AH and the reason given was: misogyny. So it does not go unpunished and has and is being acted on.

I have been posting on After Hours regularly for a couple of years now and yourself and few other posters frequently trot out these accusations with little or nothing to back them up, other than the posters who repeat boring sexist jokes in an effort to thanks whore, but there is nothing remotely misogynistic about that, it's sexist at a push.

However, 'sexist' does not equate 'misogyny'.

When the sexual divide is taken into account, I consider the sexist remarks in AH to be an issue on both sides. I have just as regularly been involved in threads where men were been spoken about in a disgraceful way and the female users thought it was hilarious.

There have been threads for instance were men have complained about how rude woman have become in society and how they can just basically tell a guy to go fuck himself, right to his face and find it funny.

This is usually followed by woman telling these guys that they are all just bitter and sexually frustrated cause they can't get laid or "man up" etc etc.

Snide sexist remarks are not just limited to the male users on AH, female users can hold their own are will be just as sexist when it suits the, in even more so in fact.

The threads were some women labeled men who looked at women's breasts as all just "sleazy perverts" was one such thread and there have been many others.

Dravokivich

Feeona wrote: »

I think that's the problem. It's specifically degrading to women, not 'people'. Why not bring it up in BGRH instead? After all, women orientated threads in AH are often met with cries of 'bring it to tLL', as evidenced by the thread about period cramps.

The first example provided. Would then be based on what you'd consider offensive and bad taste. Was there the same sentiment over FÁS Girl?

But that would be a tLL thing, just as threads about sports would be directed towards their various forums.

_feedback_

cherub rock wrote: »

Look I'm sick of that maybe bull****. Someone equated AH to a pub earlier and said if the same group of wankbags keep harrassing the local women and stirring up **** for fun the security will kick them out. Logic here is that well, maybe the women should leave the pub. **** that!

That was me that referenced the pub. . . and that is 100% not what I meant. You need to go back and read it again before losing the cool.

cherub rock wrote: »

Where did I mention a girl having anyhting to do with it?

You quoted the PMs you got from the mod(s) and said PMs like that are why girls are put off reporting posts. You didn't get those PMs because you are a girl, you got them because you went around willy-nilly reporting 30 posts just to make a point.

cherub rock wrote: »

I was PMd that "No one else took offence to the posts" therefore I just disagreed with it it and it didn't warrant valid complaint. Was told to think before I report and to only report personal abuse. "Otherwise it prevents us catching the ones they should be dealing with." Excuse given: AH has a different style of posting to any other forum on boards.

Says it all really. This is why girls are put off reporting posts.

coffee_cake

Procasinator wrote: »

I've quoted these two sexual comments, because, I only think that sexual harassment thread was created for sexual comments, as the OP from the begggining was one of the people doing it.

To quote the OP:



Now I know we are talking about the general threads AH in this feedback forum, but I refer to this thread a lot as I believe it was the straw that broke the camels back to spark this conversation.

So, for instance, if the OP meant the thread to be about how hot the girl was, are comments like these not allowed?

Should AH not have threads about how good looking or attractive people are?

Just FYI the "omg could they get any tighter" was a direct quote from the video, which the guy said in a funny tone of voice

stovelid

The problem I have when I see Cherub Rock's list of jokes is that I see the full bathtub and baby precariously balanced over the drain.

As with other joke subjects, it is turning around to what I don't want to see in AH as opposed to what is genuinely offensive to the majority of posters.

A lot of the jokes listed by Cherub Rock can be funny sometimes, but as with everything, it's all to do with timing, context and intent. And if the intention is light-hearted or to undermine or harass somebody.

A few people have made the point very eloquently so far about the baby and the bathwater and that would be my fear. That we pursue a scorched earth policy regarding any kind of sexist jokes (or indeed any kind of jokes that lampoon others) and arrive at some decision based on the mere utterance of such jokes instead of a) identifying when the jokes (as with the thanks system and other things) are being used with an uncivil agenda and b) nailing any instances of misogynistic attacks (as in the sexual harassment thread) which - as noted - appear breaches of the charter anyway: attacking the poster, trolling; insults etc.

Feeona

Dravokivich wrote: »

The first example provided. Would then be based on what you'd consider offensive and bad taste. Was there the same sentiment over FÁS Girl?

But that would be a tLL thing, just as threads about sports would be directed towards their various forums.

I think threads about 'hot women' in AH are tiresome and juvenile full stop. Because you will find in the exact same forum a thread about fake tan oompa loompas, a thread about how fat Mary Harney is because she doens't take care of herself, a thread about stuck up b*tches in pubs rejecting advances/accepting a drink/being a slut/being a prude. Any attempt by women to question some posters' stances is met with nasty derision.

I think the double standards you'd find in AH are a bad joke overall to be honest!

Jazzy

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nope, there is once of humour and then there is the derailing of dicusion with repeated not funny sexist remarks be they targeted at one poster or not, but usually as cherb's rocks post they are used to target a poster and have a go.

but they are used as humour. when well placed, they are funny. winters comment at the start, although red carded, was funny. heres why: serious thread with serious connotations and what is probably going to be the issue for the next few days and bam! first post is the exact thing, like right on the nose, about what the discussion will be about.
and you basically want to take away the ability to do that because it annoys you and you find it sexist. do you really think that winters is sexist? do you really think he wants all women to be locked in the kitchen? its just your agenda and one you love banging on about for whatever reason. the world and its granny knows about the wrongs of racism and the like but there are still racists out there... because stupid people will always exist. so whats say we just round up all the stupid comments on AH about everything ever and 'stamp them out'.. im sure it would be a fantastic forum then and would come up with the formula for the reasons behind life.
personally, i think you just dont like it. you never have and now that this thread has appeared its a chance to get what you want and tell us all what is/isnt funny. i know damn well what sexism is and i know damn well what is or isnt funny. we dont need people like you ramming personal vendettas against society down our throats

Banned Account

g'em wrote: »

That doesn't mean she's expecting everyone to agree with her, simply that she's afforded the same respect that one would anywhere else on the site. That's a reasonable request don't you think?

Being honest with you, no I don't agree for the pure reason that it is AH - it is not anywhere else on the site - I have posted my opinion on numerous occassions and have been prone to slags and jibes for them - but I know that when I post it I am likely to get that - it's the terms of reference. What you're saying is akin to going to the thunderdome and then getting annoyed when someone insults you despite the fact that you know what's likely to happen.

Of course I agree that we all have the right not to feel threatened, if someone does so (and personally, having re-read i see nothing threatening about any posts) let them report it. If I want a serious discussion where I don't want purile nonsense muddying the waters I'll go to politics or the Irish economy forum where I know the standard to expect.

But almost immediately she was met with a male poster who not only didn't agree, but made an abusive remark directed at her. That's the issue here, that's what (as I read it) the OP was speaking about. It's not the jokes per se, it's the direct attacks made when posters speak up. In that particular instance, I absolutely agree.

Did the poster in question report the post? If so it would have been dealt with - if not it was either one of two things:

1) She took no offence at it as it was AH afterall
2) She was too frightened to report it

The latter is a serious issue but i really doubt that this is the case
The former is more likely which would confirm my suspicions that this has been blown out of proportion and hi-jacked to some extent

[QUOTE}Things not going your way and things turning into personal attacks are two different things. I believe it was the latter that was what broke the straw and let to this thread.[/QUOTE]

I agree but only if the recipient reported it or deemed it a personal attack - not if it was taken as a standard purile comment.

--Kaiser--

OutlawPete wrote: »

Who was this user?

The OP of this thread ironically.

You see, when it comes to stupid sexist nonsense being posted in After Hours, women are not just victims of it - but are in fact, also contributors of it.

LOL.

I'm still relishing the delicious irony that the originator of this thread accused AH of being sexist after herself making a very sexist comment about men (despite furious back-peddaling by herself).

AH is no more casually sexist than it casually makes fun of pretty much all kinds of everything.

Procasinator

bluewolf wrote: »

Just FYI the "omg could they get any tighter" was a direct quote from the video, which the guy said in a funny tone of voice

I'm aware. The OP however said themselves "OMG what a babe".

He was also the one soon after to claim "she" [reporter] is HOT, "you" [Dudess] are NOT which deserved an infraction.

The first, however, didn't: unless it policy not to have physical evaluations or make sexual comments about others in AH.

Insect Overlord

Jazzy wrote: »

personally, i think you just dont like it. you never have and now that this thread has appeared its a chance to get what you want and tell us all what is/isnt funny. i know damn well what sexism is and i know damn well what is or isnt funny. we dont need people like you ramming personal vendettas against society down our throats

Congrats Jazzy for, ironically, proving the original point of this thread.
Bravo, sir...

coffee_cake

Procasinator wrote: »

I'm aware. The OP however said themselves "OMG what a babe".

He was also the one soon after to claim "she" [reporter] is HOT, "you" [Dudess] are NOT which deserved an infraction.

The first, however, didn't: unless it policy not to have physical evaluations or make sexual comments about others in AH.

Oh right, I thought you were quoting two separate comments as an example and I just wanted to say one wasn't an example!
fair enough carry on:p

Catari Jaguar

elviscostello wrote: »

That was me that referenced the pub. . . and that is 100% not what I meant. You need to go back and read it again before losing the cool.




You quoted the PMs you got from the mod(s) and said PMs like that are why girls are put off reporting posts. You didn't get those PMs because you are a girl, you got them because you went around willy-nilly reporting 30 posts just to make a point.

Arggh! Initially the girls were told "what misoginy? You never report any". We said, I'm pretty sure that it's all just jokes and will be dismissed because jokes against wimminz isn't against the charter.

So they said no, no! report please - make our job easier. Certain lads in there demanded proof and exact quotes of these alleged misogynistic posts.

Right about then there happened to be a TON of fall out from the thread just highlighting how women and their grievances are accepted here. Also a bunch of **** in the sexual harrasment thread. Apparently "no one complained"

I complained and was shot down. And if there are 100 posts that need to be reported I'll do it. I listed some of these quotes and some poster decides to write as an absoulte final statement

Last thing here: The main outcome of this has been, try to report posts to help the mods out. Then this post appears.

After hundreds and hundreds of posts – can I respectfully ask – did you report those posts?

*head explodes*

Herbal Deity

OutlawPete wrote: »

One After Hours thread which I found disgusting was the 'Woman Rapes Ten Men' thread.

Some comments from a woman on that thread:

When this user received criticism for her comments, her response was:

Who was this user?

The OP of this thread ironically.

Wow.

I don't think that this necessarily takes away from all of liah's points on this thread. But Christ, that is such blatant hypocrisy.

Banned Account

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

LOL.

I'm still relishing the delicious irony that the originator of this thread accused AH of being sexist after herself making a very sexist comment about men (despite furious back-peddaling by herself).

AH is no more casually sexist than it casually makes fun of pretty much all kinds of everything.

And this was my point bringing up the boob job thread also - it seems to me that the issue isn't the type of comment - as the OP makes them herself, it's the fact that the comments aren't recieved to the posters liking that causes the issue - which is, quite frankly - rubbish.

liah

OutlawPete wrote: »

It is not your position in this thread to accuse people of trolling, although you do seem to make a habit of it in Feedback.

I agree with that poster 100% as it goes.

There are the usual faces complaining in this thread and the one in AH, that After Hours is a forum where misogyny is accepted and is going unpunished, you being one of them.

It is completely untrue.

I have lost count of the amount of times users have been banned from AH and the reason given was: misogyny. So it does not go unpunished and has and is being acted on.

I have been posting on After Hours regularly for a couple of years now and yourself and few other posters frequently trot out these accusations with little or nothing to back them up, other than the posters who repeat boring sexist jokes in an effort to thanks whore, but there is nothing remotely misogynistic about that, it's sexist at a push.

However, 'sexist' does not equate 'misogyny'.

When the sexual divide is taken into account, I consider the sexist remarks in AH to be an issue on both sides. I have just as regularly been involved in threads where men were been spoken about in a disgraceful way and the female users thought it was hilarious.

There have been threads for instance were men have complained about how rude woman have become in society and how they can just basically tell a guy to go fuck himself, right to his face and find it funny.

This is usually followed by woman telling these guys that they are all just bitter and sexually frustrated cause they can't get laid or "man up" etc etc.

Snide sexist remarks are not just limited to the male users on AH, female users can hold their own are will be just as sexist when it suits the, in even more so in fact.

The threads were some women labeled men who looked at women's breasts as all just "sleazy perverts" was one such thread and there have been many others.

One After Hours thread which I found disgusting was the 'Woman Rapes Ten Men' thread.

Some comments from a woman on that thread:

When this user received criticism for her comments, her response was:

Who was this user?

The OP of this thread ironically.

You see, when it comes to stupid sexist nonsense being posted in After Hours, women are not just victims of it - but are in fact, also contributors of it.

But where did I throw out rude names and blatant gender-related insults?

Regardless of whether or not you agree with my OPINION, those quotes you posted still did not attack any posters unlike a lot of remarks we're talking about. I don't think it's a fair comparison.

Also, I don't see the point of dredging up old posts as people's opinions change and develop over time. You have no idea what my opinion on that is now.

Nevyn

Feeona wrote: »

I think that's the problem. That specific thread was degrading to women, not 'people'. Why not bring it up in BGRH instead? After all, women orientated threads in AH are often met with cries of 'bring it to tLL', as evidenced by the thread about period cramps.

Excuse me thread and posts which are degrading to women are not welcome in BGRH.

Procasinator

Feeona wrote: »

I think threads about 'hot women' in AH are tiresome and juvenile full stop. Because you will find in the exact same forum a thread about fake tan oompa loompas, a thread about how fat Mary Harney is because she doens't take care of herself, a thread about stuck up b*tches in pubs rejecting advances/accepting a drink/being a slut/being a prude. Any attempt by women to question some posters' stances is met with nasty derision.

I think the double standards you'd find in AH are a bad joke overall to be honest!

Yes, but in any community you are likely to have large groups with similar mindset. For instance, are large percentage of people are critical of religion in AH and accepting of marijuana. If AH can seem like a boy club, it's probably because there are a much larger number of "boys".

If the owners of the site want to mold AH in a different shape, they need to police it to make it that way. If someone doesn't like a community, they can say why and hope to help change it, failing that the only thing to do is stomach it, or they can, as often stated by an acronym in AH, GTFO (no offence meant).

Nevyn

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Wow.

I don't think that this necessarily takes away from all of liah's points on this thread. But Christ, that is such blatant hypocrisy.

So it's back to witchhunting the person who started the thread.:rolleyes:

Catari Jaguar

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

LOL.

I'm still relishing the delicious irony that the originator of this thread accused AH of being sexist after herself making a very sexist comment about men (despite furious back-peddaling by herself).

AH is no more casually sexist than it casually makes fun of pretty much all kinds of everything.

The glee some posters here are taking about Liah starting this thread and the abuse directed at her is a ****ing joke. Dr. Zeus (a MALE) started the "Why is AH so misogynistic?" thread. Liah (after taking mod advice) started this feed back and even titled it "PERCEIVED sexism in AH".

Just goes to show how the girls are treated if they speak back. This is the 1950s ffs.

Dravokivich

Feeona wrote: »

I think threads about 'hot women' in AH are tiresome and juvenile full stop.

I suppose you think all boys are disgusting and just want to get into your knickers too?

Feeona wrote: »

Because you will find in the exact same forum a thread about fake tan oompa loompas, a thread about how fat Mary Harney is because she doens't take care of herself, a thread about stuck up b*tches in pubs rejecting advances/accepting a drink/being a slut/being a prude.

fake tan oompa loompas <- Joking about the way some women feel the need to over indulge in fake tan, women join in with this as much as men and it's all generalisations. I've not seen any direct abuse from 1 poster in AH to another Poster in AH.

a thread about how fat Mary Harney is <- if you were a regular on AH you'd know this was more of a frivolous meme that was never intended to be taken seriously more so then an objectional view point amongst AH posters. You would also be aware that the Mods are currently hosting discussions with AH posters in regards to bring thigns forward in regards to what's accepted and what's too far...

a thread about stuck up b*tches in pubs... <- When you see the title referring to something like that, it's usually being posted by someone who's come home late at night / early in the morning, still drink or terribly hung over and not entirelly aware of what they are typing up. When ever crap gets flung around in those topics they do get stamped out.

Feeona wrote: »

Any attempt by women to question some posters' stances is met with nasty derision.

I think the double standards you'd find in AH are a bad joke overall to be honest!

This would be abuse... There is nothing set in stone anywhere saying that AH does not condone abuse, unless aimed towards a woman.

The Charter even specifically states: Blatant sexism is not tolerated. as well as No personal abuse

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

So it's back to witchhunting the person who started the thread.:rolleyes:

How is it "witch hunting"?

In fact, I specifically said in the post you quoted that the fact that she seems hypocritical does not take away from her points.

It was just a remark.

Nevyn

Jazzy wrote: »

personally, i think you just dont like it. you never have and now that this thread has appeared its a chance to get what you want and tell us all what is/isnt funny. i know damn well what sexism is and i know damn well what is or isnt funny. we dont need people like you ramming personal vendettas against society down our throats

I do like AH other wise I would not post there.

IF you don't like my posts, put me on ignore.

Nevyn

Herbal Deity wrote: »

How is it "witch hunting"?

In fact, I specifically said in the post you quoted that the fact that she seems hypocritical does not take away from her points.

It was just a remark.

They took the time and go research her posts and not just in that they are looking for away to discredit her personally to discredit her position on this optic.

That is attacking the poster and not the posts.

Jazzy

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Congrats Jazzy for, ironically, proving the original point of this thread.
Bravo, sir...

the point of this thread is/was to get moderators to notice sexist remarks in after hours that are over the line and against the charter of the forum.

i was pointing out how people will use this to bully home an agenda which they feel passionate about.


again though, nice little soundbyte there insect overlord. sounds quippy and smart yet utterly dismissive at the same time with little or no depth behind it. not that it isn't a common theme

speaking of throwaway comments:

Thaedydal wrote: »

I do like AH other wise I would not post there.

IF you don't like my posts, put me on ignore.

liah

The fact that people are actually going as far to dredge up old posts in an attempt to remove the validity of my argument is pathetic and quite frankly all too reminiscent of the whole Scientology "if you go against us you're going down" mentality.

For god's sake. Those are very old posts. My opinion may or may not have developed since that thread, whether it has or not is not up for discussion inside of this thread. If you're curious as to know my stance then PM me but I feel if I bother posting, REGARDLESS of my answer, it's going to be seen as another excuse to remove validity.

I don't see that as acceptable at all.

Christ, I've had discrepancies with Thaedydal and I've majorly disagreed with other women who are posting here in the past but it definitely doesn't stop me from viewing their opinions on this topic as valid.

Procasinator

Thaedydal wrote: »

They took the time and go research her posts and not just in that they are looking for away to discredit her personally to discredit her position on this optic.

That is attacking the poster and not the posts.

It's like complaining about being hit by a rock in a rock throwing fight that you are actively taking part of.

However, I do think what liah is talking about is more to do with personal attacks on individuals rather than generally silly remarks so she not be attacked, at least, not with the posts mentioned.

Dudess was treated quite badly in the sexual harassment thread. Called ugly, feminazi, etc and her points were completely ignored simply because she is female. This behaviour was not on, and there should be infractions. I think this is more what liah is calling for (not to speak for her).

--Kaiser--

cherub rock wrote: »

The glee some posters here are taking about Liah starting this thread and the abuse directed at her is a ****ing joke. Dr. Zeus (a MALE) started the "Why is AH so misogynistic?" thread. Liah (after taking mod advice) started this feed back and even titled it "PERCEIVED sexism in AH".

Just goes to show how the girls are treated if they speak back. This is the 1950s ffs.

I accused her of being hypocritical by the double standards she seems to hold. That's not abuse.

Don't pretend I posted it because she is female either, because that is sexist.

liah

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I accused her of being hypocritical by the double standards she seems to hold. That's not abuse.

Don't pretend I posted it because she is female either, because that is sexist.

The point is that if anyone else had posted some of my points they would not have been discredited. My points are now discredited regardless of validity because of completely different topics (there are no personal attacks in the above quotes Pete selected for his post).

Hence, it is an attack on me, the poster, and not the post itself.

_feedback_

cherub rock wrote: »

*head explodes*

I didn't realise the post I was linking to was the same person that had said they reported 30 posts!

cherub rock wrote: »

Arggh! Initially the girls were told "what misoginy? You never report any". We said, I'm pretty sure that it's all just jokes and will be dismissed because jokes against wimminz isn't against the charter.

So they said no, no! report please - make our job easier. Certain lads in there demanded proof and exact quotes of these alleged misogynistic posts.

Right about then there happened to be a TON of fall out from the thread just highlighting how women and their grievances are accepted here. Also a bunch of **** in the sexual harrasment thread. Apparently "no one complained"

I see your point. I'm sure though, that they meant to report posts [CowenVoice] going forward [/CowenVoice] and not go back and report 30. Discussions arise and people disagree with each other. That's what happens. Going back and reporting 30 posts to validate your point isn't the way to go. That's all.

Anyhoo, everyone really needs to take a step back from this thread as it's all getting a bit heated and off the point.