AH & Perceived Sexism

Logical Fallacy

liah wrote: »

The fact that people are actually going as far to dredge up old posts in an attempt to remove the validity of my argument is pathetic and quite frankly all too reminiscent of the whole Scientology "if you go against us you're going down" mentality.

For god's sake. Those are very old posts. My opinion may or may not have developed since that thread, whether it has or not is not up for discussion inside of this thread. If you're curious as to know my stance then PM me but I feel if I bother posting, REGARDLESS of my answer, it's going to be seen as another excuse to remove validity.

I don't see that as acceptable at all.

Christ, I've had discrepancies with Thaedydal and I've majorly disagreed with other women who are posting here in the past but it definitely doesn't stop me from viewing their opinions on this topic as valid.

I think they might (maybe, i don't know,just sticking my oar in because work is quiet ) be posting more in relevance to the title of this thread than anything else, the concept of Sexist remarks in AH.

I'm willing to bet that most of the blokes in the thread who are reacting the strongest are more thinking it would be a bit crap to have the blokes having Mods etc coming down on them for comments if the sword didn't cut both ways?

In the original thread on AH i did point out that there can be plenty of jokey sexist comments made by women and aimed at men, but the get lost in the deluge because of the gender ratios. May or may not be a valid point, but kind of going hand in hand with this.

It's really just coming to a point of people needing to decide if they want AH as it is, or a more grown up AH, which is kind of just all the other forums anyways except they have a specific angle while AH is more on an open plain of crazy.

Nevyn

I do like ah which is why I post there, I get tired of the ammount of casual sexism and how female posters get attacked in there with them, so I often take a break from the forum, the last two rounds of mods over the last two years have been doing a lot of good in the forum. I had started posting again and then we had this spate of thread where sexist remarks were being used to shut down female posters.

I had given up on this after the last two times, and honestly even reading the thread in AH I was sceptical at first that there would be a fuss and nothing would change.

But it was refreshing to see other poster both male and female seeing how those types of remarks weren't on, and that they had had enough of it and were willing to stand up to fight and stay in the forum and be heard rather then be dimissed, made a laugh or with a heap of sexist 'jokes', and thinly veiled abuse.

I love AH I hate to hear people say it's shíte or the lowest common denominator, I get people surprised I post there and state they never would and when it's female posters who say that, and I ask why they don't post they said cos they see those type of remarks and how female posters are treated.

So no I don't hate AH, I want it to have more posters and more intresting threads, some of the best discussions I have taken part in over the last year have been in there.

That being said, nice way to side track and try attack me and paint me as an AH hater.

liah

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I think they might (maybe, i don't know,just sticking my oar in because work is quiet ) be posting more in relevance to the title of this thread than anything else, the concept of Sexist remarks in AH.

I'm willing to bet that most of the blokes in the thread who are reacting the strongest are more thinking it would be a bit crap to have the blokes having Mods etc coming down on them for comments if the sword didn't cut both ways?

In the original thread on AH i did point out that there can be plenty of jokey sexist comments made by women and aimed at men, but the get lost in the deluge because of the gender ratios. May or may not be a valid point, but kind of going hand in hand with this.

It's really just coming to a point of people needing to decide if they want AH as it is, or a more grown up AH, which is kind of just all the other forums anyways except they have a specific angle while AH is more on an open plain of crazy.

I understand that, and I'm honestly not trying to infringe on their verbal freedoms to humour, but I think it's unfair that a standard is set for celeb abuse, religion, politics, soccer, racism, LGBT abuse, etc. that is enforced for "attack the post not the poster" but not for abuse towards women.

They're not complaining that they can't insult the black people of boards, they're not complaining that they can't insult the LGBT people of boards, etc. They're complaining specifically that they don't want to not be able to insult the women of boards. Does that make sense?

Even if that's not what they're getting at, by repeatedly ignoring the posts where I outline that I'm concerned about comments directed at specific boards females and not concerned at all about general lighthearted pisstaking, that's what they're effectively putting across and I'm sure that's where the frustration on both sides is coming from.

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

So it's back to witchhunting the person who started the thread.

There is no witchhunt, the OP made specific comments and naturally people are going to address them and point out any hypocrisy.

liah wrote: »

Also, I don't see the point of dredging up old posts as people's opinions change and develop over time. You have no idea what my opinion on that is now.

You are critiquing a whole forum and saying that there is a problem with Mods not acting on misogynistic posts, do you really not expect then that your own posts will be taken into consideration?

liah wrote: »

But where did I throw out rude names and blatant gender-related insults?

Are you kidding?

How more 'gender based' could you comments have got on that thread.

As far as 'personal abuse' goes, users can report it and if it is not acted on, Group PM the CMods, if they don't act - take it to Admin.

I was the victim of pretty nasty personal abuse on AH from a female user and in the end it was dealt with at Admin level, so the system works.

Misogyny is not a problem in After Hours.

Misogyny is the "hatred" of women and see no evidence that there is an issue with an element there hating womankind, quite the opposite in fact.

liah wrote: »

Regardless of whether or not you agree with my OPINION, those quotes you posted still did not attack any posters unlike a lot of remarks we're talking about.

Misogyny is the hatred of ALL women, if you have an issue with individual comments, then by it's definition that could not possibly be a case a misogyny.

You have a case for sexist and personal abuse but as I have pointed out, that is a problem for both sexes in AH and they are dealt with when reported.

--Kaiser--

liah wrote: »

The point is that if anyone else had posted some of my points they would not have been discredited. My points are now discredited regardless of validity because of completely different topics (there are no personal attacks in the above quotes Pete selected for his post).

Hence, it is an attack on me, the poster, and not the post itself.

If you think it's abuse then you should report it, if you'd learned anything at all from these threads.

The point is that sexism goes both ways, in most cases it's jocular and it's disingenuous to decry sexism from one side of your mouth and spout sexism from the other. There were certainly uncalled for comments in the thread yesterday, but these stand apart from the normal AH joshy sexism and should have been reported for abuse and the users infracted/banned, but that is a different issue (IMO).

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

They took the time and go research her posts and not just in that they are looking for away to discredit her personally to discredit her position on this optic.

That is attacking the poster and not the posts.

It's not attacking the poster, it's attacking previous posts to make a point.

It was just giving some perspective on how AH can often be blatantly offensive, and not exclusively to females. It somewhat strengthens the arguments that the OP of this thread was the one being offensive in that thread.

I remember the thread that was linked to, and I remember being disgusted by it at the time, particularly liah's posts.

I don't think that it should be censored though. I can just avoid it or have a classic, AH-style, inflammatory argument about it.

(To be fair to liah, her argument seems to only be against sexist personal attacks, you and some others seem to be against any remark which might be construed as sexist (this thread is a mess as a result), which is more what OutlawPete seems to have been arguing against.)

liah

OutlawPete wrote: »

There is no witchhunt, the OP made specific comments and naturally people are going to address them and point out any hypocrisy.



You are critiquing a whole forum and saying that there is a problem with Mods not acting on misogynistic posts, do you really not expect then that your own posts will be taken into consideration?



Are you kidding?

How more 'gender based' could you comments have got on that thread.

Those posts are unrelated to the topic at hand. In the original post, I clearly stated that this is NOT the place to preach about your specific group. If you have problems from your side, start a thread as we have done. Otherwise, it has no place here-- we're discussing a very specific issue and would like to keep the topic uncluttered as possible. Dredging up old posts in which you have no idea how they relate to me now solves absolutely nothing other than to attempt to discredit my points. Just because I may have been hypocritical about something does not make it any less right.

If a doctor smoked, and told you to stop smoking, outlining all the reasons it causes harm, would you take his advice on that matter less seriously? He's still a doctor and has still given you the correct information. His personal life and history should not factor into that.

As far as 'personal abuse' goes, users can report it and if it is not acted on, Group PM the CMods, if they don't act - take it to Admin.

Covered this repeatedly.

I was the victim of pretty nasty personal abuse on AH from a female user and in the end it was dealt with at Admin level, so the system works.

That's unfortunate for you and I'm sorry it happened. Glad to hear it got cleared up.

Misogyny is not a problem in After Hours.

Misogyny is the "hatred" of women and see no evidence that there is an issue with an element there hating womankind, quite the opposite in fact.



Misogyny is the hatred of ALL women, if you have an issue with individual comments, then by it's definition that could not possibly be a case a misogyny.

Okay, fair enough. I detract any usage of the word "misogyny" and replace it with "sexism." My apologies, and hopefully it will clarify my argument.

You have a case for sexist and personal abuse but as I have pointed out, that is a problem for both sexes in AH and they are dealt with when reported.

Again, this has been covered.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

If you think it's abuse then you should report it, if you'd learned anything at all from these threads.

The point is that sexism goes both ways, in most cases it's jocular and it's disingenuous to decry sexism from one side of your mouth and spout sexism from the other. There were certainly uncalled for comments in the thread yesterday, but these stand apart from the normal AH joshy sexism and should have been reported for abuse and the users infracted/banned, but that is a different issue (IMO).

Please read the 10-odd of my posts where I've said repeatedly I will be reporting abuse from now on.

There's a few serious cases of cherrypicking going on here.

Logical Fallacy

Thaedydal wrote: »

That being said, nice way to side track and try attack me and paint me as an AH hater.

Wait, i'm confused, who said you hate AH?

_feedback_

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Wait, i'm confused, who said you hate AH?

Wait, I'm confused, what has all this petty búllshít got to do with the thread?

MoronsCensor

All censorship is wrong. Any attempt to stifle free speech is an act of cowardice and when you censor others you are completely out of line.
If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

liah

MoronsCensor wrote: »

All censorship is wrong. Any attempt to stifle free speech is an act of cowardice and when you censor others you are completely out of line.
If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

I actually can't figure out if he's being sarcastic or not. Have a feeling he's not.

In which case... RTFT.

And wait, I'm confused now-- thought we were supposed to be IN the kitchen, not out of it? :pac:

Adam

MoronsCensor wrote: »

All censorship is wrong. Any attempt to stifle free speech is an act of cowardice and when you censor others you are completely out of line.
If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

out of the kitchen, now i'm confused...? :P

biko

MoronsCensor wrote: »

If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

If you can't follow rules then you can't post on this private site.
The owners makes the rules. Moderators enforce them.

Wolfe Tone

Someone says something insulting towards a female poster, no its not just a personal insult, its misogyny.

Procasinator

I'm staying out of this thread now.

In closing, I agree with liah (and appears most people in this thread do, even the ones that don't realise it :P), personal sexist attacks should not be tolerated, nor should non-casual/lighthearted general sexist attacks.

Light-hearted jokes are allowed. Which seems to be an issue of contention for some.

It's for the mods and admins to decide what constitutes violation, and the posters to bring to their attention. This thread will hopefully encourage people to feel comfortable reporting threads and for mods to note that an important demographic of AH feel hard-done by (and still, of course, that sexism is double edged sword).

Overheal

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Someone says something insulting towards a female poster, no its not just a personal insult, its misogyny.

ha?

Catari Jaguar

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Someone says something insulting towards a female poster, no its not just a personal insult, its misogyny.

No if it's an insult due to and about her gender it isn't a regular insult. Don't play dumb and pretend you don't know the difference.

Boards members are quick enough to shout RACIST! after a joke or comment. But sexism? Nah.

biko

Aye, we try very hard to make girls feel welcome in AH, as to the rest of the site but it's sometimes an uphill battle.
I can understand that after a fair few shouts on thread about pics, boobs, back to kitchen and similar the girls kinda just give up.
Afaik, Ladies Lounge has a private subforum just so that girls can chat without having guys around to stir **** up.

Guys give out to girls on the net and then wonder why there aren't enough girls on the net. Errr...

MoronsCensor

biko wrote: »

If you can't follow rules then you can't post on this private site.
The owners makes the rules. Moderators enforce them.

Ewww creepy

OutlawPete

liah wrote: »

Just because I may have been hypocritical about something does not make it any less right.

It's not just "something" though, it's concerns this very topic.

liah wrote: »

Covered this repeatedly.

You keep saying you have, but I don't buy it.

Yourself and Thaed have said that reporting posts have done no good.

Well, if that is true and the CMods also ignore you, start a Help Desk thread and quote all the cases of sexist personal abuse that the Mods / CMods ignored and demand action.

If Admin don't act THEN start a thread here and you'll get the support of users as you will then have proof that no action is being taken.

Right now though, I see little evidence of personal sexist abuse being ignored.

liah wrote: »

Those posts are unrelated to the topic at hand.

With respect Liah, they were not "unrelated".

Your comments on that thread were sexist in the extreme and so are very relevant here where you labeling After Hours a forum were there is a stream of sexist personal comments being made against women.

I have occasionally seen 'Misogyny' listed as a reason for a ban by an AH Mod on the banlist though, so there is evidence that when it happens, it is far from not dealt with.

liah wrote: »

In the original post, I clearly stated that this is NOT the place to preach about your specific group.

If you have problems from your side, start a thread as we have done.

Sexism is sexism.

You can't just say you want to discuss sexism towards woman on this thread and not sexism towards men, and that men should in fact start their own thread.

As that would be eh .. sexist :cool:

Catari Jaguar

biko wrote: »

.
Afaik, Ladies Lounge has a private subforum just so that girls can chat without having guys around to stir **** up.

I think the private subforum is for arranging meets. Most of the chat was curtailed to the emotions thread. AFAIK, a private group for ladies and lads was set up for off topic chat. tLL has gotten very slow lately...

Anyways out of curiosity, I just googled internet misogyny and a ton of results came up. Some heavy scary stuff as well as the 4chan stuff. Maybe boards could be pioneers of internet equality?

Nevyn

So the girls should post away in private forums as to not provoke a certain percentage of the male posters?

Internet burka how are you.

I know you mean well biko, I know you do but that would be a step back
and posters shouldn't have to hide the fact the are female or only post in a female 'dedicated area'.

Catari Jaguar

If posters would just not be twats and have some manners and maturity and respect we wouldn't have to go through all this trouble. You're asking so much of the girls here such as

start a Help Desk thread and quote all the cases of sexist personal abuse that the Mods / CMods ignored and demand action.

But no mention of "Lads, it's not funny. Give it a rest or take it elsewhere"

liah

OutlawPete wrote: »

It's not just "something" though, it's concerns this very topic.

Again, I reiterate: You do NOT know how I feel about that subject currently, you do NOT know whether my opinions have changed on it, and therefore you CANNOT use it as a means to discredit me. It is making it personal. That is not right.

OutlawPete wrote: »

You keep saying you have, but I don't buy it.

Yourself and Thaed have said that reporting posts have done no good.

Well, if that is true and the CMods also ignore you, start a Help Desk thread and quote all the cases of sexist personal abuse that the Mods / CMods ignored and demand action.

If Admin don't act THEN start a thread here and you'll get the support of users as you will then have proof that no action is being taken.

Right now though, I see little evidence of personal sexist abuse being ignored.

You don't have to "buy" it but it's certainly there if you can actually bother your arse looking for it, why on earth is the onus on me to repeat myself hundreds of times because people want to argue with me but are too lazy to actually research my argument that has been made freely available in multiple posts? Hardly fecking fair. Like I said: it's been done. To death.

OutlawPete wrote: »

With respect Liah, they were not "unrelated".

Your comments on that thread were sexist in the extreme and so are very relevant here where you labeling After Hours a forum were there is a stream of sexist personal comments being made against women.

Last time. YOU DO NOT KNOW MY OPINIONS ON THIS MATTER CURRENTLY. Those were posted some time ago and therefore cannot be used in reference to this as they're anecdotal at best and you have no idea what my opinion is now.

You can accuse me of whatever you please but your claims are attacking ME by going into MY PERSONAL PAST and not my points in this thread on this topic. Please read my last 10 or so posts for repeated expanding on this.

OutlawPete wrote: »

I have occasionally seen 'Misogyny' listed as a reason for a ban by an AH Mod on the banlist though, so there is evidence that when it happens, it is far from not dealt with.

Just because you've seen it happen once or twice doesn't necessarily mean it's enough and doesn't necessarily mean you're picking up on everything, either, considering you're coming at it from a different perspective than we are.

OutlawPete wrote: »

Sexism is sexism.

You can't just say you want to discuss sexism towards woman on this thread and not sexism towards men, and that men should in fact start their own thread.

As that would be eh .. sexist :cool:

Having both discussed here would do nothing but take away from the issues of each group (as each group has very, very different experiences and perspectives; it's not sexist, they've just experienced life different) and end it in a big men vs. women pissing contest and that is exactly what I do not want.

It was clarified in the OP that this was a specific discussion about how women feel they're treated in AH. It's not sexist to ask that it's kept on topic, and I'd never consider a man starting an equivalent thread to be sexist, I would see it as a man bringing to attention issues that relate to him and people of his group.

Overheal

liah wrote: »

Again, I reiterate: You do NOT know how I feel about that subject currently, you do NOT know whether my opinions have changed on it, and therefore you CANNOT use it as a means to discredit me. It is making it personal. That is not right.

Like every politician ever. Not buying it: stand behind what you write. Even the stuff that sparks controversial feedback threads about swallowing and misogyny.

liah

Overheal wrote: »

Like every politician ever. Not buying it: stand behind what you write. Even the stuff that sparks controversial feedback threads about swallowing and misogyny.

I don't care if you don't buy it. People change over time. I don't hold the same opinions I held a month ago, a year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. I shouldn't be expected to commit to an opinion for life just because I may have had reasons to have it in the past.

Every day I challenge my opinions and work through them and try to evolve them. How would you feel if people thought you were the exact same person as you where when you were a teen, for instance? Though I suppose everyone's different, but I know I thought a lot of stupid stuff as a child, as a teenager, and even recently that I would definitely disagree with at this stage in my life.

It holds no bearing on this argument. If you want to discuss my comments towards men, by all means, discuss it in another thread and I'll participate respectfully. But this just isn't the place because it's so obviously a ploy to invalidate everything I've said, and I really don't believe that's fair as I believe I've made a few good points, even if some of them have been in the midst of frustration from not being listened to properly.

I am just honestly a genuine person who's genuinely trying to help and who has made mistakes in the past. Just like you. Just like every other person on the planet.

Gummy Panda

Thaedydal wrote: »

So the girls should post away in private forums as to not provoke a certian precentage of the male posters?

Internet burka how are you.

Biko didn't say that. His post gave me the impression that he understands the trouble women have with posting on boards that some resort to chat in a private form.

Feeona

Dravokivich wrote: »

I suppose you think all boys are disgusting and just want to get into your knickers too?

I just want to bring this to anyone who is wondering why this thread was started in feedback.

I posted an argument against how women are perceived in AH, and the above was given in reply. In other words, I must be a prude for even daring to open my mouth against what I preceive to be contempt for the female gender.

Either that, or I'm a slut.

Wait...what's the current view on women?:rolleyes:

PS Please note Dravokivich, I haven't an issue with you expressing your opinion. I am more than prepared to talk with anyone about their opinions. But I really have no time for passive aggressive insinuations that I wouldn't dare let a man touch me.

Nevyn

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Biko didn't say that. His post gave me the impression that he understands the trouble women have with posting on boards that some resort to chat in a private form.

Should they have to resort to posting in a private forum just because they are female? I really don't think so, if there is trouble that stops people from posting in a forum due to personal gendered comments then those making them should be in trouble.

OutlawPete

liah wrote: »

.. therefore you CANNOT use it as a means to discredit me.

It was not used as a means to "discredit" you.

When I see your name, two threads spring to mind: Woman Rapes Ten Men & Steak and Blowjob Day.

Your thread was used as an example to show that there is both sexism towards men and women in After Hours and that is far from a misogynist free for all, which was the overall implication.

You may feel that it is irrelevant to this thread that men are also on the receiving end of sexist remarks and comments daily also, but it is very relevant.

You can't discuss one without the other as you will then be given the impression that women are treated differently to men on After Hours and that would be wholly unfair as it is just not the case.

liah wrote: »

You don't have to "buy" it but it's certainly there if you can actually bother your arse looking for it, why on earth is the onus to repeat myself hundreds of times because people want to argue with me but are too lazy to actually research my argument? Hardly fecking fair. Like I said: it's been done. To death.

I have seen it and you are missing the point made by many posters by repeating: "It's been done to death, to death".

If Mods & CMods ignore and don't act on personal abuse, you have the option of starting a Help Desk thread, have you ever done that?

liah wrote: »

Those were posted some time ago and therefore cannot be used in reference to this as they're anecdotal at best and you have no idea what my opinion is now.

That thread was used to show that it goes on.

If Thaed had of started this thread, I would have posted many of her sexist comments from After Hours to show that there is a lot of hypocrisy on this thread.

liah wrote: »

... your claims are attacking ME by going into MY PERSONAL PAST ..

Wow, talk about playing the victim, how santimonious can you get.

I quoted some sexist comments that you made in one of your After Hour's threads and suddenly I'm "attacking you" and going into your "personal past"???

Quite unbelievable.