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RTE's Ireland's greatest person
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Someone elseNot a great list but lets not be too hard on ourselves.
In the list greatest Britons Oliver Cromwell came 10th, a man who is worst a genocidal maniacal dictator, at best simply a mass murderer.
I think that it says a lot (positive) about Ireland and (negative) about England that we get debate Connolly and Collins being on our list while Cromwell inclusion doesn't bother anybody over there.
Comparatively small scale violence in the name of national liberation is a tricky and morally ambiguous subject, worthy of debate and self analysis.
Large scale massacre and indiscrimination killing in the name of pseudo-democracy and sectarian hatred is indefensible, yet the British revere him as a democratic hero, mostly unaware of his campaigns in Ireland.
Also on the list of greatest Britons, Newton (6th) Shakespeare (5th) and Darwin (4th) were beaten by Princess Diane (3rd)
Connolly made their list (63rd) interestingly enough.
But where's James Joyce on ours? Crazy exclusion.0 -
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Michael CollinsHe was a very good assasin. Great at shooting brits in their beds and gun running. He would have been very effective in the provos in the 70s or 80s.
But as a politician he was a disaster. He had no vision for Ireland apart from get the brits out. No idea what type of Ireland he wanted to build. In the treaty negociations he was out of his depth and signed a sell out treaty that started a bitter civil war, divided the country and still left us under the control of the British banks and landlords.
In short he was a good freedom fighter and very bad politician
Fixed that for you
100% agree with the rest of your post btw
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Michael Collinswolfpawnat wrote: »Robinson - I don't think she is top 20 let alone top 5 material, I think she is there because she is a woman, but that is not a good enough reason, why not Countess Markievicz. Thats a woman that is a role model, the ultimate Irish feminist!
Top post, I want to hear more from you
For what it's worth I went for James Connolly in the poll, very close between him and Collins tho!0 -
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Earlier in the read he tried. I'll leave it to others to decide whether he succeeded.KerranJast wrote: »Care to back up your fishing attempt with some reasoning behind that?
With the hindsight of history you defo could say that, but(and I an see this one going down well with some...) by the standards of the time he gave more quarter than many of his contemporaries. Indeed he warned and prosecuted some of his own men for conduct unbecoming in battle. Was he a bollocks at times? bloody right, but there were attrocities on both sides. Plus those who followed after him were often worse.onlyrocknroll wrote: »Not a great list but lets not be too hard on ourselves.
In the list greatest Britons Oliver Cromwell came 10th, a man who is worst a genocidal maniacal dictator, at best simply a mass murderer.
As far as the English go it was the only time in their history that they had a constitution and he gave them a republic. But since they fought among themselves as much as ourselves that went tits up. But I can see why he would figure in the list.
Interestingly when they looked for a greatest englishman/woman list, there was only half in the top 20 that were english. Welsh Scots and Irish made up the rest. Its like when Pearce Brosnan was announced as the new James Bond and a couple of tabloids questioned his suitability for the role because of his Irishness. Sean Connery came to his defence by pointing out that up to then only one English actor had played him(Moore). The rest being a scot, welshman and a new zealander. Doh!
Agreed. The literary types have been left out. I figure if Bono is there well then wtf?... Like I said earlier in the thread I'd throw Columbanus on the list. His influence on the shaping of Europe after Rome fell was significant. And John Scottus Eriugena, the bald lad that used to be on our old fivers. He was one of the most original thinkers of his time(and after) and arguably the first great philosopher since the fall of Rome.But where's James Joyce on ours? Crazy exclusion.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Michael CollinsTop post, I want to hear more from you
For what it's worth I went for James Connolly in the poll, very close between him and Collins tho!
Haha thanks!
I too went for Connolly, but then I and my ex incorporated his, and Pearses names into our child's name so we are a bit biasGood point. If Collins had lived and became a Cumann na nGeadheal politician he would be remembered in the same way as his close allies Kevin O'Higgins or Eoin O'Duffy. When idols die young people tend to wonder "what if" and usually fill in the blanks in the kindest ways.
Exactly, what ifs are dangerous! We all hero worship those who die young and tragically!
James Dean is a movie star example, was he a great actor, who knows! One or two movies can't show your their career!0 -
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Someone elseEarlier in the read he tried. I'll leave it to others to decide whether he succeeded.
With the hindsight of history you defo could say that, but(and I an see this one going down well with some...) by the standards of the time he gave more quarter than many of his contemporaries. Indeed he warned and prosecuted some of his own men for conduct unbecoming in battle. Was he a bollocks at times? bloody right, but there were attrocities on both sides. Plus those who followed after him were often worse.
As far as the English go it was the only time in their history that they had a constitution and he gave them a republic. But since they fought among themselves as much as ourselves that went tits up. But I can see why he would figure in the list.
Interestingly when they looked for a greatest englishman/woman list, there was only half in the top 20 that were english. Welsh Scots and Irish made up the rest. Its like when Pearce Brosnan was announced as the new James Bond and a couple of tabloids questioned his suitability for the role because of his Irishness. Sean Connery came to his defence by pointing out that up to then only one English actor had played him(Moore). The rest being a scot, welshman and a new zealander. Doh!
Agreed. The literary types have been left out. I figure if Bono is there well then wtf?... Like I said earlier in the thread I'd throw Columbanus on the list. His influence on the shaping of Europe after Rome fell was significant. And John Scottus Eriugena, the bald lad that used to be on our old fivers. He was one of the most original thinkers of his time(and after) and arguably the first great philosopher since the fall of Rome.
I don't want to go too far OT about Cromwell but I'd enjoy good debate about it.
I'm annoyed that (non-Anglo) Irish men made the British list. I think that being fair and inclusive about people's identities mean that we must accept that some people are both Irish and British, but Bono and Geldoff are Irish nationals from the modern Irish state with no element of dual identity whatsoever. Their inclusion on the list is a bit politically insensitive IMO. (Anybody know how they felt about it?)
Good suggestions about Columbanus and John Scottus Eriugena. I didn't even think of people like that. Actually George Berkeley and especially Edmund Burke while we're at it0 -
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Someone elsewolfpawnat wrote: »Countess Markievicz was the first ever woman MP to Britain on behalf of Ireland (though she did not take her seat) and also the first female TD in Ireland!
She took part in the women's sufferage campaign.
She founded Fianna Éireann. Seen by Patrick Pearse as " important as the creation of the Irish Volunteers"
She was involved as a member of the ICA during the 1913 lockout. She paid for food to help those who suffered as a result of the lockout out of her own pocket and sold many airlooms and items of jewelery to pay for such!
She started up a soup kitchen for poor school children
She was second in command in Stephens Green and later in the College of Surgeons during Easter Week.
She fought to be executed like other leaders and not to be seen any different because of her gender.
Mary Robinson has NOTHING on this woman! A first female president does not say much about the president, but more of the forward thinking of the people of the country!!!
There's a strange implication in this post that there should only be one woman on the list, and it's a contest between Markievicz and Robinson.
Why not argue for Markievicz in place of one of the other people in the top 5, why should she be there in place of the only woman?0 -
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Michael Collinsonlyrocknroll wrote: »There's a strange implication in this post that there should only be one woman on the list, and it's a contest between Markievicz and Robinson.
Why not argue for Markievicz in place of one of the other people in the top 5, why should she be there in place of the only woman?onlyrocknroll wrote: »Also you've only referenced one of the points I made in favour of Robinson. I didn't say that she should be Ireland's greatest person because she was the first female president, I gave a host of other reasons also which you ignored.
In your posts you listed all of what are Robinsons attributes, I merely listed all of Markievicz's.
I know this is sexiest again my own gender, as women have only had such a short period of time at the forefront of Irish life, ergo as great as both these women are both pale in comparison to most of the historical men!
As it is down to the last 5, I do not think Robinson is in that category, indeed I do believe she should be placed quite high (top 25) but top 5, I am sorry but IMO many more suitable candidates were overlooked. I stated that the reason I think she is so high is she has the female vote due to the lack of good female candidates. If we were to go by the most influencial woman in Irish history I feel she does not rank as highly as the countess.
I wonder what the reastion from the public would have been had there been no woman in the top 5?0 -
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Michael Collins.
P.S I voted for Connolly, but only because Walton, Swift, Joyce, Boyle didn't figure. John Hume helped start the Credit Union movement in Ireland, starting in Derry, which hasn't been mentioned yet AFAICS.
Yah, another Connolly
As for Hume, I learned something new today 0 -
Michael Collinsonlyrocknroll wrote: »Why do these woman 'pale in comparison' to Irish great men? I would put both of them above most Irish nationalists figures, with a few exceptions.
Because throughout history, more men have come to the forfront, women did not get the chance, ergo there are more famous and historic men than women. Men through luck of gender were able to achieve more than our women.
Indeed Robinson as a president has been more ballsy in her position than most of the men, and that she is a fantastic humanitarian but I still don't think she is top 5. I personally don't think any Irish President can call themselves a top 5 irish person
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Someone elsewolfpawnat wrote: »Because throughout history, more men have come to the forfront, women did not get the chance, ergo there are more famous and historic men than women. Men through luck of gender were able to achieve more than our women.
Indeed Robinson as a president has been more ballsy in her position than most of the men, and that she is a fantastic humanitarian but I still don't think she is top 5. I personally don't think any Irish President can call themselves a top 5 irish person
You misunderstood my question. I meant why do you value the contributions of some men higher then these two women, rather then
'Why do you think more men have made an impact on Irish life than women."
The question was about your criteria for judgement, rather than a sociological question.
To rephrase; what are the reasons that you personally regard some Irish men (presummably Connolly, Pearst, Collins etc) to be greater than Mary Robinson ( and Constance Markievic)?0 -
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onlyrocknroll wrote: »There's a strange implication in this post that there should only be one woman on the list, and it's a contest between Markievicz and Robinson.
Why not argue for Markievicz in place of one of the other people in the top 5, why should she be there in place of the only woman?
a woman in place of a man hahahah,good joke,good joke.0 -
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