Cocker Spaniel in PUP - Help needed

Guill

Hi, i have a beautiful Black Cocker Spaniel Bitch who is in pup to a Golden Cocker Dog. Problem now is i dont exactly know for sure when she is due, could be anyday or it could be a week, i dont know! I brought her to the vet for a scan and it was the worst money i ever spent, i asked him how long do you think she has left, he said She is pregnant but that he didn't know, she is probaly 6 weeks gone but he wouldn't be shocked if she had them in the morning! WTF? So, She is fairly big now and not as active as she was, she Pee's more than she does anything else now. She is in a run with 'Dodge' the golden Cocker, they were bought at the same time and have grown up together so everytime i seperate them they cry non stop. When i brought her to the Vet he lay in the dog house howling till she got back.

So i just wanna know, what is the best way to seperate the dogs without causing stress?
If she whelps, can the dog be around? Will he attack the pups?
Whats the best way to build a whelping area?
Any signs hat i could read to get an approximate arrival date?

any other hints, tips would be welcome.

andreac

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Guill

No i was not around when she was mated for personal reasons which i will not go into.
It is an unplanned Litter but not unwanted.
Regarding the Vet, i knew she was prengant, anyone could tell she was, I rang the vet to see if i should bring her in for a check up, he said to bring her in for a scan, all the scan did was provve she was pregnant. Waste of money.
Can you reccomend any books on whelping? i have looked around all local pet and book shops and can't find one.
found her birth cert the other day and she is 16 months old and though it is not ideal for her to be having pups, i find nothing wrong with her having them at that age. IKC say she can be bred from 1 year on with a dog thats 7 months or older.

andreac

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Cherry Blossom

OP do you have a thermometer? If not get one today. There will be a change in her temperature and the pups should be born within a day or 2 after her temperature changes. Don't leave her alone under any circumstances after her temperature drops. I don't care if she lives outside, bring her in or stay out with her (night-time included). Some very basic info here for you while your waiting for your book to arrive.

http://www.sniksnak.com/doghealth/breeding.html

Guill

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but 16 months is still too young in my opinion as she is not fully mature at that age.
Yes it might say they can be bred from at that age, doesnt mean its right. Thats the absolute minimum age a dog should be bred from. I would never breed a bitch under 2 or use a male dog under 18 months and i own a stud dog.
What did you think the scan was going to prove though? You should have asked the vet what was involved before bringing her in if you were concerned about money.
If you are concerned about money its going to cost you a fortune to have this litter and mind them until they go to their new homes so be prepared to be out of pocket with special food, bedding, worming, vaccinations, registration and so on.

I suggest going online and ordering a book about whelping. You need to take responsibility and make sure that you do right by this litter now.
http://www.amazon.com/Whelping-Rearing-Puppies-Complete-Practical/dp/0793804973

Just wondering if either dog has had the relevent health checks for the breed?

You seem to have adopted a holier than thou approach Andrea and you are completely missing the point. Firstly money is no issue, i rang the vet, told him i had a pregnant dog and wanted to make sure she is okay and he said bring her in. Thats it, i asked for the vets advice and i got a scan that told me nothing.

money is no object regarding the pups and i have arranged homes already with people who i've met in the last year or so whom i've met and adore my dogs.(for free). My dogs are my pets not some farm animals used for stud and pups.

At what point did i say anything that would suggest that i was not going to take responsibility for the litter?

Yes dogs have the breed specific checks complete, anything else.

Guill

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP do you have a thermometer? If not get one today. There will be a change in her temperature and the pups should be born within a day or 2 after her temperature changes. Don't leave her alone under any circumstances after her temperature drops. I don't care if she lives outside, bring her in or stay out with her (night-time included). Some very basic info here for you while your waiting for your book to arrive.

http://www.sniksnak.com/doghealth/breeding.html

Thanks, Advce greatly appreciated.

suziwalsh

Guill wrote: »

So i just wanna know, what is the best way to seperate the dogs without causing stress?
If she whelps, can the dog be around? Will he attack the pups?
Whats the best way to build a whelping area?
Any signs hat i could read to get an approximate arrival date?

any other hints, tips would be welcome.

I have to agree with Andrea. I dont think she is being incorrect. From your initial post you appear to have a dog that is ready to give birth and have researched very little before coming on a forum and asking questions. All of this should have been done prior to mating a dog. As you said you were not around when this happened but as a responsible dog owner/breeder it is something you should have been aware of. You have a un-neutered male and female dog living together......so a little more planning should have been involved.

The female will need to be seperated from the male (she also may not want him near the pups when they are born at all). She will need a quiet area on her own to nest. She needs to be on a high quality puppy food somewhere comfortable and warm. Any stress on her part could lead to serious complications. There is loads of information available online to show you want needs to be done. Also start researching how to stimulate pups and begin handling/feeding/worming and keeping mum fit and healthy. The reason it is best to have a female over 2yrs giving birth is the same as it is for people and teenage pregnancies......a dog needs to be mature and fully developed to be a good mum and have a smooth birth.

Best of Luck and start researching!

andreac

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The Sweeper

http://www.dogstuff.info/to_breed_or_not.html

Sierra Milton's excellent article about whether or not to breed. There's a section in there on what to expect at a birth.

Guill

If i knew she was in heat at the time i would have made the decision to breed or her not there and then, this was her second time in heat and the first time we made sure nothing happened through close monitoring etc.

I cleared her out an entire shed last night for her to use. I brought her in to show her the new set-up and she wouldn't go into her run afterwards, she wanted to stay in the shed! Greta, i left her in there and she was happy as a pig in ****. She slept there all night happy out. The dog wasn't too happy but he will get over it.

As regards the birthing. I think i can handle it, i have assisted with various farm animals before. Rubbing and stimulating the young is the same (?)

Got a thermometer on way to work this morning too.

IceMaiden

The advice so far posted all basically reads good & pointing you in the right direction, be very careful if you use the thermometer , it depends on how use you are to inserting them & how relaxed the bitch is otherwise an accident could result ,but temperature is a good indicator.
If you know her habits well then depending on her litter size she may start to struggle consuming all her usual feed due to lack of internal space,. Buy or make a whelping box including fitting rails about its sides [anti crush] get & store lots of potential bedding.

Also test the whelping box area temperature with the thermometer ,suspend an overhead heat lamp & check temp directly underneath it then make sure the temp varies somewhat away from the direct heat source, that obviously allows for them to crawl into a suitable heat zone.
As she gets closer to whelp her hair will most probably thin around her teats & if you use your finger & thumb gently but firmly on them a milk like substance will be produced indicating whelp is close. Be very observant after the full whelp is over due to milk fever etc.

A traditional warm water bottle or plastic drinks bottle can be useful covered in cloth as temporary heat sources , particularly during whelp it can be used to keep pups warm while she attends to each birth or is exercised gently between the latter whelps. if you can record the time of each birth it can help indicate approx time lapses between & closely observe her actions/contractions. Be sure each & every pup gets its first early feed from her .
If you can find anyone close by who has a suitable foster mother it could be useful also to have in a supply of substitute feed for them & perhaps a liquid supplement to feed the bitch between whelping & during the early days of her feeding the litter. Also keep a spare heat lamp bulb.

me_right_one

I have to say, the nastiness in this thread is shocking. The OP is asking for help, and one poster in particular seems to have taken personal exception to the fact that the OP is a bit inexperienced. Sure we all had to start somewhere, even you AndreaC. Anyway, isnt that what the internet is for, finding things out from other people? Its not about getting "thanks" from complete strangers. OP best of luck with your pups. I might even be interested in buying one!

Guill

Thanks, me.
It was advice i wanted not reprimand.
About buying 1, i will let you know if thats possible.
Obviously there is no garantee how many will be born and some are promised away (all going well).


I have also kitted out the shed with heat lamps and excluded all draughts.

Had a bit of a shock last night though. Firstly she refused her food and then sat down on the bed grunting, i thought it was contractions!
She was very anxious and didn't want to be left alone, i thought pups were coming!
I could feel the pups moving in her belly and every few mins she would moan, this went on for an couple of hours but in the end she stood up and RAn off down the garden, i think she was just looking for attention!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Guill wrote: »

You seem to have adopted a holier than thou approach Andrea and you are completely missing the point. .

andreac wrote: »

No i havent at all............. i havent been thanked once, so i wont be replying anymore!

Probably a good thing tbh.

I've never seen you take this attitude with someone on this forum before Andrea, tbh I was pretty shocked!.

The OP was just looking for advice on what to do here on in, as the damage is done (so to speak) there really was no need to go tearing her a new asshole!.

yolanda

OP, wish you all the best with your new pups and completly agree with me_right _one. Nastiness very evident in other posts when all OP wants is some advice. Unfortunately I'm very much a novice on the subject but maybe giving a local breeder or kennels a call on things to look out for.
Maybe they might even call around to check your cocker out.

Best of luck.

Hellrazer

Iliana Screeching Storefront wrote: »

The OP was just looking for advice on what to do here on in, as the damage is done (so to speak) there really was no need to go tearing her a new asshole!.

I agree and to be totally honest theres too much of this going on here lately.

A poster asks a genuine question about "XYZ" and they get a lecture about the issues totally unrelated to the OP`s original question.

From today on Im going to start issuing infractions for this and multiple breaches of this rule will result in a holiday from the forum.

anniehoo

Hellrazer wrote: »

From today on Im going to start issuing infractions for this and multiple breaches of this rule will result in a holiday from the forum.

Brilliant and long over due tbh. Im sick and tired of seeing the condescending attitudes of some of the posters to threads.

morganafay

I can see why people get upset on this board and then sometimes say things that come across as nasty or condescending.

But for all we know, the OP has done loads of research and will be the best breeder ever, just wanted advice on this one thing.

Good luck with the pups anyway Post some pics when they're born!

ISDW

You know what though, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that most of andreac's first post is full of really great advice about whelping etc, she gave more than anyone else in this thread.

Yes maybe the tone of some replies wasn't great, but none of those complaining about it have actually given the OP any advice on what they asked, unlike andrea.

OP, google book of the bitch, buy it asap and have it to hand. Don't forget the pig rails in the whelping area, to stop the bitch rolling onto any of the pups. Make sure you have milk replacement in, I find the Royal Canin one is the best, get it from your vet. If for some reason the pups won't feed from the mum, try at least to get them to have the first feed from her, to get the colustrum they need. I know that you have a shed all ready for her, but is there nowhere in the house that you could bring her to whelp and raise the pups for the first few weeks? So that it will be warm and you can keep an eye on them?

sophie1234

i dont no a huge amount on bitches in pup are old dog did have puppies once we didn't even no she was pregnant till the end. but she did run to the end of the garden to have her pups away from everyone in the end so watch out if the bitch is doing this as she may want to go off and have them alone!

me_right_one

ISDW wrote: »

You know what though, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that most of andreac's first post is full of really great advice about whelping etc, she gave more than anyone else in this thread.

Yes maybe the tone of some replies wasn't great, but none of those complaining about it have actually given the OP any advice on what they asked, unlike andrea.

I wouldnt say she gave more advice than anyone else, there are plenty of good posts here. And hang on a sec, it was AndreaC who was complaining! No need for it whatsoever. The internet is for everyone, experienced and inexperienced, not just those who can provide specific help to the OP. If the OP, you, or andreaC ever ask me for help and I can help you, I will, in a friendly, respectful manner.:) Posts like this might be a bit OT, but it needs to be said. Nasties go away please. That way, we'll all benefit from friendly, advice-filled posts.

shinikins

Aside from the nastiness, there has been some very good advice given. Keep an eye on her belly, the closer she is to giving birth, the less movement you will see. She'll also become a little quieter in herself. Don't be surprised if she doesn't want you near the pups in the first hours after birth-many bitches are like this, its just natural instinct and as soon as she see's you mean no harm she'll relax and trust you to handle them.

Best of luck with the pups, i do hope you'll keep us updated! And pictures would be great-there's nothing quite like a newborn pup!!!

ISDW

me_right_one wrote: »

I wouldnt say she gave more advice than anyone else, there are plenty of good posts here. And hang on a sec, it was AndreaC who was complaining! No need for it whatsoever. The internet is for everyone, experienced and inexperienced, not just those who can provide specific help to the OP. If the OP, you, or andreaC ever ask me for help and I can help you, I will, in a friendly, respectful manner.:) Posts like this might be a bit OT, but it needs to be said. Nasties go away please. That way, we'll all benefit from friendly, advice-filled posts.

But how exactly have you helped the OP in this thread? What has she learned that might help her (I'm assuming its a woman, don't know why) and the dogs? Theres a report button, surely if you have a problem with a post thats what you do, press that, not start moaning about how someone answers a post? There are a good few posts in this thread that are totally off topic, just discussing how one poster has replied. What andrea has posted could save the bitch and/or pups' lives, so it is very useful information.

And now I've allowed myself to be drawn into your nonsense.:rolleyes:

me_right_one

ISDW wrote: »

But how exactly have you helped the OP in this thread? What has she learned that might help her (I'm assuming its a woman, don't know why) and the dogs? Theres a report button, surely if you have a problem with a post thats what you do, press that, not start moaning about how someone answers a post? There are a good few posts in this thread that are totally off topic, just discussing how one poster has replied. What andrea has posted could save the bitch and/or pups' lives, so it is very useful information.

And now I've allowed myself to be drawn into your nonsense.:rolleyes:

I havent helped the OP at all. As I pointed out, the internet is for learners too. I joined this thread to learn a bit, and merely passed a comment that nastiness helps nobody. How is that moaning? You came in late to the thread and your first contribution had nastiness in it. It is YOU who is carrying on with nonesense. I think I will use that report button! To all nasties out there, please go away and let genuine people contribute / learn from this thread in a friendly way!

anniehoo

ISDW i didnt have any advice to give the OP but have been reading this thread none the less, learning alot but getting more and more irritated with one particular posters comments. Rather than moan in the thread i sent PMs to the forum mods about their attitude. Yep, good advice was given ill give them that, but it was the patronising aside comments that ruined it and its most definitely not the first thread this particular poster has been condescending in.

I agree with Hellrazer and im glad im not the only one whos noticed it.This forum should be approachable, helpful and friendly. You can advise someone that they mightnt be doing something the correct way but theres a way of doing it that doesnt involve using a holier than thou attitude.

Hellrazer

I decided to post what I posted because I feel that lately the advice(abuse) given in this forum is putting first time users off.

If I was the OP in this thread I wouldnt bother coming back here for advice and thats what needs to be addressed here.

Just because some of us are more knowledgeable about animals and their upkeep than others some feel like its their god given right to put someone down (excuse the pun) when they do something wrong.


Surely if a user comes here asking for advice then they know they are doing something wrong and asking for help here is the first step in sorting the problem--no??
So then they are cut to pieces by certain members and dont bother even trying to fix the problem or posting again<<<<<<<<<This could be counter productive for the animal that the user is trying to help.

ISDW

me_right_one wrote: »

I havent helped the OP at all. As I pointed out, the internet is for learners too. I joined this thread to learn a bit, and merely passed a comment that nastiness helps nobody. How is that moaning? You came in late to the thread and your first contribution had nastiness in it. It is YOU who is carrying on with nonesense. I think I will use that report button! To all nasties out there, please go away and let genuine people contribute / learn from this thread in a friendly way!

You're absolutely right, I shouldn't have given the OP any info that might help her, I apologise. I didn't realise there was a time limit on threads, that you had to answer them within a specific time frame again, I apologise. I shall go and check the rules now, obviously its been added quite recently.

How on earth was I nasty? Please, point it out to me. Have I attacked anyone? No, have you? Yes, kettle, pot, black?

I'm really glad that you are now going to use the report button, you see, you have learnt something from this thread, and maybe you can pass that wisdom on in the future.:D

ISDW

Hellrazer wrote: »

I decided to post what I posted because I feel that lately the advice(abuse) given in this forum is putting first time users off.

If I was the OP in this thread I wouldnt bother coming back here for advice and thats what needs to be addressed here.

Just because some of us are more knowledgeable about animals and their upkeep than others some feel like its their god given right to put someone down (excuse the pun) when they do something wrong.


Surely if a user comes here asking for advice then they know they are doing something wrong and asking for help here is the first step in sorting the problem--no??
So then they are cut to pieces by certain members and dont bother even trying to fix the problem or posting again<<<<<<<<<This could be counter productive for the animal that the user is trying to help.

Thats absolutely fine, and as a mod, obviously you have to do your job, but why not encourage people to use the report post button instead of attacking another poster. Surely those that have had a go at andreac have committed the same 'sin' as she has? She hasn't been treated in a very friendly manner?

toadfly

But seriously Hellraiser you have to realise how frustrating it can be reading some of the threads on here, if everyone replies saying arent you great asking for advice without pointing out the mistakes how will anyone else reading this forum learn? The same mistakes will be made and more pups will be born without health checks etc.

Andrea gets attacked daily on this forum which is so unfair, she gives so much good advice. She replied to a thread lately, the OP was asking for a Great Dane breeder and she passed on the information. She gave really good advice in this thread and so many others and she is getting slated and I am sick of it. Its putting me off coming on here as well. She gets pi$$ed off at people looking for cross breeds with fancy names (cockapoo, puggle etc) and I dont blame her.

Some people are so irresponsible with their animals and I can see why so many of the regular posters are getting mad.

Hellrazer

ISDW wrote: »

Thats absolutely fine, and as a mod, obviously you have to do your job, but why not encourage people to use the report post button instead of attacking another poster.

In the past I have asked users to use the report button but to be totally honest most people dont bother until they are the ones who suffer the abuse.Its like that "car crash" syndrome thing--Lets all watch and see the outcome.

Surely those that have had a go at andreac have committed the same 'sin' as she has? She hasn't been treated in a very friendly manner?

My post wasnt aimed at Andreac--I agree 100% that her advice can be very good on this forum and she does contribute a lot to the forum albeit in a manner that I dont always agree with ie. this thread.
What I`d like is for the regulars to go a bit easy on new posters and let them feel a bit more welcome even if they have fooked up with something no matter how serious a fook up it is.They dont need a lecture when they are looking for advice.