Pope UK visit mega discussion thread.

starbelgrade

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Are you saying that fairness is inherent in humans in general and not a learned concept?

I'm not saying that it is, or that it isn't. All I am saying is that morality, even absolute morality, can & does exist in secular societies.

What the Pope is suggesting, is that without the guidance of the Church, that society would collapse into some kind of immoral hell hole. But this concept is clearly ludicrous & is a failed attempt at trying to do what the Catholic Church has done for centuries now.. which is to rule over people by playing on people's fears & by scaremongering.

While this may still work on some people, I would imagine that the vast majority of people these days are too well informed & educated to actually believe in such obvious nonsense.

_feedback_

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Euthanasia was legal in Western Australia for a time, And forms of it are already legal in Europe. There have been a series of hard test cases in the UK to force the law through through precedent.

That's nice. But you're telling me that I'll soon be getting rid of my granny because I'm sick of her. I don't believe that will happen.



my granny died of natural causes in 1998. I'm just using her here to make my point.

oppenheimer1

MrStuffins wrote: »

Pope Benedict, is that you?

Because all i keep reading from you is "Things i believe are wrong are happening in the world........... it must be down to secularism".

Either back up your claims that these things are happening because of Godlessness or stop talking!

I don't necessarily want you to agree with him, I want you to see his point!

oppenheimer1

elviscostello wrote: »

That's nice. But you're telling me that I'll soon be getting rid of my granny because I'm sick of her. I don't believe that will happen.



my granny died of natural causes in 1998. I'm just using her here to make my point.

Well what if your granny was sitting on your potentially large inheritance and refusing to kick the bucket. What if you were of low moral character but perfectly within the law convinced your granny that her life wasn't worth living, she was a burden. But you offer her a dignified exit via lethal injection. The fear is that the vulnerable will be bullied into euthanasia because attitudes will see it to be acceptable.

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't necessarily want you to agree with him, I want you to see his point!

Holy hell! Haven't you been reading the thread? Do you honestly think i've been replying in this thread without understanding his point?

MrStuffins wrote: »

And he's SERIOUSLY mistaken!

MrStuffins wrote: »

And, again, he is seriously mistaken!

Can you honestly tell me that more heinous crimes are commited by secular society than in the name of a God? You're living on a cloud my friend!

Come on, are you just playing the ignorant Catholic card or is this real?

fakeaccent

DonJose wrote: »

Pot > Kettle > Black

I'm no fan of Ratzinger but that picture is edited to be really misleading

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JRkgseRT7NY/S5mNSQLWH_I/AAAAAAAABM8/xH3aC-hkkfY/s1600-h/georg+ratzinger+brother+pope+benedict+joseph%20ordination%20mass%20picture.jpg

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well what if your granny was sitting on your potentially large inheritance and refusing to kick the bucket. What if you were of low moral character but perfectly within the law convinced your granny that her life wasn't worth living, she was a burden. But you offer her a dignified exit via lethal injection. The fear is that the vulnerable will be bullied into euthanasia because attitudes will see it to be acceptable.

You keep saying these things are presume that everything that is wrong with the world is due to Godlessness!

Again, you're not saying anything of substance. Please start to sunstantiate what you're saying!

optogirl

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

His argument, whether right or wrong is that if there is no guiding principle or higher authority, then any act, even ones we consider particularly heinous, can be justified by a secular society. This is because there are no absolutes in moral relativism.

That argument is of no value whatsoever - the belief that moral code is only applicable as long as we believe there is a punishment coming after death is ridiculous. I am an atheist and this does not mean I have a cavalier attitude to crime or morality. The Pope is the leader of an organisation that perpetrates outdated ideas and victimises homosexuals, women and children. He should be regarded as such. They have shown nothing but contempt for women and children and their dogma is based on a bible based on ancient myths and chinese whispers. The wealth they have is actually disgusting and I for one can't wait to see the Catholic church and all religion die. It's happening already, just taking a long time. They dress up in their robes and finery and live off donations from the poor they lord over, while denying their own wrong-doings and claiming to be representative of a mean and dissinterested god. It makes my blood boil.

People are capable of living good and socially responsible lives without being told the consequence is a load of virgins in heaven or a roasting in hell.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? "

www.countmeout.ie

--Kaiser--

What a load of papal bull

MrStuffins

fakeaccent wrote: »

I'm no fan of Ratzinger but that picture is edited to be really misleading

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JRkgseRT7NY/S5mNSQLWH_I/AAAAAAAABM8/xH3aC-hkkfY/s1600-h/georg+ratzinger+brother+pope+benedict+joseph%20ordination%20mass%20picture.jpg

Unless someone in this thread created that picture i fail to see your point!

_feedback_

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well what if your granny was sitting on your potentially large inheritance and refusing to kick the bucket. What if you were of low moral character but perfectly within the law convinced your granny that her life wasn't worth living, she was a burden. But you offer her a dignified exit via lethal injection. The fear is that the vulnerable will be bullied into euthanasia because attitudes will see it to be acceptable.

Yeah that is a sticky one. So, how is the pope going to stop me from finishing her off?

fakeaccent

MrStuffins wrote: »

Unless someone in this thread created that picture i fail to see your point!

Ah well, all I'm saying is that commenting 'pot-kettle-black' and putting up the misleadingly edited image as proof of this is hardly valid.

This edited image has been doing the rounds on the internet as proof of Ratzinger as an adult doing the seig-heil, which it obviously is not

Nodin

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

His argument, whether right or wrong is that if there is no guiding principle or higher authority, then any act, even ones we consider particularly heinous, can be justified by a secular society.

Historically, virtually any and every act has been justified by a religous society. I'd suggest his 'holiness' be a bit more honest in his thinking.

For instance, when he talks about "the church" being slow to act on child abuse, why doesn't he say 'I, when in charge of clerical discipline for two decades or so, was slow to act'

MrStuffins

elviscostello wrote: »

Yeah that is a sticky one. So, how is the pope going to stop me from finishing her off?

World Tour? Lie about the Nazis and Atheism? Stop women becoming priests? Get rid of hemosexuals?

MrStuffins

fakeaccent wrote: »

Ah well, all I'm saying is that commenting 'pot-kettle-black' and putting up the misleadingly edited image as proof of this is hardly valid.

This edited image has been doing the rounds on the internet as proof of Ratzinger as an adult doing the seig-heil, which it obviously is not

It's a fact though, is it not, thah he was a member of Nazi Youth?

Anyway, this is besides the point!

oppenheimer1

MrStuffins wrote: »

You keep saying these things are presume that everything that is wrong with the world is due to Godlessness!

Again, you're not saying anything of substance. Please start to sunstantiate what you're saying!

Not godlessness but the Popes argument is that its because of moral relativism.

testicle

Because you've always wondered....

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs657.snc4/61710_1529638714768_1048727523_1559158_921873_n.jpg

Nodin

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Not godlessness but the Popes argument is that its because of moral relativism.

...which presumes that secularism = moral relativism.

fakeaccent

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's a fact though, is it not, thah he was a member of Nazi Youth?

Anyway, this is besides the point!

No one is debating that he was a member as a child. Anyway, it might be beside the point to you, but I was answering DonJose...

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Not godlessness but the Popes argument is that its because of moral relativism.

Well, he is mistaken my friend!

Any more unsubstantiated nonsense you'd like to throw into the thread? Maybe Volcanos are due to Godlessness?

MrStuffins

Nodin wrote: »

...which presumes that secularism = moral relativism.

He thinks he can get away with saying it, as long as he doesn't actually say it :rolleyes:

oppenheimer1

Nodin wrote: »

...which presumes that secularism = moral relativism.

Its a key concept in the philosophy of a moral athiest.

oppenheimer1

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well, he is mistaken my friend!

Any more unsubstantiated nonsense you'd like to throw into the thread? Maybe Volcanos are due to Godlessness?

Care to substantiate that yourself?

folan

is anyone else annoyed that the pope has a popemobile but he doesnt do any detective work?

jackiebaron

Didn't Benedict, Der PanzerKardinal, try to get some Spanish Fascist beatifed?
The guy's mad.

prinz

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's a fact though, is it not, thah he was a member of Nazi Youth?

It's also a fact that this was compulsory, his name was automatically added to the membership list on his 14th birthday, in that he had no choice in the matter.

Ratzinger was actually seconded as a teenager to an anti-aircraft battery unit. He deserted this unit and made his way on foot to his home which was behind American lines and turned himself over to them. The Ratzinger family were known to be anti-Nazi, and members of his own family ended up in Nazi death camps.

If you knew anthing about resistance to the Nazis you'd know about the likes of the White Rose organisation made up of students and young people...... the fellas were members of the Hitler Youth :eek: HJ membership is a worthless accusaton against people who were kids at the time.


As for the OP, the Pope did not compare atheists to the Nazis. Typical AH intentional word twisting. Getting farcical at this stage.

Sanjuro

This pretty much sums up everything we need to know about the Mouth of Sauron's Pope's latest views.

scientific1982

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest".

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Care to substantiate that yourself?

I'm not the one backing up my claims here Sir.

(Nor am i afraid to call the opinions i am expressing my own as you seem to be)

scientific1982

Pope palpatine should be arrested.

MrStuffins

scientific1982 wrote: »

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest".

Typical blood-thirsty Athiest! :pac:

optogirl

prinz wrote: »

As for the OP, the Pope did not compare atheists to the Nazis. Typical AH intentional word twisting. Getting farcical at this stage.

Well I don't know how far he would have had to go - perhaps a powerpoint presentation with ATHEISTS = NAZIS
Here is the actual transcript - the comparison is fairly clear
Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”

Nodin

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its a key concept in the philosophy of a moral athiest.

I'd suggest getting back to me later, after reading this....
http://mwillett.org/atheism/moralsource.htm

Biggins

scientific1982 wrote: »

Pope palpatine should be arrested.

:pac:

Every time I see him troop down past a line of guards or soldiers, I hear in my head Star Wars - The Imperial March.

Am I the only one or am I going nuts! :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8

prinz

optogirl wrote: »

..... atheist extremism ....

Are all atheists extremists now?

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

As for the OP, the Pope did not compare atheists to the Nazis. Typical AH intentional word twisting. Getting farcical at this stage.

Starbelgrade didn't say it, BBC News did!

prinz

MrStuffins wrote: »

Starbelgrade didn't say it, BBC News did!

..and there's plenty of people lapping it up without an ounce of thought.

Biggins

MrStuffins wrote: »

Starbelgrade didn't say it, BBC News did!

So did the Times, The Mail and many more.

MrStuffins

Just saw this pop up in my Facebook stream

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs342.ash2/62210_447746759016_67573689016_5277611_5054020_n.jpg

Sanjuro

Biggins wrote: »

:pac:

Every time I see him troop down past a line of guards or soldiers, I hear in my head Star Wars - The Imperial March.

Am I the only one or am I going nuts! :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

MrStuffins

Biggins wrote: »

So did the Times, The Mail and many more.

The Mail? Damn!

There goes our argument :P

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

..and there's plenty of people lapping it up without an ounce of thought.

Ok, so why don't you enlighten us as to what Herr Ratzinger actually meant?

prinz

MrStuffins wrote: »

Ok, so why don't you enlighten us as to what Herr Ratzinger actually meant?

What he meant is pretty clear when you read it actually. For some reason the word extremist got dropped between what Herr Ratzinger said and the thread title. What he said is a warning not to repeat the mistake of the past, not a sleight on Joe Bloggs atheist down the road.

There have been countless people issuing warnings about religious extremists recently. That's acceptable. No skin off mine. Warn about atheist extremism, suddenly it's a personal attack. See the double standards?

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

What he meant is pretty clear when you read it actually. For some reason the word extremist got dropped between what Herr Ratzinger said and the thread title.

I never said Extremeist!

You seem to have your finger on the pulse, why don't you tell me your spin on what he said? Come on! You seem to be able to tell us what he DIDN'T say!

rossie1977

http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/dougkrieger/times_and_seasons/hitler_leaving_church.JPG

MingulayJohnny

With all due respect to the seriousness of the harm that organised religion has inflicted on the world and esp children you have to appreciate the absurdity of it all sometimes. It's ugly , sinister , clandestine , oppressive and yet a great source of absurd humour.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/pope-congratulated-on-size-of-his-balls-201009173095/

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-%26-entertainment/pope-promises-live-witch%11burning-201009143086/

optogirl

prinz wrote: »

What he meant is pretty clear when you read it actually. For some reason the word extremist got dropped between what Herr Ratzinger said and the thread title. What he said is a warning not to repeat the mistake of the past, not a sleight on Joe Bloggs atheist down the road.

There have been countless people issuing warnings about religious extremists recently. That's acceptable. No skin off mine. Warn about atheist extremism, suddenly it's a personal attack. See the double standards?

Yes - it seems he is comparing atheism & secularism to Nazism.

The recent bout of calling people with strong faith in religion 'religious extremists' is no less vulgar and presumptious. The idea of terrorists being called 'Islamic Terrorists' associates all Muslims with the term - it would be like calling the IRA 'Catholic Terrorists'. You say, 'that's acceptable, no skin off mine'. Whose mouth are you putting these words in? Not mine or any other atheist I know. There is no double standard - as an atheist I have the right to be outraged by this old cretin making an outright sttement comparing secularism and Nazism.

MrStuffins

Hold on........... if Herr Ratzinger isn't a Nazi, how do you explain this picture of them on public transport together?

http://i54.tinypic.com/17cmee.jpg

prinz

optogirl wrote: »

Yes - it seems he is comparing EXTREMIST atheism & secularism to Nazism. Also where is the idea that Nazis were trying to eradicate god from society coming from? Just because they were a secular outfit does not mean they were trying to rid society of religion.

FYP by the way.

Perhaps you should study some history then, notably Nazi opinion towards anything uncontrolled by the State. 'Religion' was fine as long as it didn't conflict with Nazi ideals and towed the party line.

stimpson

prinz wrote: »

'Religion' was fine as long as it didn't conflict with Nazi ideals and towed the party line.

Which the RCC were more than happy to do.