Another Trip to Intershoot

Sparks

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Caveat emptor

Pedro, I think you've misunderstood the spirit of that phrase.
Caveat emptor applies in a marketplace where there is assumed to be absolutely no duty of care between buyer and seller post-sale. We've moved away from it in the western world though consumer rights and advertising rules and lawsuits against fraudulent sellers, and towards caveat venditor.

But more to the point, if it's caveat emptor for the buyer, then the seller has absolutely no right whatsoever to expect any form of support or loyalty from the buyer - caveat emptor implies that such an expectation is a nonsense.

If your local dealer is going to overcharge you as in ezridax's anecdote above, or worse yet, mislead you as to availability, suitability or other such easily-checkable pieces of information, then they are preying on the ignorance of neophytes and deserve absolutely no consideration or support whatsoever, and if other dealers show the gumption to step into the gap and provide a better service, then that's in the best interests of the shooting community as a whole really. I've lost track of how many times it's been said that there's basicly a market in Ireland that can support maybe five or six firearms dealers nationally; I'd rather they weren't the caveat emptor variety myself.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Pedro, I think you've misunderstood the spirit of that phrase.
Caveat emptor applies in a marketplace where there is assumed to be absolutely no duty of care between buyer and seller post-sale. We've moved away from it in the western world though consumer rights and advertising rules and lawsuits against fraudulent sellers, and towards caveat venditor.

IMHO, I've always interpreted caveat emptor as "As a buyer, beware of people ripping you off or selling you crap or not righting wrongs post-sale". I wouldn't agree that the increased controls on sellers are any sort of weakening of the basic tenet of caveat emptor. They're additions to the principle, not a replacement for it. Nothing should excuse the buyer from exercising their own judgement.


It's even less of an issue when there are so many RFDs available. If you feel you're being overcharged/mistreated then walk away. Unless you're particularly unlucky, there'll be another source for what you want.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

IMHO, I've always interpreted caveat emptor as "As a buyer, beware of people ripping you off or selling you crap or not righting wrongs post-sale". I wouldn't agree that the increased controls on sellers are any sort of weakening of the basic tenet of caveat emptor. They're additions to the principle, not a replacement for it. Nothing should excuse the buyer from exercising their own judgement.

Caveat emptor is a quasi-legal principle which implies that if you don't beware, tough. In other words, beyond certain limited legal rights (and this dates back a long way) you're on your own. It still applies nowadays, but the line beyond which lies grief for the buyer has moved considerably in their direction.

It's the commercial equivalent of "here be dragons"

mrbrianj

"Buyer beware" and threating it like buying a car, should not apply when dealing with firearms and RFDs in a small enough shooting community in a place the size of Ireland.

People are talking about supporting your local RFD, well thats a two way street -your custom should also be supported.

There are lots of car sales places, and lots of buyers so you cant compare that business - but the most sucessful in that trade deal in alot of repeat business.

at the same time, I personally, look on Tyrone as any other county, so would not have a problem filling in forms and driving a couple of hour if there was something there I wanted and could not get closer.

kildare.17hmr

I sell cars in a little village in kildare, id say about 40-50% of our sales are repeat business or recomendations from customers. Every single customer that comes through the door is treated in such a way that they leave happy wether or not they buy a car, when doing paperwork i always offer a coffe, if its raining i have a big umbrella in the office which i give to people ect and after sales service is very important too. Im not saying every business should do the same but a bit of courtasy, manners and valueing each customer goes a long way, especially these days

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

Pedro, I think you've misunderstood the spirit of that phrase.
Caveat emptor applies in a marketplace where there is assumed to be absolutely no duty of care between buyer and seller post-sale. We've moved away from it in the western world though consumer rights and advertising rules and lawsuits against fraudulent sellers, and towards caveat venditor.

But more to the point, if it's caveat emptor for the buyer, then the seller has absolutely no right whatsoever to expect any form of support or loyalty from the buyer - caveat emptor implies that such an expectation is a nonsense.

If your local dealer is going to overcharge you as in ezridax's anecdote above, or worse yet, mislead you as to availability, suitability or other such easily-checkable pieces of information, then they are preying on the ignorance of neophytes and deserve absolutely no consideration or support whatsoever, and if other dealers show the gumption to step into the gap and provide a better service, then that's in the best interests of the shooting community as a whole really. I've lost track of how many times it's been said that there's basicly a market in Ireland that can support maybe five or six firearms dealers nationally; I'd rather they weren't the caveat emptor variety myself.

I agree with your final para, but not fully with the remainder, although it’s a bit Cartesian. I fit in between the views of IRL Connor and rrpc.


I agree with you that in today’s marketplace caveat emptor is being watered down and there is a shift to caveat venditor due to consumer legislation. However, caveat emptor still exists as a legal principle. Ezri said:
His "friendly" local dealer that he has dealt with for years told him the rifle was "the last in the country" and will not be more in for a few months.
That statement formed part of the RFD’s offer and was a blatant misrepresentation. It is “fraud in inducement” because it is a misrepresentation in an attempt to get Ezri’s mate to enter into the contract to buy the rifle. Additionally, it probably is misrepresentation of a material fact (if Ezri’s mate knew that the same guns were available elsewhere & more cheaply, he would not have entered into the contract). Either way, in my view it gives adequate grounds to make the contract voidable or be the basis for rescission of the contract.

Caveat venditor would not apply IMO as that primarily relates to a buyer’s lack of sophistication i.e. technical knowledge & ‘fit for purpose’ – which was not the subject of discussion.

The guy has a rifle he wants and just paid a bit too much for it. It’s probably pennies a week over its useful life. If he really is pi$$ed off, he should go back to the dealer with a written quote for the same gun from another RFD and say that he is unhappy and disappointed with the misrepresentations and, if he wants more business ,a gesture (some boxes of ammo) would sweeten the relationship.

I agree that there is a huge lack of commercial morality in business which is largely to blame for landing this country in the mess it is in.

Rs
P.

pedroeibar1

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I sell cars in a little village in kildare, id say about 40-50% of our sales are repeat business or recomendations from customers. Every single customer that comes through the door is treated in such a way that they leave happy wether or not they buy a car, when doing paperwork i always offer a coffe, if its raining i have a big umbrella in the office which i give to people ect and after sales service is very important too. Im not saying every business should do the same but a bit of courtasy, manners and valueing each customer goes a long way, especially these days

Agreed - but usually the coffee is offered asap, to get the customer to stay and to give an opportunity to talk/sell to him/her.

As for not comparing selling cars to selling guns (Mr Brian J) it is immaterial; the law is the same whether it is the sale of coffee/guns/cars/biscuits.
P.

Sparks

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I agree that there is a huge lack of commercial morality in business which is largely to blame for landing this country in the mess it is in.

I don't think it even gets to morality to be honest, it's just plain stupidity to burn your own local market. One actually bad job and your name is going to be mud in our community, word spreads too far and too fast for any other outcome; so why any reasonably competent and intelligent dealer would actively go out of their way to make that happen - burning their business to the tune of several thousand euro a year for the sake of making a quick hundred euro or so in a single sale - it just buggers comprehension.

And the converse is true: how much do you think the positive advertising good dealers get on here is worth? Getting involved with a community almost always tends to create more revenue than it costs, and not just for businesses.

kildare.17hmr

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agreed - but usually the coffee is offered asap, to get the customer to stay and to give an opportunity to talk/sell to him/her.

Couldnt have people sitting into cars that have been valeted wit a coffee in hand;) But something ill keep in mind if you ever come through the gates:D

rrpc

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

His "friendly" local dealer that he has dealt with for years told him the rifle was "the last in the country" and will not be more in for a few months.
That statement formed part of the RFD’s offer and was a blatant misrepresentation. It is “fraud in inducement” because it is a misrepresentation in an attempt to get Ezri’s mate to enter into the contract to buy the rifle. Additionally, it probably is misrepresentation of a material fact (if Ezri’s mate knew that the same guns were available elsewhere & more cheaply, he would not have entered into the contract). Either way, in my view it gives adequate grounds to make the contract voidable or be the basis for rescission of the contract.

There's nothing to indicate whether or not the dealer knew there were others in the country though. It's quite possible that when he got his, it was the last one, but in the interim more came in and he wasn't made aware of that fact.

It could also be possible that new stock came in at a lower price, bulk discounts could have applied etc.

In other words, it's hard to prove misrepresentation and quite possible the dealer was speaking in good faith.

pedroeibar1

rrpc wrote: »

There's nothing to indicate whether or not the dealer knew there were others in the country though. It's quite possible that when he got his, it was the last one, but in the interim more came in and he wasn't made aware of that fact.

It could also be possible that new stock came in at a lower price, bulk discounts could have applied etc.

In other words, it's hard to prove misrepresentation and quite possible the dealer was speaking in good faith.

Quite. But, as the Spaniards say, si mi tia tuviera cojones seria mi tio.;)
P.

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

And the converse is true: how much do you think the positive advertising good dealers get on here is worth? Getting involved with a community almost always tends to create more revenue than it costs, and not just for businesses.

Revenue is fine, but profit is what counts. The positive comment here on any RFD is worth its weight in gold to him, but many would not recognise it. The dealers I know (very few) are lousy businessmen and became RFDs because it was the extension of a hobby more than the creation of a job. It also is a difficult business model to manage. Much of the activity is done afterhours, in a tightly controlled environment (legal/security requirements) and many RFD's are hyper-cautious about identity. Many have no notion about the web or site design and are ignoring that distribution channel. You’d have to wonder do they ever look at UK websites.
Darwin will rule untile we have just a handful left.
P.

mrbrianj

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agreed - but usually the coffee is offered asap, to get the customer to stay and to give an opportunity to talk/sell to him/her.

As for not comparing selling cars to selling guns (Mr Brian J) it is immaterial; the law is the same whether it is the sale of coffee/guns/cars/biscuits.
P.

I will have to get a securely fixed and lockable coffee jar, and the biscuits will be gone off by the time the licence comes through:D;)

Sorry I may not of been clear making my orginal point. Consumer law may be the same, but my point was that there are some differences to selling other products as most are not subject to the same controls and restrictions as firearms. There are a small number of RFDs suppling a pretty small market over a large geographical area, the RFDs business also relys on selling ammunition and other associated items over a long period of time to use with the gun you bought there.

The limited use of internet marketing also makes it difficult for people to check and compare.

rrpc

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Quite. But, as the Spaniards say, si mi tia tuviera cojones seria mi tio.;)
P.

I somehow doubt that Spaniards say that as regularly as we do

The salient point is that if someone is unsatisfied with a dealer's service or prices, it's best to bring that complaint back to him and see how he deals with it. If he's genuine, he'll explain his position and apologise and perhaps offer another discount, if not well he was given a chance and failed.

He certainly can't fiix something he doesn't know about.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

I somehow doubt that Spaniards say that as regularly as we do

The salient point is that if someone is unsatisfied with a dealer's service or prices, it's best to bring that complaint back to him and see how he deals with it. If he's genuine, he'll explain his position and apologise and perhaps offer another discount, if not well he was given a chance and failed.

He certainly can't fiix something he doesn't know about.

If he buys a scope for a grand , and tries to sell it for 2 grand; he knows !;)

By the way Intershoot, if you are reading this, sorry for this thread going off on a tangent


The next time I go North, I must get a tour of DRPC

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If he buys a scope for a grand , and tries to sell it for 2 grand; he knows !;)

Who are you talking about? Nobody mentioned such a deal on this thread so far and how do you know how much this hypothetical person paid for this hypothetical scope?

pedroeibar1

rrpc wrote: »

I somehow doubt that Spaniards say that as regularly as we do

The salient point is that if someone is unsatisfied with a dealer's service or prices, it's best to bring that complaint back to him and see how he deals with it. If he's genuine, he'll explain his position and apologise and perhaps offer another discount, if not well he was given a chance and failed.

He certainly can't fiix something he doesn't know about.

Agreed. I more or less said the same thing a few posts back.
As for the Spanish idiom, maybe you just hang out with the polite ones and don't hear it too often?:p;)
P.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Who are you talking about? Nobody mentioned such a deal on this thread so far and how do you know how much this hypothetical person paid for this hypothetical scope?

You were referring to "dealers" not knowing that their competitors were cheaper so the onus was on the client to tell the dealer.

As I said, if a dealer "Any" Dealer buys something fo x€ and tries to sell it for 4X€; Then he knows

I never mentioned any person. Just facts, Everyone has paid over the odds down the years on firearms, especially before the Internet!!

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You were referring to "dealers" not knowing that their competitors were cheaper so the onus was on the client to tell the dealer.

As I said, if a dealer "Any" Dealer buys something fo x€ and tries to sell it for 4X€; Then he knows

I never mentioned any person. Just facts, Everyone has paid over the odds down the years on firearms, especially before the Internet!!

You need to be re-acquainted with the meaning of the word 'fact'. What you're doing is guessing.

And please stop exaggerating. First you're suggesting a 100% mark up and now you've increased that to 300%. You want to make sweeping allegations about dealers, it would help if you were realistic.

Some of the ammo price differentials you've quoted here aren't anywhere near the order of the mark ups you allege here.

And why pick on the dealers? There's a chain of supply that stretches a long way back and any or all parts of that are invisible to you. That's why the customer should come back because if the dealer's supplier is gouging him, he needs to know about it.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

You need to be re-acquainted with the meaning of the word 'fact'. What you're doing is guessing.

And please stop exaggerating. First you're suggesting a 100% mark up and now you've increased that to 300%. You want to make sweeping allegations about dealers, it would help if you were realistic.

Some of the ammo price differentials you've quoted here aren't anywhere near the order of the mark ups you allege here.

And why pick on the dealers? There's a chain of supply that stretches a long way back and any or all parts of that are invisible to you. That's why the customer should come back because if the dealer's supplier is gouging him, he needs to know about it.

Fact RRPC, Happened to me! I'm not ashamed to admit it either, as I learned from it big time. I won't name and shame dealer.

And do you honestly think dealers don't read boards?;)

intershoot

HOLY ****..........I've just seen this thread :rolleyes:

To be honest Tackleberrywho.........its the missus gives you the cake , sadly if it was up to me (as you may have guessed on your last visit-bloody cows!) I wouldnt get fed, never mind anyone else.

Hospitality, common sense, and driving all over Ireland with my own work would indicate that anyone who drives the distance you did would be glad of a cup of tea. I also know as a part-time dealer I may have more time on my hands to do things like this than most other dealers I know.

Primarily I am a shooter, target shooter as a matter of fact. I only got into this game as we would generally have to travel to the UK or Germany to get decent gear without being reamed here. I also understand that as target gear is such a small part of most dealer's business they arnt really interested in stocking it, and that is fine, it gives me an opening to sell value for money items without slitting anyones throat.

I appreciate the support, and as long as she's about there will always be a cup of tea after a long run!!

If anyone needs any help or advice you have my email.

Regards,

sam@intershoot.co.uk

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Fact RRPC, Happened to me! I'm not ashamed to admit it either, as I learned from it big time. I won't name and shame dealer.

You don't have to, the point here is (1) you can't possibly know what the dealer paid (unless he showed you the invoice) and (2) Your grasp of margins and mark-ups is tenuous at best.

And do you honestly think dealers don't read boards?;)

Did I say that? Please point out where I did.

+1 to Intershoot's post. It's target shooters on this island that are the worst served. Only for him and a couple of others there'd be nothing available for us.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

You don't have to, the point here is (1) you can't possibly know what the dealer paid (unless he showed you the invoice) and (2) Your grasp of margins and mark-ups is tenuous at best.

I saw an invoice
As I made a few phone calls to a few collegues I have in the "the know".

I showed the dealer the price and suddenly the price dropped in a heartbeat

My Grasp of Mark ups is quite good.