Sonnen tests postive for PED's after 117

Devastator

ScareGilly wrote: »

I don't see how saying Sonnen is the best MW in the world is being ridiculous, wasn't he beating the man everyone ranked as number 1 for 23 minutes?

who won though?

ScareGilly

dunkamania wrote: »

As far as rankings goes, I think you have to take in a decent sized body of work to support your view. While Sonnen was winning convincingly against Silva until he was subbed, if you look back over his other losses, you see that 8 of his 11 losses have come from submissions(although the Paulo Filho armbar was questionable), usually in fights that he was winning up until he got caught. Difficult to call him #1 ranked MW in my view

I definitely wouldn't call him number one, as I've said I don't call anyone the top fighter in the world... He really needs to work on his JJ though, he's said that he doesn't need it to win but I'm sure, like most people, you'd disagree

Devastator wrote: »

who won though?

I wouldn't go so far as to say thats a redundant argument.. But Silva was dominating Ryo Chonan until he got caught with that heel hook.. Would you say Ryo Chonan is a better fighter than Anderson? Thought not..
Hmm, Eddie 'Fatman' Sanchez bet Cro Cop, suppose that makes him better than Mirko?
Forrest has beaten Shogun, so he's better than the current LHW Champ? Don't think so mate..

Devastator

ScareGilly wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say thats a redundant argument.. But Silva was dominating Ryo Chonan until he got caught with that heel hook.. Would you say Ryo Chonan is a better fighter than Anderson? Thought not..
Hmm, Eddie 'Fatman' Sanchez bet Cro Cop, suppose that makes him better than Mirko?
Forrest has beaten Shogun, so he's better than the current LHW Champ? Don't think so mate..

to be honest that sounds like such a childish arguement IMO.

The discussion was re: the title holder & no.1 challenger. Your trying to claim the loser is better, I disagree, fact is Silva won no matter how many minutes Sonnen lay on top on him.

The last time I heard someone coming back with an arguement like yours was when I was in school "Such and whatever football team beat the other team so they're better" ..... I thought it was ridiculous then and I still think the same now.

At no point in this thread did I think it would come down to this.

Fact is a cheating drug taker got beat.

Mellor

MrStuffins wrote: »

PEDs are Performance Enhancing Drugs, they enhance your performance, the clue is in the name. They are illegal for this reason.

if you need to ask how they improve your performance, then your argument is already invalid.

I'm not disagring with you. But I'd be interested to hear how others (not just you btw Stuffins) think that PEDs taken by Sonnen work? How, exactly, did they enhance his proformance.


Just curious as I've heard a lot different opinions and ideas, including some outright nonsense.

Devastator

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not disagring with you. But I'd be interested to hear how others (not just you btw Stuffins) think that PEDs taken by Sonnen work? How, exactly, did they enhance his proformance.


Just curious as I've heard a lot different opinions and ideas, including some outright nonsense.

It would be a matter of opinion on how exactly they worked.

The way I see it, if Sonner thought in his own mind that he was good enough to beat Silva he would not have taken anything

Plastikman_eire

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not disagring with you. But I'd be interested to hear how others (not just you btw Stuffins) think that PEDs taken by Sonnen work? How, exactly, did they enhance his proformance.
.

They'd have helped his body to recover faster after training, allowing him to train more then someone who wasn't juicing. Allowing him become a stronger, faster, more conditioned and better practiced version of himself.

Thats the thing with PED's they arent magic beans, you still need to put the work in.

MrStuffins

Your entire argument here is just silly! You keep digging yourself hole after hole! Your logic is completely flawed!

Silva is the No.1 because he has beaten every MW he has stepped in against in the UFC, the same can not be said for Chael Sonnen i'm afraid!

Nobody has beaten Silva yet in the UFC, and there is no other MW in the world who can claim what he can claim, so he remains No.1.

ScareGilly wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say thats a redundant argument.. But Silva was dominating Ryo Chonan until he got caught with that heel hook.. Would you say Ryo Chonan is a better fighter than Anderson? Thought not..

Not at all, but on the night, yes he was!

Hmm, Eddie 'Fatman' Sanchez bet Cro Cop, suppose that makes him better than Mirko?

At what? Football?

In case you didn't notice, Mirko chased Eddie around the cage and KO'd him within a round.

Forrest has beaten Shogun, so he's better than the current LHW Champ? Don't think so mate..

Perhaps not now, but yes, on the night he was the better fighter.

Logical Fallacy

Devastator wrote: »

It would be a matter of opinion on how exactly they worked.

The way I see it, if Sonner thought in his own mind that he was good enough to beat Silva he would not have taken anything

No it wouldn't, it would be science.

PED's aren't random, depending on what you take they would have had a known outcome.

The benefits would have been anywhere from allowing a greater work load in training, great volume of training, faster recovery to even improving cardio depending on what he had done.

Science.

ScareGilly

Devastator wrote: »

to be honest that sounds like such a childish arguement IMO.

The discussion was re: the title holder & no.1 challenger. Your trying to claim the loser is better, I disagree, fact is Silva won no matter how many minutes Sonnen lay on top on him.

The last time I heard someone coming back with an arguement like yours was when I was in school "Such and whatever football team beat the other team so they're better" ..... I thought it was ridiculous then and I still think the same now.

Devastator wrote: »

who won though?

You seem to be confusing my post with your own? My argument would've been along the lines of "Such and whatever football team got 68 shots on target, hit the woodwork 6 times, had 95% possession and only had the ball in their half once. But the other team scored with their first real move,the first time they had the ball in the opposition half, they had barely gotten the ball at all up to then, and even then, the keeper should've saved it so that means they're better than the other team.."
Sorry Pot, you seem to be calling a water heating apparatus a certain colour there?

Silva is the No.1 because he has beaten every MW he has stepped in against in the UFC, the same can not be said for Chael Sonnen i'm afraid!

Once again, notice I've never said Sonnen was number 1, I've said that rankings have no place in MMA as there's too much possibilities..

Nobody has beaten Silva yet in the UFC, and there is no other MW in the world who can claim what he can claim, so he remains No.1.

And again, if he beats Vitor, Okami and Chael again then I'll agree with you And if Paulo Filho is back to his best by then he'll have to beat him too..

Not at all, but on the night, yes he was!

Have you watched the fight? Chonan was getting absolutely demolished before that, See my above post about "Such and whatever football team"...

In case you didn't notice, Mirko chased Eddie around the cage and KO'd him within a round.

Whoops, my bad, was thinking of Gonzaga, couldn't remember who it was that knocked him senseless with that kick

cardio,shoot me

ScareGilly wrote: »

Whoops, my bad, was thinking of Gonzaga, couldn't remember who it was that knocked him senseless with that kick

gonzaga was dominating the entire fight, he is a better fighter than cro cop....

MrStuffins

ScareGilly, you say "Rankings have no place"..........

Well then whats the point? The whole point of every sport is to see who is the best! This is why there are championships.

Silva is the champion of the UFC, where the vast majority of the world's best fight (and the rest want to fight). Therefore, he is the No.1 guy in the world.

UNTIL Belfort, Chael, or whoever else you wanna name beat him, he is still best!

Case closed!

(ps: Yes, i think Gonzaga is a better fighter than Cro Cop)

Devastator

ScareGilly wrote: »

You seem to be confusing my post with your own? My argument would've been along the lines of "Such and whatever football team got 68 shots on target, hit the woodwork 6 times, had 95% possession and only had the ball in their half once. But the other team scored with their first real move,the first time they had the ball in the opposition half, they had barely gotten the ball at all up to then, and even then, the keeper should've saved it so that means they're better than the other team.."
Sorry Pot, you seem to be calling a water heating apparatus a certain colour there?

What a nonsense post. My question "who won tho?" was a direct question between the fighters in question(Silva & Sonnen) :rolleyes:

I'm not even going to bother replying to any more of your bollocks posts.


Fact is Sonnen = Cheat

TheProdigy

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

gonzaga was dominating the entire fight, he is a better fighter than cro cop....

Its a matter of opinion but yes he is actually!

MrStuffins

TheProdigy wrote: »

Its a matter of opinion but yes he is actually!

Agreed. Gonzage, in my opinion, has better stand-up AND ground than Mirko.

The only thing you'd give the edge to Mirko on is kicking but, after how their fight ended, that's debatable

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

Agreed. Gonzage, in my opinion, has better stand-up AND ground than Mirko.

The only thing you'd give the edge to Mirko on is kicking but, after how their fight ended, that's debatable

I assume we're talkng right now, rather then prime crocop?

MrStuffins

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

I assume we're talkng right now, rather then prime crocop?

yes absolutely!

Mellor

Devastator wrote: »

It would be a matter of opinion on how exactly they worked.

The way I see it, if Sonner thought in his own mind that he was good enough to beat Silva he would not have taken anything

This was exactly the point I hoping somebody would mention.
He didn't just "take something" for the Silva fight. He didn't decide during that week to get some magic skill booster pills for the fight.

He was most likely taking them for training and not the fight. PED is a bit of a misnomer. They wouldn't have a huge affect (i'm not saying now btw) for the fight alone, the benefit is all the training you put in, faster recovery allows more training, more strength gains, the testosterone here would help, he'd shed fat easier and put on muscle, so he could fight at a lower LBM.

All of this is huge. And pretty obviously cheating. He still needs to work, but that's irrelevant.

Arguing over who is the best in the world, and if or not his skill increased (which is didn't) from the PEDs is pointless. As is the fact that all the PEDs in the world wouldn't give anyone here a shot at Silva.
That is not the point.

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

I assume we're talkng right now, rather then prime crocop?

I assumed he was talking about the fact that since that kick, CroCop has gone fights without a head kick knockout.
Gonzaga quite clearly stole CroCops kicks :D

Plastikman_eire

Mellor wrote: »

I assumed he was talking about the fact that since that kick, CroCop has gone fights without a head kick knockout.
Gonzaga quite clearly stole CroCops kicks :D

The kicks came free with Mirko's soul. Like the toy in a happy meal.

MrStuffins

Mellor wrote: »

I assumed he was talking about the fact that since that kick, CroCop has gone fights without a head kick knockout.
Gonzaga quite clearly stole CroCops kicks :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzMM9kfU8-Q

kid chaos

Devastator wrote: »

about 90% of the post you were replying to was probably meant to wind people up, which is why everyone else has choose to ignore it

Ignore Kongo??
http://www.mmamania.com/2010/10/14/1752246/cheick-kongo-50-percent-of-mma-fighters-take-steroids

MrStuffins

kid chaos wrote: »

Ignore Kongo??
http://www.mmamania.com/2010/10/14/1752246/cheick-kongo-50-percent-of-mma-fighters-take-steroids

Nowhere in that article does it say 90% of UFC fighters are on PEDs!

kid chaos

MrStuffins wrote: »

Nowhere in that article does it say 90% of UFC fighters are on PEDs!

like i said, 90% was probably a bit high but no less than 50%

MrStuffins

kid chaos wrote: »

like i said, 90% was probably a bit high but no less than 50%

You are saying that no less than 50% of the fighter in the UFC are on PEDs just because Denis Hallman and Chieck Kongo said it?

Do you have any proof? Only rumours?

I think this kinda discussion belongs in the Conspiracy Theory forum where they all like to cling to a rumour and mould it into "fact"

kid chaos

MrStuffins wrote: »

You are saying that no less than 50% of the fighter in the UFC are on PEDs just because Denis Hallman and Chieck Kongo said it?

Do you have any proof? Only rumours?

I think this kinda discussion belongs in the Conspiracy Theory forum where they all like to cling to a rumour and mould it into "fact"

you are right, it is only rumours and there is no proof.

TheProdigy

TheProdigy wrote: »

I'm always preaching how steroids are alot more common in MMA than people think, there is alot of stuff out there not being detected because the commision haven't already identified it so nothing shows up abnormal. Even Nate Diaz had a recent interview where he said that people should be surprised when a fighter is clean and that everyone uses some sort of enhancer. Some may not think of him as a very credible source but BJ Penn previously mentioned how common enhancers are in MMA.

Hopefully the influx of fighters preaching about PED use will lead to greater measures by various commisions to identify performance enhancing substances which are currently undetectable. This is the fundamental reason to why many fighters, not sure percentage wise, are getting away with using these substances.

MrStuffins

TheProdigy wrote: »

Hopefully the influx of fighters preaching about PED use will lead to greater measures by various commisions to identify performance enhancing substances which are currently undetectable. This is the fundamental reason to why many fighters, not sure percentage wise, are getting away with using these substances.

Well.... if they could detect it..... it wouldn't be undetectable would it?

TheProdigy

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well.... if they could detect it..... it wouldn't be undetectable would it?

Yes, hence why I stated that hopefully there will be "greater measures by various commisions to identify performance enhancing substances which are currently undetectable", ie. more scientific research into substances which are performance enhancers but not realised yet.

MrStuffins

TheProdigy wrote: »

Yes, hence why I stated that hopefully there will be "greater measures by various commisions to identify performance enhancing substances which are currently undetectable", ie. more scientific research into substances which are performance enhancers but not realised yet.

I understand, but the problem here is, there are scientists on both sides.

As quickly as these undetectables become detectable, new ones are cropping up!

DeVore

Chael Sonnen's twitter has been strangely quiet since this happened.... has anyone seen any response from him anywhere?

DeV.

MrStuffins

DeVore wrote: »

Chael Sonnen's twitter has been strangely quiet since this happened.... has anyone seen any response from him anywhere?

DeV.

He hasn't responded at all........ for someone so vocal you'd think he's speak up. Also, if i was innocent i'd be everywhere i could telling my story!

But i guess silence does not make a guilty man!

What does make him guilty is admission of guilt and 2 failed tests :P

I can't wait to hear what he has to say for himself at his hearing!

Fozzy

Dave Meltzer has written in the Wrestling Observer a couple of times that he had a conversation with a fighter from a top gym who would know which fighters in his gym are taking PEDs. He said he went through all the name guys in that gym and the figure they got at the end was 50% of them were on something

I think that it's incredibly naive to think that in a sport where the drug testing is very easily beatable that the idea of half of the guys taking something illegal is thought of as inconceivable

MrStuffins

Fozzy wrote: »

Dave Meltzer has written in the Wrestling Observer a couple of times that he had a conversation with a fighter from a top gym who would know which fighters in his gym are taking PEDs. He said he went through all the name guys in that gym and the figure they got at the end was 50% of them were on something

I think that it's incredibly naive to think that in a sport where the drug testing is very easily beatable that the idea of half of the guys taking something illegal is thought of as inconceivable

I never said it was inconceivable.

However, i DO think that, whatever way you look at it, 50% is a MASSIVE number!

Mellor

MrStuffins wrote: »

You are saying that no less than 50% of the fighter in the UFC are on PEDs just because Denis Hallman and Chieck Kongo said it?

I personally doubt that its 50%.

But, looking at it in a different way. I don't think Bisping, Rampage and the rest would of been too happy with his comments, doesn't say much for them really.

MrStuffins wrote: »

I understand, but the problem here is, there are scientists on both sides.

As quickly as these undetectables become detectable, new ones are cropping up!

Being undetectable isn't really as big a deal as people make out.
A lot of the people who "test positive", for example Sonnen, don't actually get caugth with subtances x or y in their system, but rather the affects of the substance. Which is why WADA brought in limits for levels of testosterone and RBCs etc