Roche to Progress ?

themandan6611

After a fantastic Veulta and an excellent TDF do people think Nico will progress into a genuine major tour contender in the next 2-3 seasons ?.

This year he has grinded away and being very consistent but can he bring it to the next level ?

titan18

I don't think so.He's a good rider but his time trialing ain't strong enough and he can't live with the best in the high mountains.He'll never be able to live with the likes of Contador etc when they kick.I think he can be a consistent top 10 finisher,possibly top 5 on a less mountainous tour.

Slideshowbob

why are people obsessed with predicting the future

just wait and see and enjoy following him?

who would of thought a few years back he would make top ten in a GT

buffalo

titan18 wrote: »

I don't think so.He's a good rider but his time trialing ain't strong enough and he can't live with the best in the high mountains.He'll never be able to live with the likes of Contador etc when they kick.I think he can be a consistent top 10 finisher,possibly top 5 on a less mountainous tour.

He admitted in his diary that he rarely practices his time trialling, so there's much room and potential for improvement there.

If he can address that (together with the impending purchase of a power meter) maybe we'll see a significantly better rider next season.

themandan6611

Slideshowbob wrote: »

why are people obsessed with predicting the future

just wait and see and enjoy following him?

who would of thought a few years back he would make top ten in a GT

lol, hardly "obsessed" in asking a question :rolleyes: and whats wrong with wondering with might be in any sport ????? - its all about the future!!

ednwireland

Slideshowbob wrote: »

why are people obsessed with predicting the future

just wait and see and enjoy following him?

who would of thought a few years back he would make top ten in a GT

cos its an internet discussion forum

all us sad wannabees have to talk about something

c montgomery

ednwireland wrote: »

cos its an internet discussion forum

all us cycling fans need to talk about something

Fixed that for ya;)

nitrogen

I suppose it's down to the question: to dope or not to dope.

leftism

Very surprised when i read that Nico is only starting to use a power meter for training now. I would have thought that all top pro teams would be constantly analysing that sort of data in training/competition etc.

Putting some serious focus on training for the TT may reap rewards alright but i don't think he'll ever be up there in the Andy Schleck or Contador ranks. Podium in the Vuelta could be possible a few years down the line if he really works on his TT and tries to improve his climbing even further (which in fairness seems to have come on a lot this season).

One things for sure, its really great having an Irish rider up there fighting at the top end of the GC... I was too young to remember the golden years of the 80's!

Chips Lovell

I don't think it's impossible. But as you get closer to the top, every progression becomes harder. He's improved significantly the last few seasons and he's young enough to improve further.

I think the last couple of seasons he's focussed a lot on managing his weight and his climbing and that's really paid off. He probably needs to put some work into his time trialling now. Forget the power meter for a minute (loads of pros don't use one), he doesn't even have a TT bike at home to train on.

ednwireland

i think ag2r need a chef as well

from his diary for the last stage

At 11.30, the team went down for lunch of pasta and rice, or so we thought. The hotel had nothing arranged for us though, so we had to have more bowls of cereal to stock up for the stage ahead. On the start line, they passed around trays of miniature cakes to everyone in the peloton, which helped fill the gap.

72hundred

nitrogen wrote: »

I suppose it's down to the question: to dope or not to dope.

Oh GTFO.

uberwolf

seems like very unsophisticated nutrition tbh. In combination with not practising TT's, no power meter, mutinous team mates...

is he being looked after correctly?

c montgomery

uberwolf wrote: »

seems like very unsophisticated nutrition tbh. In combination with not practising TT's, no power meter, mutinous team mates...

is he being looked after correctly?

I tend to agree. After reading all of his diaries in the indo i think that his team could be alot more professional.

Not having a TT at home to train on.
Not having meals arranged before stages.
Not having the support of all him team in TDF.
No HR monitor for TT

I doubt this happens in radioshack, astana etc..

When these events can be decided by seconds all of these little things can add up. For Roche to improve he will need his team to up their game.

ROK ON

Nico races for a kissmearse team of journeymen.
Despite that and a relatively unscientific approach to training and prep he has achieved a great deal.

With further preparation analysis and training I feel he is close to that ellusive big victory.
It goes to show that he must be a very hard and motivated worker and a pretty talanted athlete.

For his own sake he should consider moving to a team that treats race prep more seriously.
A lot done more to do.

As a contrast his cousin often talks about how at Garmin the behind the scenes setup of training, resting, diet, ttaining, equipment, medical support and race planning is exceptional.
Cavendish always says the same re Columbia.

Roche seems to have what it takes, but can do more to improve his chances.

neris

I would have thought that as a pro cyclist the one thing he wouldnt be short of is a supply of bikes.

Hungrycol

His Pappy should know better than to let Nico away with no TT training or even having a TT bike at home. Never mind the scientific power meters, he's gotta have the equipment to train on. Not sure if he's better then Contador or A Schleck but he is better than the likes Biggins, F Schleck, Vino, Sastre, Evans and a whole host of other well respected high earning pro riders.

griffin100

I think he's done fantastic this year but he's got a bit of a problem now. He needs a better / bigger team and everything that goes along with that set up but if he were to move to one of the top teams he would probbaly be playing second fiddle in the major tours to the team leader (Schleck, Contador, etc). To stay as a team leader he probably needs to look at some of the 'second' tier teams. It's a tough call. Even with an average team like AG2R he was only a decent time trail away from the podium of one of the big tours; huge respect.

nitrogen

72hundred wrote: »

Oh GTFO.

Not the most articulate response for even mentioning the elephant in the peleton.

Peterx

nitrogen wrote: »

Not the most articulate response for even mentioning the elephant in the peleton.

The thread title enquires about how Roche might progress. Taking illegal drugs would not be a progression.
If he started taking drugs and was caught it would break the hearts of many who have been impessed by the honesty of his diary and the bravery of his efforts.

Anyway - Back to progression, He's in a hard place now though, a move to a stronger team might preclude his GC chances but maybe a year or two as a one day specialist might be no harm before re-focusing on the grand tour GC?

nitrogen

Peterx wrote: »

The thread title enquires about how Roche might progress. Taking illegal drugs would not be a progression.
If he started taking drugs and was caught it would break the hearts of many who have been impessed by the honesty of his diary and the bravery of his efforts.

Anyway - Back to progression, He's in a hard place now though, a move to a stronger team might preclude his GC chances but maybe a year or two as a one day specialist might be no harm before re-focusing on the grand tour GC?

I'm not for a second suggesting he has or that he think about doping. But I'm a skeptic and don't really believe drugs have disappeared from the sport. So if any of the GC contenders are dirty, it's not going to be easy to leave them behind in the Alps.

Therefore I don't think I'm off topic as unfortunately the guy is in a sport where sadly questions will always be asked about TDF winners.

levitronix

I agree a better team would help but if signs on a better team he might not get to ride the way he wants to ride, best option would be strengthen up AG2 id imagine and let him ride a grand tour as team captain

But id love to see him go for a few stage wins

Morrisseeee

I presume it would be advisable to leave 'drugs' out of this discussion and concentrate on what he should do next year, ie. to progress even further. If he did 'really well' in the Worlds this year, it might open a few doors !!
From following his diary, he states that this year was a learning year, one where he just wanted to see how far he could push himself, and I guess he has done that & learned alot along the way aswell. I'm also guessing that he will sit down with his close team (family/father/etc) and work out a more opportunistic plan for next year, one where he will concentrate all his efforts to win, the Giro or Vuelta maybe, and take the TDF easy and go for a stage win, making everybody happy

mumfordandsons

i think roche has done really well to finish with highest place in major tour since sean kelly 1988. Iam sure he himself is aware and knows what he needs to go up the next step. I also hope people can get behind and support irish man (yes irish) doing so well, it is sad i think to see some reply's ect here . it's good watch major race again and have a irish man up there , makes it so much better to watch and i have waited along time to see it again!!!

Chips Lovell

Sad?

carter3

As a non-cyclist, but big fan of the TDF I have really enjoyed his diary this year. gives a brilliant insight into how tough a sport it is.

Think he will improve a lot for next year with the few changes he still has to make. I think also his teammates have made the transition now to believing in him and wanting to work for him.
I think ultimately the Contadors/Schlecks seem to have a another gear in the mountains but a top five GC finish in the TDF would be a great achievement.

He has mentioned a few times he sacrifices going for stage wins in favour of GC position. I think if he won a few stages in the TDF his profile in Ireland would grow massively.

dave2pvd

mumfordandsons wrote: »

i think roche has done really well to finish with highest place in major tour since sean kelly 1988. Iam sure he himself is aware and knows what he needs to go up the next step. I also hope people can get behind and support irish man (yes irish) doing so well, it is sad i think to see some reply's ect here . it's good watch major race again and have a irish man up there , makes it so much better to watch and i have waited along time to see it again!!!

That's a strange statement on a number of fronts.

I was pretty shocked by the lack of TT prep. I have teammates that are more prepared for TTs than Roche - and that's according to him. Incidentally, I race with an amateur team.

Based on his diary, I am left totally puzzled by what he reports eating during the 2 Grand Tours. FFS, he got the bonk on Le Tour. Is there no dietitian or sports nutrition expert on Ag2r? Baffling.

Despite those 2 criticisms, I am delighted to see him up there, so close to the podium. His diary appears to be very raw - he seems to have considerable editorial control of what he says. Makes me think Bernard is not reading it. Makes for fantastic insight into how a team works and what goes on during the race.

His sheer toughness is downright inspiring. There's a lot I'd give for just a fraction of it.



(see mumfordandsons, I am criticizing and complimenting at the same time; they're not mutually exclusive).

mumfordandsons

dave2pvd wrote: »

That's a strange statement on a number of fronts.

I was pretty shocked by the lack of TT prep. I have teammates that are more prepared for TTs than Roche - and that's according to him. Incidentally, I race with an amateur team.

Based on his diary, I am left totally puzzled by what he reports eating during the 2 Grand Tours. FFS, he got the bonk on Le Tour. Is there no dietitian or sports nutrition expert on Ag2r? Baffling.

Despite those 2 criticisms, I am delighted to see him up there, so close to the podium. His diary appears to be very raw - his seems to have considerable editorial control of what he says. Makes me think Bernard is not reading it. Makes for fantastic insight into how a team works and what goes on during the race.

His sheer toughness is downright inspiring. There's a lot I'd give for just a fraction of it.



(see mumfordandsons, I am criticizing and complimenting at the same time; they're not mutually exclusive).

"(see mumfordandsons, I am criticizing and complimenting at the same time; they're not mutually exclusive)."

well aware of that dave2pvd . each to their own my friend.

you should write a book. criticizing and complimenting in the same few lines!?
what next .

rothar man

Good timely thread and from reading alll of the posts, i would to tag along with views of el tonto....

v sad that d..gs have even been mentioned as soon as we've rediscoved a home grown star, who outside of the mainstay cycling nations Spanish/French/Italaian...he's a household name

even earlier in the season when he was forced into cross training for a period before TDF he came out in super shape and had a geat tour quickly followed by the best GC result we've seen in 20 years

but in looking at things for the future i would have to go back to a phrase i once heard about golfers ' its easier to get your handicap down from 20 to 3 than it is to get from 3 to 0' ....i think Roche is defo a strong 3 but i m sure how much there is left for the GT's but would be amazing to win a spring classic

uberwolf

comments to shane stokes via irishcycling.com allude to one of the issues raised here.

Q: The time trial is one area where you have said that you want to improve. You’ve also said that you don’t have a TT bike at home…I presume that is something you will sort out soon?

A: Yes, I think it is one of the most important details to help progress, to have a TT bike at home. I think most of the riders do. French teams are not the best for that yet, but slowly but surely.

sy

The more I read about this young talented man the more intrigued I become. My view is that Roche drifted into pro-cycling not really believing he had what it takes and it was only after his great ride in the 2008 Vuelta that he began to believe that he might just be good at this sport. When I first heard that Stephen Roche's son was turning pro I thought her we go, another offspring trying to emulate the great father etc. It is very rare that this type of story has a fairytale ending but now I'm having second thoughts. Roche has surprised me with his climbing ability especially in this years Vuelta. He seems to get stronger as the 3 weeks progress and this is probably the most important asset you need to win a Grande Tour assuming you can climb and TT!. I was shocked when I read tonto's link saying he had no TT bike!
I'm really looking forward to next season but winning the TDF in the next few years might just be a step too far(I hope I'm wrong) however a Vuelta is within his capabilities.

On another note Kelly was 27 when he won his first classic and I still think Roche should target the hilly classics like Liege or Lombardy(good bet this year) San Sebastian with a couple of shorter tours like Paris Nice,Romandie or Tour Switzerland . The guy has a great future and will be head hunted by the bigger teams but I think he should stay put for another year and work on his TT and climbing.

I reckon we will know this time next year where his real strengths and ambitions lie. Allez Nicolas!

Slideshowbob

just to throw spanner in works - everyone think roche is clean?

RobFowl

Slideshowbob wrote: »

just to throw spanner in works - everyone think roche is clean?

English speaking cyclists never dope

Slideshowbob

RobFowl wrote: »

English speaking cyclists never dope

well that aint true - so ........

can i read something into ur response?

Captain Havoc

JacksonHeightsOwn

Slideshowbob wrote: »

just to throw spanner in works - everyone think roche is clean?

100% certain he's clean IMO

Slideshowbob

with all due respect, and really wanting to believe he is clean as a fellow irishman, and with me playing devils advocate, can i ask what evidence allows you to form such opinion?

what does a facepalm mean? what does a double facepalm mean?

thanks

DirkVoodoo

What evdence do you have to suggest he might not be clean? Or is it guilty until proven innocent in the wacky world of Slideshowbob?

Lumen

Slideshowbob wrote: »

what does a facepalm mean? what does a double facepalm mean?

In this context the facepalm is broadly synonymous with a whoosh parrot, except with added despair.

A double facepalm expresses the same feelings, except double. Think of two whoosh parrots in a mid-air collision.

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

whoosh parrot,

?

Bob raises an interesting point re doping. I think the answer is that we simply dont know. It is a reasonable question however given that his dad is suspected of having been among the first generation of pro cyclists to allegedly use EPO.

I guess there has been a few points about Roche Jnr, (1) there has been no smoke, (2) as he is climbing up the rankings in the races he partakes in he is being tested more frequently - 5 times at the Vuelta IIRC.

I hope that the testing is doing waht it is supposed to and I hope the Nico doesnt dope. I have no way of knowing either. However I will not presume he or any other cyclist is guilty until it is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Slideshowbob

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What evdence do you have to suggest he might not be clean? Or is it guilty until proven innocent in the wacky world of Slideshowbob?

i didnt say he wasnt clean

DirkVoodoo

ROK ON wrote: »

?

Bob raises an interesting point re doping. I think the answer is that we simply dont know. It is a reasonable question however given that his dad is suspected of having been among the first generation of pro cyclists to allegedly use EPO. .

I don't think asking people to prevent evidence of him not doping is a fair question. It's more like a witch hunt, sure if he drowns then we know he was clean so it's all good.

@Bob: You asked for evidence to be shown that he was clean, implying that he is cheating and you require proof to the contrary.

Slideshowbob

Lumen wrote: »

In this context the facepalm is broadly synonymous with a whoosh parrot, except with added despair.

A double facepalm expresses the same feelings, except double. Think of two whoosh parrots in a mid-air collision.

what the heck is a whoosh parrott?

Slideshowbob

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I don't think asking people to prevent evidence of him not doping is a fair question. It's more like a witch hunt, sure if he drowns then we know he was clean so it's all good.

@Bob: You asked for evidence to be shown that he was clean, implying that he is cheating and you require proof to the contrary.

dirk u know for certain he is clean?

i didnt ask anyone for evidence of him not doping - thats an impossibility

however someone said they thought he was clean so i asked can they elaborate on how they formed that opinion

its only a chat we are having here guys - relax!!

DirkVoodoo

Slideshowbob wrote: »

dirk u know for certain he is clean?

What? I don't know enough about the guy, I really have no opinion, but I also know not to go making public accusations or insinuations on the internet regarding Roche. He had a great year and I would always give someone the benefit of the doubt about doping.

The burden of proof is on you as the accuser, like I said "innocent until proven guilty". Asking people to provide you with "evidence" (in what form? Opinion on results and performances, is this all it takes?) that he is clean is completely ridiculous.

Slideshowbob

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What? I don't know enough about the guy, I really have no opinion, but I also know not to go making public accusations or insinuations on the internet regarding Roche. He had a great year and I would always give someone the benefit of the doubt about doping.

The burden of proof is on you as the accuser, like I said "innocent until proven guilty". Asking people to provide you with "evidence" (in what form? Opinion on results and performances, is this all it takes?) that he is clean is completely ridiculous.

are you putting words in my mouth and accusing me of being ridiculous because I merely asked if people think he is clean?

for someone that has no opinion you are getting fairly involved

oh and --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

DirkVoodoo

Slideshowbob wrote: »

with all due respect, and really wanting to believe he is clean as a fellow irishman, and with me playing devils advocate, can i ask what evidence allows you to form such opinion?

Am I putting words in your mouth? I apologise that was not my intention, I was merely basing my argument on the highlighted parts of that post. You may call it playing devil's advocate, but it sounds like it is your own opinion. Can I ask then, as someone who knows more about cycling than me, what leads you to believe he may be doping? Besides a successful year of racing that is.

Slideshowbob

it would be unfair on the chap to share such contentions / opinions on an internet forum as an anon. poster to strangers

for all i know and I hope - he is clean

just asking if anyone had any other opinion

probably understandable u feel a bit more passionate given iirc you are in orwell whs and S and N Roche both raced with orwell in their day

DirkVoodoo

Slideshowbob wrote: »

it would be unfair on the chap to share such contentions / opinions on an internet forum as an anon. poster to strangers

for all i know and I hope - he is clean

just asking if anyone had any other opinion

probably understandable u feel a bit more passionate given iirc you are in orwell whs and S and N Roche both raced with orwell in their day

Wait, you think it is unfair to share your own opinion but have no qualms about asking other people to offer theirs? Slightly perplexing.

I don't appreciate the Orwell thing either, there is one reason (maybe 2, other second being geographical) as to why I am in that club and not another. Being a devoted fan of the Roche dynasty has nothing to do with it.

Slideshowbob

all i can do is apologise if i have you perplexed

go out 4 a spin - think i will

DirkVoodoo

Slideshowbob wrote: »

all i can do is apologise if i have you perplexed

go out 4 a spin - think i will

I already did, weather was quite good but it's colder than it looks, I suggest wearing a bit more (knee/arm warmers, etc.).