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Very upset.

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    #32
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    I feel your pain OP, I'm RC, my wife is COI(and she has taken the responsibility to raise them in COI. No problem because at this stage I'm athetist) but the only school we have a choice to send the brats to is an RC affiliated one. They are constantly bombarded with this nonsense, brought to mass, questioned by the parish priest on his weekly visit etc etc. Now at the start we expressed our wish that they be kept out of all this but still it goes on. It's mostly lasiness on the teachers part I think and consequently we tend to not make a fuss as a good working relationship with staff is more important. I do however get much pleasure ridiculing it all in front of the kids (an unexpected pleasure!:D). Debunking from a parent is much more effective than their propaganda......I hope!
    Make it very clear with the principal that you want to know if they leave school grounds.


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    #33
    How Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭How Strange


    Op, I can understand why you're upset to a point but I think rather than focusing on something that's already happened and which you can't change perhaps you should go to the school and talk to the principal. Getting wound up about this particular incident isn't constructive.

    Express your concerns to the principal and communicate that you would like to be informed in future. If course he's your little fella and you want to know where he is during the day.

    I'm quite suprised that a school would take kids off the grounds in this day and age without signed parental consent forms considering the insurance implications and how litigious our society is. It seems we can't do anything nowadays because of health and safety risks so it seems strange that the school wouldn't have themselves covered by getting parents to sign forms at the beginning of the year.


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    #34
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Why are they taking four year olds to mass? Sabbath is on Sunday not on a school day.

    I'd object too.


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    #35
    cynder
    Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭cynder


    How Strange wrote: »

    I'm quite suprised that a school would take kids off the grounds in this day and age without signed parental consent forms considering the insurance implications and how litigious our society is. It seems we can't do anything nowadays because of health and safety risks so it seems strange that the school wouldn't have themselves covered by getting parents to sign forms at the beginning of the year.


    Could she have signed it on the original enrolment form.


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    #36
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭optogirl


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Seriously, you really think there is a danger that your child could be abused by spending 45 mins in the church?


    Why? How long does it take? I would have serious issues if my child was, as the OP pointed out, away from the school without my knowledge - in particular when they are being brought to a headquarters of an institution that has proven itself to have no regard for children or their welfare.


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    #37
    Jumbo156
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭Jumbo156


    optogirl wrote: »
    Why? How long does it take? I would have serious issues if my child was, as the OP pointed out, away from the school without my knowledge - in particular when they are being brought to a headquarters of an institution that has proven itself to have no regard for children or their welfare.

    He was with his teacher, they didn't send him on his own!
    He wasn't exactly going to place full of paedophiles, or do you think all priests and anyone connected to the Church are paedophiles?
    Tarring everyone in the church with the same brush is stupid. (I am not a chuch goer by the way).


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    #38
    harr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭harr


    optogirl wrote: »
    Why? How long does it take? I would have serious issues if my child was, as the OP pointed out, away from the school without my knowledge - in particular when they are being brought to a headquarters of an institution that has proven itself to have no regard for children or their welfare.
    well if she is that upset move them to a non rc school.i think the kids would love geting out of the class for an hour or so.we used to love going for nature walks and the the like its all part of learning you cant teach them everthing from the classroom.it does sound like the op has more of an issue with the mass end of it rather than takeing the child from the class,plus if you single one child out from the class by not letting him go this could bring unwanted attenison on the child.


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    #39
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Nature walks great idea.

    Given the history in this country of collusion between Church, state, and education and child abuse, sex and other wise, I certainly do not want any teacher taking my child anywhere within a 5 mile radius of a priest. Sorry but no.

    Until the Irish State, the IRish Church, show public trial and remorse than they have betrayed the trust of the people and cannot assume its ok to take kids, Catholic or not to mass regardless of what good intentions they [the teacher and the school] think they have.

    That is for the parents to decide and on PRIVATE time.


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    #40
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    For me this has got nothing to do with religion or the catholic church.

    Parents should be informed if a child is taken off school grounds. Very unprofessional, and perhaps even illegal not to do it without permission. I would doubt they'd even be covered for insurance.

    I don't see the point of from an educational point of view either. Those kids are too young to be learning about religion. Usually RC classes start in 1st or 2nd class AFAIK. A outing for older kids maybe. But younger kids makes no sense IMO.


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    #41
    thesimpsons
    Registered Users Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭thesimpsons


    if its a catholic school and the parents of a child haven't expressed a wish that child doesn't part take in religious education, the school then goes ahead and teachs religion and that will often include a visit to a church now and again. Same as schools will often take kids to local library for part of english class, or to a museum for history. Like it or not, religious education is part of the curriculum.

    if you were to count the number of perpetrators along with the numbers who knew about alot of the goings on in the catholic church, then the numbers probably run in to thousands. There were many local townspeople who knew about the goings on, even CoI clergy, ordinary men and women in the street. I've often heard stories from my parents that they knew well not to be left alone with particular priests or christian brothers when they were growing up. However, you cannot tar every member of the human race with these crimes. The school felt it was in the right doing what its probably done for countless years.


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    #42
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    If its the library or the church makes no difference to me. Thats irrelevant.

    They have to ask to take your child off site.


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    #43
    Jumbo156
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭Jumbo156


    BostonB wrote: »
    If its the library or the church makes no difference to me. Thats irrelevant.

    They have to ask to take your child off site.

    I really can't see the problem.
    Why do they have to ask, what are you going to say NO, and your kid will be left behind and alientated from the rest of the class.
    I will say it again, we have to trust the teachers, if you can't you should not send your kids to school and home teach!


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    #44
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The child gets put in another class for the short amount of time, this does not alienate the child from the class, neither does the child being opted out from Religious instruction.

    The parents should be told any time the kids are being taken of site, my kids school has always done that,
    permissions slips are sent home, before the kids set one foot of school property for any reason.


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    #45
    Jumbo156
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭Jumbo156


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The child gets put in another class for the short amount of time, this does not alienate the child from the class, neither does the child being opted out from Religious instruction.

    Why the hell would you not want your child taken to a library, Museum etc, i really am baffled !


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    #46
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    Thanks for the opinions from everyone in particular those who actually read what I said properly, on a side note I think the unwillingness of other posters who refuse to take what you say at face value and instead want to dissect and put their own spin on your words is slowly killing boards.ie for me.

    Thanks Metrovelvet, These schools are Catholic because they always have been, obviously they were not going to suddenly say they were not associated with religion anymore, Why they think it is ok to bring them to mass without consent is crazy to me, and I 100% agree that it is the parents decision, For example if a parent has been sexually abused themselves not necessarily by a priest..by anyone....then they might be extremely upset at the thought of their children going to mass or anywhere that they don't know, and Metrovelvet you put what I was thinking perfectly into words, with the knowledge we now have it is not ok to assume that we all want them to go. As I said I will allow him to go but I want to know when he is there.

    Happyman42, I can't believe they do not respect your wishes, I would be furious with them.


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    #47
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    BostonB wrote: »
    For me this has got nothing to do with religion or the catholic church.

    Parents should be informed if a child is taken off school grounds. Very unprofessional, and perhaps even illegal not to do it without permission. I would doubt they'd even be covered for insurance.

    I don't see the point of from an educational point of view either. Those kids are too young to be learning about religion. Usually RC classes start in 1st or 2nd class AFAIK. A outing for older kids maybe. But younger kids makes no sense IMO.


    Thank you BostonB


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    #48
    we'llallhavetea_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭we'llallhavetea_old


    well this has blown up fairly fast!

    i would be fairly pissed if i hadn't signed a consent form and my daughter was taken out of the school tbh. as a parent, it's my right to know if there's a possibility my child maybe taken out of school for awhile.

    i have no issues with her walking to the church, as long as she's not taking part in anything religious. kids love to get out of the class for a wee break!

    i think the op is a bit wound up at the minute but will mellow out and see that it's not the end of the world and that more than likely has signed a consent form at some stage without realising. don't worry op, we all have the odd wobbler when our kids are involved, i know i have had some whoppers!


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    #49
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Jumbo156 my post was in the context of this thread is about children being taken to the local church during school hours not the library or musem.

    I have no issue with either of my children going to the library or museum as part of a school trips but all school trips had notes sent home before hand and permission slips.


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    #50
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    We'llallhavetea, Thanks, I know I am wound up but I 100% did not sign a consent form,

    My mum actually just came round and I said I was talking on boards about this and she said that when she looked at the local paper (you know the ones with the local areas notes in them) that it had a snippet in that about taking them to the church.

    So they can alert the local person involved in the community notes to tell the newspaper but don't think they should have to tell the parents!!??

    I don't read the local paper


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    #51
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Sounds like this may have been one of those local events and if your not in the parish or active in the parish you don't hear about it until after. I have had that happen over the years, they don't inform the parents as they assume the parents will have hear it at mass or over the parish grapevine :rolleyes:

    So what was the reason give in the local paper for the kids being taken out of school and trooped up to the church?


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    #52
    Kimono-Girl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭Kimono-Girl


    cc-offe wrote: »
    , with the knowledge we now have it is not ok to assume that we all want them to go.


    They Assumed you wanted him to go because you Choose to put him in a Catholic School!
    cc-offe wrote: »
    , As I said I will allow him to go but I want to know when he is there.

    when he is school you don't have a clue where he is and you are ok with that? he could be moved into another classroom, he could be in the bathroom,gym,library,computer room, he could be out in the yard....Fact is from here on out you will not be able to track your sons every movement, you have to learn to cope with that...most parents do, i know parents that just spend their time worrying themselves sick because they don't know what exactly their children are doing 24/7 anymore.

    you have to trust the teacher will make the best decision for your son,(they make them based on the schools policies which you should have researched) they are now in charge of him for the day, you need to learn to trust them to take care of him and let them make certain decisions until he is back in your care after school.

    Apologies if i sound harsh i don't mean to be, and i understand you are worried for your son, but im sure he will be fine and the teachers there are just as concerned for his welfare as you!


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    #53
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    candlelover keep posting in that combative manner and you'll be give a break from this forum.

    It is normal for any trip off the school premises to require explicit permission from parents.


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    #54
    we'llallhavetea_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭we'llallhavetea_old


    cc-offe wrote: »
    We'llallhavetea, Thanks, I know I am wound up but I 100% did not sign a consent form,

    My mum actually just came round and I said I was talking on boards about this and she said that when she looked at the local paper (you know the ones with the local areas notes in them) that it had a snippet in that about taking them to the church.

    So they can alert the local person involved in the community notes to tell the newspaper but don't think they should have to tell the parents!!??

    I don't read the local paper

    ah well now thats bang out of order, i wouldn't read the local paper (dunno if there is one!) i can see why you're pissed off, i would be too.

    the best thing you can do really is express your distaste to the principal/teacher, without losing the rag. you won't get anywhere without saying it to them and you'll get upset everytime it happens and it WILL happen again i imagine.


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    #55
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Sounds like this may have been one of those local events and if your not in the parish or active in the parish you don't hear about it until after. I have had that happen over the years, they don't inform the parents as they assume the parents will have hear it at mass or over the parish grapevine :rolleyes:

    So what was the reason give in the local paper for the kids being taken out of school and trooped up to the church?


    I haven't seen it myself sorry but I think she said it just mentioned they were going to the church, no reason given, not 100% sure but I go to shop later and look in the paper.

    And candlelover that is ridiculous, If I think he is at school, he should be at school, If I think he is at mass that is where he should be.

    I do have a rough idea where they are in the school at all times, not because I intentionally found out but because of the way the school works, they are in their infants room which is locked and in a seperate part of the school ,there is a rota for which play area they are in when they are in infants to seperate them from the bigger kids, but like I said I didn't try to find this out and I am happy just to know he is anywhere on school grounds, where he is supposed to be. I have trust in them when he is there, however my trust in them does not entitle them to bring him out of the school building without my consent


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    #56
    Jumbo156
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭Jumbo156


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Jumbo156 the context of this thread is about children being taken to the local church during school hours not the library or musem.

    I think you are wrong, the point of the thread is about taking children out somewhere else, outside school, The Op said it herself, she had no problem with her son going to mass, it's the fact that she wasn't told when.

    My point is that we have to trust the teachers and if they want to take them on trips, we have to let them.


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    #57
    elexes
    Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭elexes


    im guessing school is over now how did you get on with the head ?


    personally i find it strange that they wouldn't of told you about a trip to a church.


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    #58
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    candlelover wrote: »
    They Assumed you wanted him to go because you Choose to put him in a Catholic School!



    when he is school you don't have a clue where he is and you are ok with that? he could be moved into another classroom, he could be in the bathroom,gym,library,computer room, he could be out in the yard....Fact is from here on out you will not be able to track your sons every movement, you have to learn to cope with that...most parents do, i know parents that just spend their time worrying themselves sick because they don't know what exactly their children are doing 24/7 anymore.

    you have to trust the teacher will make the best decision for your son,(they make them based on the schools policies which you should have researched) they are now in charge of him for the day, you need to learn to trust them to take care of him and let them make certain decisions until he is back in your care after school.

    Apologies if i sound harsh i don't mean to be, and i understand you are worried for your son, but im sure he will be fine and the teachers there are just as concerned for his welfare as you!

    Some people have no choice but to put kids in a Catholic school. In my region for example I would have no choice. Now Im not a die hard secularist nor am I a Vatican 1 Catholic. I am your run of the mill American catholic who has never heard of half the indoctrination some Irish people have gotten despite having been sent to Jesuit school, a privilege usually reserved for boys.

    However, if my son were taken off school grounds I should like to know about it. It's my right to know where my son is.

    I also, believe I should have some control over what religious indoctrination is used to brainwash my son. I don't mind the usual Jesus loves children and memorizing the ten commandments and be kind and compassionate yadda yaddaa primary school age but I draw the line at four year olds being taken to mass on days that are not even holy day. I think that is way out of line because it is excessive.


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    #59
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    elexes wrote: »
    im guessing school is over now how did you get on with the head ?


    personally i find it strange that they wouldn't of told you about a trip to a church.


    Hi elexes, thank you, my partner did the school run today so it will be tomorrow or wednesday before I see the principal.


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    #60
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Jumbo156 the context of this thread is about children being taken to the local church during school hours not the library or musem.....

    I don't see the different TBH. Off school grounds, period.
    Thaedydal wrote: »
    ....
    It is normal for any trip off the school premises to require explicit permission from parents.

    Thats what I'd expect too.

    I was wondering was it a legal requirement, but I couldn't find anything.

    That said it may simply have been a mix up that notice wasn't given, and out of character for the school. But I would bring it to their attention.


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    #61
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Jumbo156 wrote: »
    I really can't see the problem.
    Why do they have to ask, what are you going to say NO, and your kid will be left behind and alientated from the rest of the class.
    I will say it again, we have to trust the teachers, if you can't you should not send your kids to school and home teach!

    I think if recent experience of banks, govt, religion, has taught us anything is that blind trust is not a good thing, and we should question everything. There are bad teachers, (as in lacking common sense) same as any other walk of life.


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