Very upset.

Zen65 · 20-09-2010 11:37pm

Hi OP,

Yes, I think you are right to be concerned, and I think the school should reassure you that they take adequate precautions for these trips. A note home, or a text (cheap to do for schools) is the very least you should expect.

You may find that in a Catholic School the "Terms & Conditions" include a requirement to bring the children to the church, and by placing your child in that school it is deemed that you accept these T&C's (hence no permission slip to be signed) but certainly where my kids went to school we had to sign a consent form for every trip.

Ignore the non-parents here who don't understand why you are so concerned, it's not something that easily fits into "logical" explanation. It's only when you hold your own child in your own arms that you realise the strength of the bond between parent & child. That is why you put your child's health and welfare before your own needs.

Be at peace,

Z

Dudess · 20-09-2010 11:59pm

A primary teacher close friend of mine says it's a constant fear for her that something will happen to any of the children - maybe she's extra conscientious, but it was instilled in her from when she started training also. The children are her chief concern, but she is looking out for herself and her job too.
Something small like role-call after break and a child not being there (and usually just a straggler or gone to the toilet) causes her blood to freeze. It's a tough role - I think teachers should be given due credit for it.

metrovelvet · 21-09-2010 12:37am

i think its just that parents like to know where there kids are, especially when they are as young as four. The little thing has only been in school for a couple of weeks. Its a big step for both of them.

Also its so easy to lose them. Gosh in a shop one second and they've gone and I think parents must be seriously gobsmacked at a teacher keeping track of 25 of them when one is difficult.

thesimpsons · 21-09-2010 8:56am

Zen65 wrote: »

Ignore the non-parents here who don't understand why you are so concerned, Be at pit's not something that easily fits into "logical" explanation.

would there really be any non-parents on a parenting site - surely everyone here has kids themselves but just have different takes on how to handle things. Thats what makes a parenting site a great source of information and sharing of views and thoughts. just because someone elses ideas don't fit in with your own ones, doesn't mean they are childless, heartless or can't understand other viewpoints.

dan_d · 21-09-2010 9:05am

Actually I'm a non-parent ...something I'll freely admit to, and have done before.

I don't comment on things that I simply don't have any experience of in threads here.I'll occasionally comment on things I might have an opinion on, but I'll say I'm not a parent. But on the other hand, I'm the child of an infant school teacher, and I quite recently spent a couple of days (again) giving my mum a hand in the school...which caters for the tinies age 4- 7ish. I commented here because I know the conversation teachers have regarding the children and their welfare, and how much attention is paid to ensuring that every child gets the best possible experience, and the most chances possible.I also know how high a priority health and safety is in schools.

In my post I told the OP to speak to the principal....which she should. But I also said I thought she was overreacting slightly...based on the fact that I've seen the other side of the teacher's desk, and have a better idea how it works than many parents do. Things aren't done willy-nilly, just because.I would be slightly concerned about the infant door being locked, but that's just my personal view on that.

I'm not arguing, just pointing out that that's my situation and it's why I commented here.

littlebug · 21-09-2010 9:39am

non parents are people too

. Lots of non parents contribute usefully to this forum whether they be teachers, teenagers, aunties, uncles etc.

Re the Church thing and permissions etc I've been thinking about that and wondering why it doesn't happen. I don't recall ever seeing anything written down but I think in our case the school is so tied in with the Church that is is considered an extension of the school in a way.
A word of warning for anyone who has a problem with that or is considering schools to send your children to. You should probably expect them to be involved in lots of Church events and holy day "stuff" e.g on ash wednesday they will arrive out the school gates with ashes on their foreheads with no permission sought in advance . If this is something that you think you will have an issue with then reconsider what school you are sending your children to or if you don't have a choice school wise then make sure they know your stance.

BostonB · 21-09-2010 10:22am

thesimpsons wrote: »

would there really be any non-parents on a parenting site ...

I think you can tell the non parents and parents comments apart quite easily. Ditto new parents from more experienced parents.

BostonB · 21-09-2010 10:24am

Its pretty obvious that not all schools, teachers do things the same way, or to the same standards, so just because its one way in one place does not infer its the same everywhere else.

mike kelly · 21-09-2010 10:31am

cc-offe wrote: »

Halpin17 I don't have a problem with him going to mass, I have a problem that the school did not inform us.

Teachers have enough to do already, if you want to know where your child is all the time then consider home schooling him yourself.

ash23 · 21-09-2010 10:52am

Well, I'm a parent.
And I think OP is being OTT.

I've a fairly relaxed approach to parenting. My child walks to school alone, plays out on the green. I let her go to school and I trust them to look after her. I teach her at home whats appropriate behaviour and what isn't. I teach her to stay close to her teacher and to do as she is told while also teaching her to tell me if she is ever uncomfortable with what she is told to do.

I trust my child. I trust that she knows right from wrong and that she will behave herself on the road, walking to school.
When she was smaller I trusted her with smaller tasks. And I handed her over to her creche and her school and I trusted them to look after her.

I can't and won't spend my life worrying. It is futile imo.
If something is going to happen, it will happen. I can only do my best to teach her and guide her. And to choose the best school and creche for her.

I trust her school. I trust that they don't want any harm to come to her and that they too will do their utmost to prevent anything happening to her. So I trust them to take her places they deem appropriate without running it past me on each and every occasion.

I want my daughter to have a childhood, to see places other than her garden, her house and her classroom. I want her to know her town, meet people in it, experience new things.
And I'm happy that she has that opportunity in her school. I did. And I'm glad that the overprotectiveness a lot of parents have for their kids hasn't stopped our school from doing that.

BostonB · 21-09-2010 10:59am

ash23 wrote: »

...I've a fairly relaxed approach to parenting. My child walks to school alone, plays out on the green. I let her go to school and I trust them to look after her. I teach her at home whats appropriate behaviour and what isn't. I teach her to stay close to her teacher and to do as she is told while also teaching her to tell me if she is ever uncomfortable with what she is told to do....

When she was 4?

ash23 · 21-09-2010 11:09am

BostonB wrote: »

When she was 4?

I did SPECIFICALLY state that when she was younger I chose a school and a creche I trusted and I trusted them to do right by her. And if that meant bringing her somewhere then I was ok with not being asked about her each and every move. As I trusted them to do right by her.You've completely ignored the rest of my post.

If OP doesn't trust the teachers who mind her child, to keep him from harm, she should really look at other schools as it's a long journey to adulthood.

From a very young age I was teaching my daughter to be more and more independent and responsible for herself and that is why at the age of 7, I can trust her to do more. Baby steps.

Keebler · 21-09-2010 11:12am

cc-offe wrote: »

2 points about the abuse

1. I was not referring to the jersey care home, I was referring to the montessori/playschool in the uk where the worker was locked up last year for taking indecent pictures of the children in her care, do you remember that case?

2. I was not saying he was going to be abused, I said in light of all the stories we have heard about the church the schools should not assume that they are allowed to take them there. How can I put this......say there was news stories about children being abused in the past at local libraries......schools should not take it as a given that all parents want their children to be brought there.

Nothing worse than paranoid parents to stilt a childs independent development! Even the use of bold letters in your threads as if your shouting to make your point says more about your inability to relax about things than getting a salient point accross.

cynder · 21-09-2010 11:49am

Again i agree with ash23.

I trust the 2 schools by kids are in as well as the playschool my 3 year old is in.

the playschool take the kids out for nature walks on the spare of the moment when the weather is good, no parent is informed of this until an excited child when collected tells them (before the playschool leader has a chance). When first enrolling him i signed a consent form for this.

for the guy in J.infants I don't need to keep phoning the school to see if my son is in his classroom or if he is in the playground. the teachers are there to teach and educate him, if that means leaving the school ground and going for a walk then so be it, i don't need to know there and then his gone for a walk. There is more worry of a mad-mad armed top the teeth going on a shooting spree then there is of him having an accident outside of school premises, but that's what it is an accident. Accidents can happen anywhere. As for a worry of him being made leave school ground to be abused by a priest or by a teacher, that's not going to happen. Why drive yourself crazy worrying about such things? as i said i trust my daughters (city school) my sons (country school) and my other sons playschool also attached to the school is older brother is attending.

also to add my sons school sent home 10 pages of forms to be filled in from letting them put a plaster on him too garda vetting. Not one was a permission slip for school excursions.

Kimono-Girl · 21-09-2010 12:29pm

grindelwald wrote: »

the playschool take the kids out for nature walks on the spare of the moment when the weather is good, no parent is informed of this until an excited child when collected tells them (before the playschool leader has a chance). When first enrolling him i signed a consent form for this.

First i have to point out i agree 100% with Ash23 and grindelwald.

Second the above is the norm, when i worked with Junior Infant classes quite often the days curriculum was change spur of the moment, from a teacher being out sick to being taken on outings weather depending, it seems however this outing was pre-planned if they put it in the local newsletter though,

in fact one of the reasons schools recommend you talk to your child about their day is so you will find out what has happened or what is happening...

maybe you could start picking up the local paper/news letter if it means more awareness of school activities (or maybe suggest the school stocks these newsletters in an area parents could pick them up easily so parents would be informed of these trips)

BostonB · 21-09-2010 12:32pm

Trusting your child at 7 and a school taking a child of 4 off site without permission is two entirely different issues IMO. its like comparing Cheese and Chalk. By the time your child is 7 your used to lots of things that seem strange when your first is 4. Hindsight is 20:20 etc.

Its like the issue of texts. The school already texts parent. So banging on about the cost of texting, or teachers being busy is irrelevant. This school already does it! They just didn't do it this time.

The issue here is not taking your child off site either. Or not allowing them go for walks, or being notified every time they go to the yard or class. Thats just nonsense. The issue also isn't having an issue with something you've agreed to previously. Thats entirely different too.

The issue is being surprised by something you weren't aware of, through a lack of communication from the school. Is the OP a bit paranoid. Probably yes. is that normal for many parent, first child in school, yes. Is the child in any risk. Almost certainly not.

I wouldn't be worried about it unless I didn't want it, or the school had a habit of poor communication.

21-09-2010 12:35pm

Non-parent here.
OP, I do think you're being irrational.
However, I think a little bit of irrational thought is more than to be expected from the mother of a four year old who has just begun primary school. Especially when that irrational thought is irrational in terms of being over-cautious. It's totally understandable.

In reference to the mention of abuse, teachers are aware of the child abuse scandal. It's just that their reaction to it isn't to keep the kids indoors. Teachers are constantly aware of keeping your child away from any danger. No matter where they take your child, there will always be supervision. They will always be keeping watch. But in order to educate them fully they can't keep them sat in the classroom all the times.

Definitely talk to the Principal, but talk to him about your concerns and why you're worried. Don't go in flinging accusations around about missing consent forms and inadequate care. Just tell him you're finding it difficult leaving your child, and you'd like to know more information about how the school runs off site activities. I know you might get worked up, but try to stay calm. There's nothing more dangerous than an over-worried parent.

Good luck, and try not to worry.

metrovelvet · 21-09-2010 12:44pm

Its not for us to judge if she is being OTT or hysterical because we dont have tone to guide us through the language. Perhaps it is a disproportionate response perhaps it isnt.

I would raise an eyebrow at a four year old being taken off to Mass. I would not like it. I dont mind talks about Jesus and be nice to everybody and the kind of post 1960s acoustic guitar christianity I got growing up, but mass is a ritual and sacrament and altogether different from that.

ALso if its nice outside sure take them for a nature walk. But Church? you gotta be kidding.

BostonB · 21-09-2010 12:49pm

Trust the experts. Er no thanks.

Nothing wrong with asking reasonable questions, if they asked in the correct way.

Nevyn · 21-09-2010 1:00pm

thesimpsons wrote: »

would there really be any non-parents on a parenting site - surely everyone here has kids themselves but just have different takes on how to handle things. Thats what makes a parenting site a great source of information and sharing of views and thoughts. just because someone elses ideas don't fit in with your own ones, doesn't mean they are childless, heartless or can't understand other viewpoints.

The parenting forum is part of a bigger site with lots of different forums,
and as the charter states.

Charter and rules.
This forums is for those who are invovled with rearing and parenting children,
parents, grand parents, extended family ect.

So we do get posters contributing to the forum who are not parents themselves but it's not usually a problem, but we don't ask posters to state they have kids and we don't allow for posters to undercut each other by saying that a poster doesn't' have kids to undermine their post.

As ever if you think a post is unreasonable or out of step with the supporting and sharing ethos of the forum and is breaking the forum rules or site rules, report it and the parenting mods will review it.

cc-offe · 21-09-2010 1:04pm

Hi everyone, I am going to talk to the principal and have no intention of losing my temper as I've said a number of times on this thread,

With regards to the abuse scandal, How many times can I say that I am not saying he is going to be abused when he goes to the church,
What I am saying is because of the scandal the schools and the church should acknowlege that some parents might not want them brought to the church (not me...but others) Let's be honest here, what happened was atrocious and protocol should have changed in the light of the scandal in regards to mass etc. If this was any where else except the church then everyone would be saying the same......if there were countless tales of abuse on nature walks for example or in the shop would you like your child going without your knowledge and consent.

Please reread this post and my other posts where you will see I say over and over again that the abuse is not the issue with me but it is one of the reasons I was so shocked that they were brought without consent....so please reread before going on and on about the abuse like it's my main issue when I said it's not.

There is obviously different parenting styles everywhere, A couple of years ago a little girl, couldn't have been more than 2 years old allowed to play out the front of her house in my estate, No kids play up that part in the estate, her parents are never out with her, in the summer she was out in a nappy, shoes and tshirt, their house is right at the entrance of the estate and someone could literally run in and snatch her and go back out to their car, of course some people will think that that is fine (although how I don't know).

Thanks again BostonB.

Nevyn · 21-09-2010 1:08pm

candlelover wrote: »

maybe you could start picking up the local paper/news letter if it means more awareness of school activities (or maybe suggest the school stocks these newsletters in an area parents could pick them up easily so parents would be informed of these trips)

I completely disagree with this, I should not and no parent should have to pick up the local paper or parish news letter to know if their child is being taken of the school premises on X day and for what reason.

I entrust the care of my children to the school, if the school is going to deviate from the children being on site then I expect to be advised beforehand and if needed sign a permission slip.

Thankfully for the most part the local primary school abides by this, and so much so that when one of my kids was sick and a slip didn't come home
on the morning of the trip to the library they rang me and I called over and signed the forum before my daughter was allowed to go with the rest of the class.

This seems to be standard operating proceedures for most primary schools I know.

ash23 · 21-09-2010 1:13pm

BostonB wrote: »

Trusting your child at 7 and a school taking a child of 4 off site without permission is two entirely different issues IMO. its like comparing Cheese and Chalk. By the time your child is 7 your used to lots of things that seem strange when your first is 4. Hindsight is 20:20 etc.

You're deliberately ignoring my point I think. My child was 4 once upon a time too. At some point all of us parents of older kids had to start loosening our control. It's always hard at the start but the OP has to start somewhere.

I trusted my childs school when she was 4 and I continue to.
I trusted her creche since she was a baby and I still do.
My daughter goes off with her friends, with my family, with her dad and I trust them all to take care of her. At some point you have to realise you cannot know where your children are every hour of every day. We cannot watch them all the time. We cannot know everything. Even at 4.

Its like the issue of texts. The school already texts parent. So banging on about the cost of texting, or teachers being busy is irrelevant. This school already does it! They just didn't do it this time.

The school shouldn't have to text each and every parent every single time they decide to have a field trip. And what difference would it actually make? Would they have to text 30 parents and then wait for 30 replies saying it was ok?
If they didn't get 30 replies would they be able to go?

Why add a level of beaurocracy to a simple nature walk! It's absurd!

And if they don't have to wait for 30 replies then whats the point in the text in the first place?

The issue here is not taking your child off site either. Or not allowing them go for walks, or being notified every time they go to the yard or class. Thats just nonsense. The issue also isn't having an issue with something you've agreed to previously. Thats entirely different too.

How is it nonsense? because if they have to do it once, they have to do it every time for every single thing.

The issue is being surprised by something you weren't aware of, through a lack of communication from the school. Is the OP a bit paranoid. Probably yes. is that normal for many parent, first child in school, yes. Is the child in any risk. Almost certainly not.

I wouldn't be worried about it unless I didn't want it, or the school had a habit of poor communication.

But the point is that you cannot be aware of everything. once your child starts school you are no longer able to know everything.

If a parent needs to know all that then they need to home school. I can understand the OPs reluctance to hand over control but it has to be done. Children need some freedom, a little bit more every year.

And being honest, parents that over react ruin it for the other kids. If you've a couple of parents demanding to be told about every nature walk, every library visit etc, then the teachers are less likely to bother putting themselves out and it's the other kids who suffer.

ash23 · 21-09-2010 1:17pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

ALso if its nice outside sure take them for a nature walk. But Church? you gotta be kidding.

If you put a Catholic kid in a catholic school then it's to be expected.
My kid never goes to mass at home but she is taught creationism, prayers, they get ashes on ash wednesday and they go to mass on holy days.

I put her in the school, said she was catholic. If I'd had an issue with it I should have expressed that at the start or put her in a different school.

But I didn't so now I just teach her to question things and to take bible stories with a pinch of salt.

She loves mass btw. Always has.

cc-offe · 21-09-2010 1:25pm

My apologies Thaedydal, I did not notice the infraction on the Keebers post.

Ash23, my child does go off with grandparents, to friends houses and summer camps etc, I do trust them, He was at football camp in the summer, I trusted the coach with him, If I found out they were brought somewhere else apart from their camp then I would have been annoyed.

Relations are different, you can not compare grandparents bringing the grandchildren out without telling me where they are going with the school taking them out of the premises.

This is not directed at you Ash23 but just a point I would like to make...My son goes to friends houses etc, I have a baby and another parent often offers to collect my son for me from school (our children are friends), he would love to go with her and yes it would be very handy for me to say yes but when she brings her own child to school she cannot even control him...let alone another one....he runs across the road...the road at the school is very dangerous (so much so that the principal actually told us every morning he is expecting an accident) there is no lollipop lady and as I said he runs across the road, she can't run after him or control him, I cannot allow my child to go with them even though it would be easier for me but there are plenty of parents that would risk it for an easier life...If another parent who was more careful with their child or children offered then I'm sure the odd day maybe i'd say yes. My point is that I am getting accused here of not allowing my child to be independent but he is very independent....but he is still 4 and there has to be a line between being cautious and allowing him to be more grown up.

ash23 · 21-09-2010 1:27pm

Ok well, I'll ask you this.

If you say it to the principle and he says "ok, sign this. it says we can bring your child on outings", will you sign it?

If he refuses to agree to inform you of each and every outing will you say no to all outings?

cc-offe · 21-09-2010 1:32pm

Ash23, where the school is there is literally nowhere to go, there are no nature walks, there is no library, there is nowhere to go (apart from mass) unless they want to go somewhere on a bus (which I presume they would ask for note for)

Can I also just say I am not a paranoid parent, I allow my son freedom, we have a laid back relaxed happy home, people are reading this like I am paranoid about everything but I am not.

Kimono-Girl · 21-09-2010 1:49pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I completely disagree with this, I should not and no parent should have to pick up the local paper or parish news letter to know if their child is being taken of the school premises on X day and for what reason.

I agree with you she shouldn't HAVE to pick up the local paper its bad form that they managed to print it in a paper but yet failed to photocopy a note, but unfortunately from the way the op has described her sons school, it would maybe help her more if she did....

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thankfully for the most part the local primary school abides by this, and so much so that when one of my kids was sick and a slip didn't come home
on the morning of the trip to the library they rang me and I called over and signed the forum before my daughter was allowed to go with the rest of the class.

This seems to be standard operating proceedures for most primary schools I know.

most but unfortunately again, not all of them, you were lucky to live near a school that agrees with you on the matter, until we hear from the OP on her sons schools policies and what the principal says which i suspect from the fact they printed the notice they were going to mass but did not directly inform the parents, they assume (incorrectly it would seem) that parents read the newsletter.

LegacyUser · 21-09-2010 2:00pm

BostonB wrote: »

For me this has got nothing to do with religion or the catholic church.

Parents should be informed if a child is taken off school grounds. Very unprofessional, and perhaps even illegal not to do it without permission. I would doubt they'd even be covered for insurance.

I don't see the point of from an educational point of view either. Those kids are too young to be learning about religion. Usually RC classes start in 1st or 2nd class AFAIK. A outing for older kids maybe. But younger kids makes no sense IMO.

If it's a regular occurrence then I'd say the school have taken care of all insurance requirements.

Personally I would not object to my children going to a school mass if I had kids. I think it's one of the few occasions where children feel part of the larger school community and have a little time reflecting on positive values they might want to embody over the course of the year. Christian values are not exclusively religious values. Any school mass I attended as a child concentrated on emphasizing being kind to friends,helping children who were struggling to fit in, appreciating parents and being mindful of the less fortunate in society and around the world.

As a parent you will be the most powerful influence in your childs life. It's no harm to start teaching children at an early age what you believe about God and religion and using school masses etc as occasions to do this while explaining that other people might feel differently and go to mass and that they deserve tolerance and respect. If it's going to be part of your childs school life you'd be much better off trying to find some positives in the situation and use it a learning experience than being upset about it. It'll just be the first of many occasions where your child will come up against people who don't share the same beliefs that they do after all. Also don't through the baby out with the bath water. There are some very positive values to learn from Christianity and other religions too.

ash23 · 21-09-2010 2:21pm

Ash23, where the school is there is literally nowhere to go, there are no nature walks, there is no library, there is nowhere to go (apart from mass) unless they want to go somewhere on a bus (which I presume they would ask for note for)

A nature walk in my daughters school involves going to the field next to the school. A walk for fitness involves walking around the estate next to the school.

OK, I'll rephrase. lets say the principle tells you mass is a regular occurance, that occasionally the kids will be brought out for a stroll off school grounds and it is not their policy to notify parents of each outing that occurs in the school and he will not be making a promise that you will be informed of every outing, what will you do?

Because it sounds like their policy is the same as that in our local NS where it's a bit less stringent and occasionally the kids will end up off school grounds without prior arrangements.

Very upset.

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