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Very upset.

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    #122
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    ash23 wrote: »
    You're deliberately ignoring my point I think. My child was 4 once upon a time too. At some point all of us parents of older kids had to start loosening our control. It's always hard at the start but the OP has to start somewhere. ...

    The school shouldn't have to text each and every parent every single time they decide to have a field trip. And what difference would it actually make? Would they have to text 30 parents and then wait for 30 replies saying it was ok?

    If they didn't get 30 replies would they be able to go?

    Why add a level of beaurocracy to a simple nature walk! It's absurd!

    How is it nonsense? because if they have to do it once, they have to do it every time for every single thing.

    But the point is that you cannot be aware of everything. once your child starts school you are no longer able to know everything.

    I''m not ignoring it, I don't believe your comparing like with like. They are disparate comparisons.

    A nature walk is entirely different to a going to a church. Going to the school yard on site, is entirely different to going off site. Doing daily things is entirely different to doing one off trips. Being aware of everything is entirely different of being aware of things that are not routine. Its a bit hysterical to suggest that because you inform of one event, that all events down to the smallest trivia have to be communicated.

    It may be some people experience and wish that they are not informed of where their child is, or the school doesn't ask for permission to go off site, and on field trips, or that the whole school goes to mass on a regular basis, including the infant class'es. If thats what you want fine.

    All I can say its not typical of my experience or those I know. Even of my own school days, when schools were far more religion focused than they are today.


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    #123
    Tipsygypsy
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭Tipsygypsy


    Its very simple folks, at some point the school should have informed the OP that the kids would occasionally be taking trips to the local church. I think it was more the surprise of finding out it had happened than anything else that has bothered the OP. And I think that's fair enough, it may very well have been an oversight or miscommunication.
    My sons school asks for a general consent form at the start of the year which mentions that they may go on nature walks etc in the locality. I know its a possibility so it doesnt worry me, and I dont expect a note every time (I do expect one if they are going to be going any farther, on a bus or anything, and they always sends one) but the OP was never made aware that it was likely that her child would be taken off school grounds, and thats just not on. Its her first experience of national school so give her a break.
    And for those going on about bureaucracy, its really not that complicated to photocopy a note and stick it into school bags, takes less than 5 minutes to do and surely its worth it?
    I look forward to hearing how you got on at the school OP, I think its important that you be happy with the arrangements in place, they are responsible for your precious child, and Im sure they have his best interests at heart. Im sure you'll have a perfectly rational chat to the teacher and all will be smoothed out.


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    #124
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    Well ash23, the teacher obviously has to get permission from the principal to take them on these outings in advance and I wouldn't say that there would many be spontaneous outings so if that were the case Iwould expect them to let me know at least about the pre planned ones,

    when we pick the children up from school we all go up to the door and one by one she calls the children from the classroom so it would not be a case of having to make time to see her as we have brief contact already everyday.

    The children do not leave the school for outings, (just asked my neighbour this afternoon, she has a 6th class student over there) I casually asked her did they ever go out on nature walks or little trips and stuff like that and she said never in all his years of school did they go anywhere except their annual school tour and swimming (which they don't start until 1st class I think).

    I didn't ask her about mass as I don't want to make an issue out of it before speaking to the principal.


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    #125
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I'd be annoyed if it was only my car in a garage tbh...


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    #126
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    BostonB wrote: »
    I''m not ignoring it, I don't believe your comparing like with like. They are disparate comparisons.

    A nature walk is entirely different to a going to a church. Going to the school yard on site, is entirely different to going off site. Doing daily things is entirely different to doing one off trips. Being aware of everything is entirely different of being aware of things that are not routine. Its a bit hysterical to suggest that because you inform of one event, that all events down to the smallest trivia have to be communicated

    The issue wasn't the church though?
    How is a one off trip up the road to the athletics field (about a 5 min walk) or a walk down to the garda station (10 mins) any different from a walk to the church?

    I'm talking about things "off site".
    And in my opinion and experience (both in my own education and my daughters), things happen "off site" in school fairly regularly which are only communicated to the parents by the children or after the event.


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    #127
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    BostonB wrote: »
    I''m not ignoring it, I don't believe your comparing like with like. They are disparate comparisons.

    A nature walk is entirely different to a going to a church. Going to the school yard on site, is entirely different to going off site. Doing daily things is entirely different to doing one off trips. Being aware of everything is entirely different of being aware of things that are not routine. Its a bit hysterical to suggest that because you inform of one event, that all events down to the smallest trivia have to be communicated.

    It may be some people experience and wish that they are not informed of where their child is, or the school doesn't ask for permission to go off site, and on field trips, or that the whole school goes to mass on a regular basis, including the infant class'es. If thats what you want fine.

    All I can say its not typical of my experience or those I know. Even of my own school days, when schools were far more religion focused than they are today.


    Thanks BostonB, I wish I could put it the way you do, you manage to get the same points I am trying to make across perfectly, I end up sounding hysterical :)


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    #128
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    cc-offe wrote: »
    Well ash23, the teacher obviously has to get permission from the principal to take them on these outings in advance and I wouldn't say that there would many be spontaneous outings so if that were the case Iwould expect them to let me know at least about the pre planned ones,

    when we pick the children up from school we all go up to the door and one by one she calls the children from the classroom so it would not be a case of having to make time to see her as we have brief contact already everyday.

    The children do not leave the school for outings, (just asked my neighbour this afternoon, she has a 6th class student over there) I casually asked her did they ever go out on nature walks or little trips and stuff like that and she said never in all his years of school did they go anywhere except their annual school tour and swimming (which they don't start until 1st class I think).

    I didn't ask her about mass as I don't want to make an issue out of it before speaking to the principal.


    Well, I'd hate my kid to be in a school like that tbh. I love that there is spontaneous outings on a sunny day and that they get to go places. i like the fact that the kids run out to the gates when the bell goes. We were actually asked not to come to the classroom after the first few weeks. We meet them at the gate.

    I prefer the sense of freedom the schools allows the kids.
    What you've described wouldn't suit my parenting style at all and I guess thats what it boils down to. Everyone parents differently. And each school acts differently.
    You'd be having heart failure if your child attending the school here but I'd find your school too stringent.

    But unfortunately schools have many parents to deal with and generally apply an across the board style of things. this may be something you just have to learn to live with.


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    #129
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    Thanks ash23, I don't think the school is necessarily stringent, I think it's just for the little ones where the teacher meets us at the door and things like that. It's only been a couple of weeks. I also think the main reason they don't go on outings is because there is nowhere to go, I've never heard of the things you mentioned like walking around the neighbouring estates for fitness.

    You don't agree with some of my parenting ideas, I don't agree with some of yours but at the end of the day everyone does things differently.

    There are not that many things that I won't let him do or that I question when other people mind my children, I am a laidback person and the last thing I had an issue with before this was when his grandparents moved to a new house and wanted to take him and his cousins for the weekend to stay over, I refused until they bought smoke alarms for the house, they then bought the alarms, he had his little weekend holiday and had a great time.

    He's a very grown up little man for his age, he would walk down to the shop if I let him but I wouldn't and I don't feel that this takes away from his independence.

    Apart from that the only things I restrict him from doing are obvious dangers, I'm not one of those parents who doesn't let boys be boys.


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    #130
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    ash23 wrote: »
    The issue wasn't the church though?
    How is a one off trip up the road to the athletics field (about a 5 min walk) or a walk down to the garda station (10 mins) any different from a walk to the church?

    I'm talking about things "off site".
    And in my opinion and experience (both in my own education and my daughters), things happen "off site" in school fairly regularly which are only communicated to the parents by the children or after the event.

    Our experiences are very different so.

    Personally I would see a trip (mid week) to a police station or church as unusual, and trip to a playing/athletics field as not unusual. I could understand communion or confirmation class going to the church a couple of times. Otherwise I think it unusual.

    I would be curious to learn the purpose for the 4yrs trip to the church. Is that going to be a regular occurrence.


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    #131
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    Goes to show that all school policies and dynamics are different. Mine go to a small school (<100 pupils). There is no school secretary, no newsletter, no texts, phone calls to the school aren't answered because everyone is teaching. The school is so tied in with the Church that school announcements are sometimes made at Church. Since it would be only a very tiny minority who would raise eyebrows at this there's not much point.


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    #132
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    littlebug wrote: »
    Goes to show that all school policies and dynamics are different. Mine go to a small school (<100 pupils). There is no school secretary, no newsletter, no texts, phone calls to the school aren't answered because everyone is teaching. The school is so tied in with the Church that school announcements are sometimes made at Church. Since it would be only a very tiny minority who would raise eyebrows at this there's not much point.

    There is no one there to answer the phone?

    Does it have electricity?


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    #133
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    There is no one there to answer the phone?

    Does it have electricity?

    lol yes:D

    The headmaster teaches two year groups. There is no one working there aside from the teachers who are teaching. School admin is done outside of school hours (I assume).


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    #134
    thesimpsons
    Registered Users Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭thesimpsons


    I've been involved in 3 primary schools on both BOMs and parents associations and loved the spontanity the schools could provide that they could on a fine day take the kids on a walk was lovely. It would always take place during school hours and always with plenty of staff supervision, and if ever a parent turned up and needed to take a child home early, other teachers and principal always knew where they were. School policies (which are mandatory) would have the correct pupil/adult ratio outlined. There is so much more to school than just sitting inside learning and a teacher cannot possibly (I imagine - I'm not a teacher) have a plan that can't be deviated from to take allowances of good weather. What if teacher wanted to do irish lesson outdoors to learn the vocab, what about in geography when they have to learn about different types of buildings, what about in history where there might be something very local of interest. Teacher or school couldn't possibly contact all parents all the time for these things. You have to trust some people some of the time.


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    #135
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    littlebug wrote: »
    Goes to show that all school policies and dynamics are different. Mine go to a small school (<100 pupils). There is no school secretary, no newsletter, no texts, phone calls to the school aren't answered because everyone is teaching. The school is so tied in with the Church that school announcements are sometimes made at Church. Since it would be only a very tiny minority who would raise eyebrows at this there's not much point.

    Sounds cool.


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    #136
    cc-offe
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭cc-offe


    thesimpsons wrote: »
    You have to trust some people some of the time.

    Don't know what you mean by that comment as if my child is with someone else I do trust them. Trusting a teacher doesn't entitle them to bring them off the premises without consent IMO.


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    #137
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    ^ Just as an off note- I was informed by my local playschool manager that technically the ratio for four year olds is 10:1 but primary schools get away with not obliging that.


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    #138
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    When I was a kid in primary, 4th class I think, one teacher used to let us go down to the pitches and play football on nice days for the afternoon. It was great at the time, but in hindsight our school work suffered we did it so much.


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    #139
    planetX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭planetX


    My sons school does exactly the same - I don't think mass counts as an excursion, it's all so enmeshed with the school unfortunately.


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    #140
    thesimpsons
    Registered Users Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭thesimpsons


    cc-offe wrote: »
    Don't know what you mean by that comment as if my child is with someone else I do trust them. Trusting a teacher doesn't entitle them to bring them off the premises without consent IMO.

    All I mean is that if you trust the teachers you will have to trust that they are doing the right thing, the safe thing and trust that they have the interests of the kid's education at heart, and trust that sometimes not everything can be communicated in advance.


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    #141
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    planetX wrote: »
    My sons school does exactly the same - I don't think mass counts as an excursion, it's all so enmeshed with the school unfortunately.

    Church trying to gather more to the fold after so many turning away from the church in recent years?


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    #142
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    BostonB wrote: »
    Our experiences are very different so.

    Personally I would see a trip (mid week) to a police station or church as unusual, and trip to a playing/athletics field as not unusual. I could understand communion or confirmation class going to the church a couple of times. Otherwise I think it unusual.

    I would be curious to learn the purpose for the 4yrs trip to the church. Is that going to be a regular occurrence.

    When they took my daughters JI class to the church it was for them to listen to the 6th class girls practicing their singing for the confirmation. And the time after that there was a retreat with singing and dancing. Not "mass" as such.

    They went to the track to try out for community games. I heard about it that evening. They went to the garda station as it had just opened and one kid in the class had a garda dad who arranged it. I heard about it that evening.

    The fitness thing was just part of a get healthy week, where they also did "food dudes". We had to give written permission for that because of allergies ( the kids were given fruit and veggies).
    Another time they went to watch the special olympic torch pass through and another it was to watch a cycling race going through. It involved a walk down to the main road.

    This stuff happens fairly regularly and it isn't always planned in advance. if we are told it is never with a "can we bring them". It's a "we are going".

    My daughter has had so many lovely experiences and I hope she'll have many more and honestly, I'm glad the other parents are in agreement because they'd miss so much if every single trip had to be regimented.


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    #143
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Anotger way to look at the issue, school sends home permission slip for trip, 2 children out of 30 do not have their slips on the day of the trip.I promise you if they were left at home, there would be a hue and cry and the school would probably end up on Joe Duffy.

    I don't see why you have to know exactly where your child is during school time, what difference does it make?


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    #144
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    ^ Well Im sure my mother would have loved to know where I was when I was playing hooky at 5. The school never called her to confirm I was home sick.

    My secondary school did things like that but primary no.


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    #145
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I've not heard of retreats for 4yrs or them trying out for community games before.


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    #146
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Anotger way to look at the issue, school sends home permission slip for trip, 2 children out of 30 do not have their slips on the day of the trip.I promise you if they were left at home, there would be a hue and cry and the school would probably end up on Joe Duffy.

    I don't see why you have to know exactly where your child is during school time, what difference does it make?

    Those two kids get put in the back of the class of another year to be supervised by that that classes teacher. It happens all the time and it doesn't get put on Joe Duffy, the onus is on the parents to check the school bag for notes and to make sure the slip is signed and returned.

    Some times the school will ring and if a parent can make it to the school and sign the slip the child is let go.


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    #147
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    1. The nub of this discussion is that ANY trip off the school premises should be notified to the parents and consent given before the child can go ESPECIALLY in the case of small children. Whether it's to a church, a mosque or a museum is irrelevant.

    2. In reality in Ireland most schools are still Catholic-run schools but this does not mean that all children attending and their parents are Catholic or even religious, since there is no choice in a lot of areas. I know OP this was not your problem, but I bet there were kids in that group for whom it would be a problem due to religious reasons.

    So in conclusion I would say your school acted irresponsibly.


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    #148
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ash23 wrote: »
    When they took my daughters JI class to the church it was for them to listen to the 6th class girls practicing their singing for the confirmation. And the time after that there was a retreat with singing and dancing. Not "mass" as such.

    They went to the track to try out for community games. I heard about it that evening. They went to the garda station as it had just opened and one kid in the class had a garda dad who arranged it. I heard about it that evening.

    The fitness thing was just part of a get healthy week, where they also did "food dudes". We had to give written permission for that because of allergies ( the kids were given fruit and veggies).
    Another time they went to watch the special olympic torch pass through and another it was to watch a cycling race going through. It involved a walk down to the main road.

    This stuff happens fairly regularly and it isn't always planned in advance. if we are told it is never with a "can we bring them". It's a "we are going".

    My daughter has had so many lovely experiences and I hope she'll have many more and honestly, I'm glad the other parents are in agreement because they'd miss so much if every single trip had to be regimented.

    They are leaving themselves wide open to litigation and accusations of all sorts. I am sure they are doing it with the best of intentions but those days are gone for better or for worse.


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    #149
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    BostonB wrote: »
    I've not heard of retreats for 4yrs or them trying out for community games before.


    Sigh. Just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


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    #150
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    professore wrote: »
    They are leaving themselves wide open to litigation and accusations of all sorts. I am sure they are doing it with the best of intentions but those days are gone for better or for worse.

    Those days aren't gone because thankfully, majority of parents are ok with it.
    Yeah, all it takes is ONE parent to sue the school and it's gone for everyone.

    having said that, we sign consent forms upon enrolement.
    I think they're covered.


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    #151
    Tipsygypsy
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭Tipsygypsy


    ash23 wrote: »
    When they took my daughters JI class to the church it was for them to listen to the 6th class girls practicing their singing for the confirmation. And the time after that there was a retreat with singing and dancing. Not "mass" as such.

    They went to the track to try out for community games. I heard about it that evening. They went to the garda station as it had just opened and one kid in the class had a garda dad who arranged it. I heard about it that evening.

    The fitness thing was just part of a get healthy week, where they also did "food dudes". We had to give written permission for that because of allergies ( the kids were given fruit and veggies).
    Another time they went to watch the special olympic torch pass through and another it was to watch a cycling race going through. It involved a walk down to the main road.

    This stuff happens fairly regularly and it isn't always planned in advance. if we are told it is never with a "can we bring them". It's a "we are going".

    My daughter has had so many lovely experiences and I hope she'll have many more and honestly, I'm glad the other parents are in agreement because they'd miss so much if every single trip had to be regimented.


    That all sounds really great, and I so hope that my children have many wonderful school experiences, inside and outside of the classroom. I dont think that the OP is against any off-site activities. But she was never made aware that they would be happening. Simple as, she never had any idea that the school would take her son off the property without letting her know. Its not that much to ask that the school inform all new parents at the start of the year what kind of off site excursions the kids might take.
    OP, I have been very active on my kids' school parents association from my eldest was in junior infants and it has really helped me to understand how our school works and be able to help out with many of the events and activities. My kids go to a school where parental involvement is hugely encouraged, I dont know if that is the case in your sons school, but for me it has been of great benefit.


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