Arguments about teaching children god is real

Truley · 21-09-2010 07:51PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think the difference between lying that a big fat man is the one that brings your presents and that you'll burn for eternity for daring to stroke your own genitals is fairly obvious, no?

I didn't say there was no difference, I said there are alot of similarities.

One is considered a 'good' lie because people perceive it as harmless. Just the same way many people think teaching the Alive O style curriculum of religion is harmless, even beneficial.

And before you bring up religion's track record, in my parents time it wasn't unknown for parents to tell their kids that santa is watching them and would bring a stick if they didn't behave.

Both ideas can be used with good intentions, or negative, manipulative ones. That's what I meant.

Ickle Magoo · 21-09-2010 08:24PM

Again, I think it says more about the people using the threats than the story of either santa or whatever holy book you choose. People can & unfortunately usually do make threats and torment and bully others using pretty much anything as justification. The difference here being some people have taken the story of santa and injected their own brand of nastiness whereas when it comes to religions, threats of hell and guilt association is actually part & parcel of the official dogma.

shinfujiwara · 21-09-2010 09:29PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

That has more to do with a disciplining parenting style than it does with religion.

It was my first grade teachers belief that bad language was wrong. So she would hang you over the sink and stick a bar of soap all over your tongue and then make you rinse and spit.

People often get punished for contravening parent's beliefs. A punch in the face is abuse for whatever reason. When I was growing up, a belt or hairbrush certainly was not considered abusive enough to call authorities. And people got them for mouthing back to skipping school to stealing snacks from the fridge.

I don't think I "happened to be lucky." I think your girlfriend has an asshole for a father.

If you at least watched the documentaries, maybe you would change your mind about that. You can see bad parenting happening because of religion beliefs. Not only bad parenting, but lousy education system. People teaching you that the Earth has 10.000 years only. This is certainly not a good thing to do with our young.

Take a shot, they're both pretty good. I believe you won't regret it.

Truley · 21-09-2010 09:34PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Again, I think it says more about the people using the threats than the story of either santa or whatever holy book you choose. People can & unfortunately usually do make threats and torment and bully others using pretty much anything as justification. The difference here being some people have taken the story of santa and injected their own brand of nastiness whereas when it comes to religions, threats of hell and guilt association is actually part & parcel of the official dogma.

There are thousands upon thousands of religions in the world, including plenty that don't promote hell or hatred.

Ickle Magoo · 21-09-2010 09:38PM

Truley wrote: »

There are thousands upon thousands of religions in the world, including plenty that don't promote hell or hatred.

And as many that have no santa?

My responses are in the context of the OP...

shinfujiwara · 21-09-2010 09:44PM

Truley wrote: »

There are thousands upon thousands of religions in the world, including plenty that don't promote hell or hatred.

Yet, the majority at least threaten you with things like this, by my understanding. Being Christianity the major group.

Just a thought.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Prevailing_world_religions_map.png

Truley · 21-09-2010 10:07PM

shinfujiwara wrote: »

Yet, the majority at least threaten you with things like this, by my understanding. Being Christianity the major group.

Just a thought.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Prevailing_world_religions_map.png

Alot do and alot don't. My boyfriend was raised wiccan for example, and there was no dogma about hell or masturbation. He's not religious now, but he certainly doesn't feel like he was harmed by his upbringing, or that his religion was used to abuse him.

So in short I wouldn't bring my own children up religious, but I don't think that parents who do are necessarily 'abusing' their kids. Like with the santa thing, they genuinely think that they are helping and comforting their children. They may not be right, but that doesn't necessarily equate it to abuse.

Ickle Magoo · 21-09-2010 10:32PM

I'm not sure I'd agree with "a lot don't" - Wicca is hardly one of the main religions in the world. I appreciate we are using some generalities to avoid verbosity but when people talk about heaven and hell and make reference to the abrahamic religions it is because they represent by far most of the worlds religious followers.

nozzferrahhtoo · 22-09-2010 09:07AM

Cróga wrote: »

Religion = child abuse.

I am not sure I know any people at all who would claim this.

More often the claim is that telling a child what religion it is, before they know themselves, is "child abuse". I think myself the term is a little OTT, but I get what the people who say it mean by it.

Me, I would rather call it a massive failure in parenting, but not child abuse.

As has been pointed out though, many of the people who actually do it would baulk before pointing at a 5 year old and calling them a Republican, a Democrat, a nihilisit etc etc etc. Yet somehow they do not see the issue here.

metrovelvet · 22-09-2010 11:23AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am not sure I know any people at all who would claim this.

More often the claim is that telling a child what religion it is, before they know themselves, is "child abuse". I think myself the term is a little OTT, but I get what the people who say it mean by it.

Me, I would rather call it a massive failure in parenting, but not child abuse.

As has been pointed out though, many of the people who actually do it would baulk before pointing at a 5 year old and calling them a Republican, a Democrat, a nihilisit etc etc etc. Yet somehow they do not see the issue here.

No they wouldnt. People stick sports club shirts on their babies. Ive seen baby/toddler republican and democrat clothes.

Truley · 22-09-2010 12:32PM

I think I was confused by the thread title, I had presumed we were discussing religion in general. But having re read the OP it's more to do with teaching children a specific fire and brimstone form of Christianity. I still stand by what I said though, it's not child abuse, narrow mindedness maybe. But then again so is teaching your children to make gross generalisations about religion, calling religions inherently evil or it's followers ignorant etc

metrovelvet · 22-09-2010 12:55PM

Truley wrote: »

I think I was confused by the thread title, I had presumed we were discussing religion in general. But having re read the OP it's more to do with teaching children a specific fire and brimstone form of Christianity. I still stand by what I said though, it's not child abuse, narrow mindedness maybe. But then again so is teaching your children to make gross generalisations about religion, calling religions inherently evil or it's followers ignorant etc

Quite frankly Im not sure what consitutes real anymore anyhow. Todays youth have their relationships and personal interactions refracted and filtered through text messaging and facebook. I hardly get real photographs in the post anymore - just as email attachments.

The world is becoming an abstracted place.

Ickle Magoo · 22-09-2010 02:55PM

Truley wrote: »

I think I was confused by the thread title, I had presumed we were discussing religion in general. But having re read the OP it's more to do with teaching children a specific fire and brimstone form of Christianity. I still stand by what I said though, it's not child abuse, narrow mindedness maybe. But then again so is teaching your children to make gross generalisations about religion, calling religions inherently evil or it's followers ignorant etc

Absolutely - much better to show children all the available options and allow them to develop their own opinions, even if it does sometime result in them reaching the same conclusion.

aidan24326 · 22-09-2010 05:35PM

shinfujiwara wrote: »

I must agree with Cróga, because till today I've never met a faithful that truly respect their children. If the child says "I don't think that's true" - "I don't believe that jesus will do this to me" - "I don't want to do this." They just try to change the kid, they won't just say "OK son, I respect your beliefs."

About 99% of the times they will just force the kid to change and believe in what they believe. If you are religious and don't do that, then you're part of a minority.

Which reminds me of this amateur video:

-Scary American mother lamabsts teenage son for rejecting religion-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

I'm sure a similiar scene has played out many many times.

shinfujiwara · 22-09-2010 06:52PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

Which reminds me of this amateur video:

-Scary American mother lamabsts teenage son for rejecting religion-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

I'm sure a similiar scene has played out many many times.

Yeah... that kind of thing makes me sick. And religion gives the power of confidence to this kind of people. They feel as an obligation to do that, it is a perfect excuse for them to be bad parents.

"Without religion you have bad people doing bad things, and good people doing good things. It takes religion to make good people do bad things."

The number of times that I've seen scenes like that in my life is extraordinary. When I was a teenager it was pretty more frequently. When there was only me and other teenagers in their house, they felt much more "powerful" all of sudden. Spanking their child in front of me because all sorts of ridiculous reasons, saying Jesus this, Jesus that.

Would the character known as Jesus Christ do these things? I'm sure he wouldn't. George Carlin once said something like this "People want to know what Jesus would do not for them to do the same, but to tell you what to do."

Cróga · 22-09-2010 07:53PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm not saying all religion is the same as what is generally referred to as child abuse, but maybe the term 'child abuse' shouldn't be exclusive to physical or sexual violence

It isnt. Emotional abuse is also child abuse, which apparently is worse than physical abuse in the long term.

shinfujiwara wrote: »

Yeah... that kind of thing makes me sick. And religion gives the power of confidence to this kind of people. They feel as an obligation to do that, it is a perfect excuse for them to be bad parents.

"Without religion you have bad people doing bad things, and good people doing good things. It takes religion to make good people do bad things."

The number of times that I've seen scenes like that in my life is extraordinary. When I was a teenager it was pretty more frequently. When there was only me and other teenagers in their house, they felt much more "powerful" all of sudden. Spanking their child in front of me because all sorts of ridiculous reasons, saying Jesus this, Jesus that.

Would the character known as Jesus Christ do these things? I'm sure he wouldn't. George Carlin once said something like this "People want to know what Jesus would do not for them to do the same, but to tell you what to do."

Religion is a get out of conscience free card. Its an excuse to abuse people. Why would they need to take the effort to go to people directly looking forgiveness when they can use some imaginary being to forgive them in an instance.

faceman · 23-09-2010 10:33AM

Cróga wrote: »

Religion is a get out of conscience free card. Its an excuse to abuse people. Why would they need to take the effort to go to people directly looking forgiveness when they can use some imaginary being to forgive them in an instance.

What a crock of bull. Whats "religion" or are we still talking about Catholicism now? Have you read the Koran? Have you read the Tibetan Book of the Living and the Death?

Religion didnt abuse children, men did.
Religion didnt cover up child abuse, men did.
Religion did not justify covering it up, men did.

In fact, if you want to take Catholicism seeing as it seems to be your definition of religion, its even clearly writen in the bible that any sin committed against a child is considering far worse in the eyes of God, than if the same sin was committed against an adult.

Can you cite examples of how "religion" is an excuse to abuse people and how that differs from those who have no religion?

Nevyn · 23-09-2010 11:00AM

Truley wrote: »

Alot do and alot don't. My boyfriend was raised wiccan for example, and there was no dogma about hell or masturbation. He's not religious now, but he certainly doesn't feel like he was harmed by his upbringing, or that his religion was used to abuse him.

No one is raised Wiccan, many people are raised to be pagan but Wicca does not have children as members.

Herbal Deity · 23-09-2010 11:14AM

Thaedydal wrote: »

No one is raised Wiccan, many people are raised to be pagan but Wicca does not have children as members.

I would imagine a lot of people would call themselves "Wiccan" in the same way many people call themselves "Christian" or "Catholic". I know of people who were "raised Wiccan" also.

When it comes to religion, I've always noticed that no matter how well defined a term is in terms of a set of beliefs and practices, there will always be a large amount of people who will identify with the term while having different beliefs to what the term actually implies.

It's most common with "Catholics" in Ireland, and it's bizarre.

Truley · 23-09-2010 06:41PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

No one is raised Wiccan, many people are raised to be pagan but Wicca does not have children as members.

Sorry, I should have said wiccan parents, or wiccan household. He or his siblings were never involved in it. Which was my point that not all religions try to promote childhood indoctrination or guilt association. On paper at least.

shinfujiwara · 23-09-2010 11:02PM

faceman wrote: »

What a crock of bull. Whats "religion" or are we still talking about Catholicism now? Have you read the Koran? Have you read the Tibetan Book of the Living and the Death?

Religion didnt abuse children, men did.
Religion didnt cover up child abuse, men did.
Religion did not justify covering it up, men did.

In fact, if you want to take Catholicism seeing as it seems to be your definition of religion, its even clearly writen in the bible that any sin committed against a child is considering far worse in the eyes of God, than if the same sin was committed against an adult.

Can you cite examples of how "religion" is an excuse to abuse people and how that differs from those who have no religion?

But isn't that the same as Catholicism? Because the parents that beat them probably have the knowledge to know that Jesus Christ would never do things like that.

Yet, they do it because they know that he or God would also forgive them, if asked for it.

Personally, I can't comment about the behavior of a believer in that religion. Never met one. But I get your point, we generalize because most countries are Christians, and more importantly, the people that we see are. I acknowledge that I probably should have written "Christians", not "religious", in my preview posts.

metrovelvet · 23-09-2010 11:28PM

shinfujiwara wrote: »

But isn't that the same as Catholicism? Because the parents that beat them probably have the knowledge to know that Jesus Christ would never do things like that.

Yet, they do it because they know that he or God would also forgive them, if asked for it.

Personally, I can't comment about the behavior of a believer in that religion. Never met one. But I get your point, we generalize because most countries are Christians, and more importantly, the people that we see are. I acknowledge that I probably should have written "Christians", not "religious", in my preview posts.

I think you are letting what happened to your girlfriend lead you to false and selective abstractions.

shinfujiwara · 23-09-2010 11:37PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think you are letting what happened to your girlfriend lead you to false and selective abstractions.

I already said many times that this kind of thing happened with many different persons that I knew or saw. I could say the same to you, "I think what happened to you lead you to false and selective abstractions."

Haven't you ever seen a faithful like that one in the video posted by aidan24326? Because that kind of thing is amazingly normal for me, lost the count when I still was a little boy.

And haven't you seen the documentaries that I posted to you? What is your opinion about that?

metrovelvet · 24-09-2010 12:00AM

shinfujiwara wrote: »

I already said many times that this kind of thing happened with many different persons that I knew or saw. I could say the same to you, "I think what happened to you lead you to false and selective abstractions."

Haven't you ever seen a faithful like that one in the video posted by aidan24326? Because that kind of thing is amazingly normal for me, lost the count when I still was a little boy.

And haven't you seen the documentaries that I posted to you? What is your opinion about that?

None of that is normal to me. The greatest abuse of religion I have seen are jetplanes going through two big buildings in my native city. And they were not Christians.

You are proslytising now.

shinfujiwara · 24-09-2010 12:06AM

metrovelvet wrote: »

None of that is normal to me. The greatest abuse of religion I have seen are jetplanes going through two big buildings in my native city. And they were not Christians.

You are proslytising now.

If you want to close your eyes for things that actually happen, what can I do? You didn't even see the documentaries that I tried to show to you. If you were really interested about it, wouldn't you at least show some interest?

Just because things didn't happened to you, doesn't mean they don't happened at all. You can say "that's not normal to me, I've never seen things like that". Fine, but they happened with a lot of people. This isn't only about you or me.

Do you think that your reality alone is the face of the Earth? I really can't understand you right now.

faceman · 24-09-2010 10:24AM

shinfujiwara wrote: »

But isn't that the same as Catholicism? Because the parents that beat them probably have the knowledge to know that Jesus Christ would never do things like that.

Yet, they do it because they know that he or God would also forgive them, if asked for it.

Regardless of what religion a person is, forgiveness is a very noble virtue, be it to forgive oneself or to forgive others. I would hate to think that forgiveness is reserved for those of the Catholic faith.

metrovelvet · 24-09-2010 10:49AM

faceman wrote: »

Regardless of what religion a person is, forgiveness is a very noble virtue, be it to forgive oneself or to forgive others. I would hate to think that forgiveness is reserved for those of the Catholic faith.

Absolutely. And we just passed the Jewish Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, a whole day set aside to forgive those who crossed you and to pray for forgiveness from those you have sinned against.

Catholics do this in their daily prayer the Our Father.

I am not familiar enough with the details of other religions to know their practises around forgiveness.

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-09-2010 11:30AM

metrovelvet wrote: »

No they wouldnt. People stick sports club shirts on their babies. Ive seen baby/toddler republican and democrat clothes.

I said MANY people. Anecdotal experience of exceptions does not exactly negate the point

You are right of course: There will be some who label their kids republican, or Liverpool supporters or whatever.

Simply what I was trying to point out is how many people would baulk before doing one, yet happily engage in the other. And very many people who happily call a child a "Christian Child" would think you ridiculous for calling another child a "Republican Child".

And rarely do each group see the fault in themselves while they point it out in others.

I think, as I said, that whether it is politics, religion or football that it is a massive failure in parenting to not realise your child is an as yet unformed individual on matters such as that... and not some automatic default extension of yourself. Some people call that "child abuse" but I think this is overkill. "A massive failure in parenting" is good enough for me.

metrovelvet · 24-09-2010 11:50AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I said MANY people. Anecdotal experience of exceptions does not exactly negate the point

You are right of course: There will be some who label their kids republican, or Liverpool supporters or whatever.

Simply what I was trying to point out is how many people would baulk before doing one, yet happily engage in the other. And very many people who happily call a child a "Christian Child" would think you ridiculous for calling another child a "Republican Child".

And rarely do each group see the fault in themselves while they point it out in others.

I think, as I said, that whether it is politics, religion or football that it is a massive failure in parenting to not realise your child is an as yet unformed individual on matters such as that... and not some automatic default extension of yourself. Some people call that "child abuse" but I think this is overkill. "A massive failure in parenting" is good enough for me.

See I dont know. If I stuck a NY Yankees shirt on my three year old or an Ireland Jersey he would have no idea what either of those things meant. The thing is though, is if he saw me watching the Yankees, which I never do, he probably would want a yankees shirt. And if I get him one that doesnt mean Im raising him as an extension of myself but it would be a bit short sighted to think that they are influenced by their parents and their homelife.

Yet... the three year old two doors down LOVES his MAYO jersey. And loves the Mayo teams.

shinfujiwara · 24-09-2010 09:34PM

faceman wrote: »

Regardless of what religion a person is, forgiveness is a very noble virtue, be it to forgive oneself or to forgive others. I would hate to think that forgiveness is reserved for those of the Catholic faith.

Thinking like that, some people find the courage to do these things that I talked about. No matter what they will do to themselves or others, no matter which religion, they will definitely be forgiven. That's an amazing boost in courage, the "ultimate excuse" for every action. If you rape and kill a little girl, just ask for forgiveness that you will earn it. Fairly simple, if you think about it.

You see, I'm not saying that an "evil person" is bad only because of religion beliefs, that would be ridiculous. But it does many times act like a protection, a reason not to care. Could be the thing that will determine if another's life will be lost or not. Isn't that what history tells us? How much suffering the catholic church caused in the "name of God" till today?

Yet, I must admit that you can also find the oppose effect in religion. There is a few people that actually follow, or try to follow the Jesus Christ kind of life. And that would be a man that truly thinks about others, the kind of person who GENUINELY fight for love to ALL human beings. But in reality? To find this kind of good samaritan is as hard as find €5000 in your coat. Even in fiction, this kind of character is almost gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwM Interesting video.

Arguments about teaching children god is real

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