Corporal Punishment at school.

topper75

Truley wrote: »

If the only thing that stopped you from doing these thing was a slap from a parent, I'm surprised you didn't start doing it at eighteen.

So you assume that I was the same person at 18 that I was at 5?? I think I know now where this is going wrong.

topper75

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But why should disciplining a child have to involve getting physical with them?

Because they cannot be reasoned with! They are kids. You can ask them to stop throwing food on the floor. You can explain that Mammy will have to clean it up and she is tired of cleaning. If there is still no response, a little smack usually indicates Mam isn't joking. Animals are the same, if they don't respond to the verbal correction, it is time to get physical. It's part of life. Not smacking is just another daft 1960s hippie idea.

AudreyHepburn

topper75 wrote: »

Because they cannot be reasoned with! They are kids. You can ask them to stop throwing food on the floor. You can explain that Mammy will have to clean it up and she is tired of cleaning. If there is still no response, a little smack usually indicates Mam isn't joking. Animals are the same, if they don't respond to the verbal correction, it is time to get physical. It's part of life. Not smacking is just another daft 1960s hippie idea.

Ok so now you're equating a child with an animal. That is really worrying.

Of course children can be reasoned with. For instance if you decide that each time your child refuses to clean up they will lose a favourite toy or have to sit on a naughty chair or something and you make sure you stick that everytime the child is naughty sooner or later they will learn that they must clean or they will lose teddy or barbie or whatever.

It's about being firm with them and not giving ground, letting them see that Mammy won't tolerate boldness. It's not about hurting them or teaching them that violence is the way to get people to do what you want.

topper75

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Ok so now you're equating a child with an animal. That is really worrying.

I'm not 'equating' them as you put it. I am saying that they are subject to discipline from me as their parent (or owner in the case of an animal). I reserve the right to discipline them both with a slap when my attempt at verbal correction has failed.

This 'taking away a toy' suggestion is typical of those parenting handbooks that pay no heed to reality. It's simply another further effort at verbal discipline, and in the moment means nothing to the child who is misbehaving. The moment is all the child thinks about. The slap is far, far more direct.

AudreyHepburn

topper75 wrote: »

The slap is far, far more direct.

And potentially far more damaging.

Ronald Sherrif

Children are inferior to adults in the sense that one adult is inferior to another. E.G. the boss is superior to his staff. Children need to be taught their place. many children are not taught to respect adults and have an exaggerated view of their own place in society.

jenny jinks

I think corporasl punishment is vital in education. I did not get corporal punishment at school or at home and I was lazy and underachieved. Recently I have been doing professional exams related to my field of work. I was going nowhere until a friend of mine who is also doing these exams told me about a strict tutor. She is in her 20s and runs classes for the tow of us on very traditional lines.
We have to stand up when she comes into the roo and call her miss at alll times. She gives us written homework and also tells us to learn things by heart. At the start of every class she checks our homework and if it is not done or there are mistakes in either the oral or the written work she beats our hands with a cane. It is awful and hurts but it works! I now study religiously between classes and double check everything. I wish it had been done to me in school. I wouldn't be where I am today.

dvpower

topper75 wrote: »

You've got my curiousity up now that you are so anti slapping kids. How do you cope with a toddler's supermarket tantrum? Ask nicely perhaps?

I do have a couple of kids and, for the most part, they know that throwing a tantrum in the supermarket isn't going to be tolerated. They know this because I've always made it very clear to them how far they can go before they get into trouble.

On the rare occaisions that they have trown a supermarket tantrum, I've given them a stern look so they know they're in trouble. On one occasion I've had to remove my child from the supermarket.

Did you think that the only choices were asking nicely and giving them a few slaps?

dvpower

jenny jinks wrote: »

I think corporasl punishment is vital in education. I did not get corporal punishment at school or at home and I was lazy and underachieved. Recently I have been doing professional exams related to my field of work. I was going nowhere until a friend of mine who is also doing these exams told me about a strict tutor. She is in her 20s and runs classes for the tow of us on very traditional lines.
We have to stand up when she comes into the roo and call her miss at alll times. She gives us written homework and also tells us to learn things by heart. At the start of every class she checks our homework and if it is not done or there are mistakes in either the oral or the written work she beats our hands with a cane. It is awful and hurts but it works! I now study religiously between classes and double check everything. I wish it had been done to me in school. I wouldn't be where I am today.

wtf?

dvpower

topper75 wrote: »

This 'taking away a toy' suggestion is typical of those parenting handbooks that pay no heed to reality.

This actually does work for me. On rare occaisions I've taken away a toy and thrown it in the bin. Works very well indeed.

WindSock

Does anyone who ever got a smack on the arse or hand as a child seriously feel that they are damaged for life?

crabfeet

dvpower wrote: »

wtf?

Is the tutor Indian? That kind of thing is very common in some states in India where private colleges specialise in forcing students who are often into their 20s and married with children through exams.

jenny jinks

crabfeet wrote: »

Is the tutor Indian? That kind of thing is very common in some states in India where private colleges specialise in forcing students who are often into their 20s and married with children through exams.

No the tutor is Irish. Her methods really work though!

Milk & Honey

jenny jinks wrote: »

I At the start of every class she checks our homework and if it is not done or there are mistakes in either the oral or the written work she beats our hands with a cane. It is awful and hurts but it works!

Don't your hands get bruised from the caning? How do you write? How can you do your work which I assume must involve typing and or writing?

jenny jinks

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Don't your hands get bruised from the caning? How do you write? How can you do your work which I assume must involve typing and or writing?

My hands do get bruised. The classes are on Friday evening and Sunday morning. If I get less than four strokes of the cane, the swelling is usually gone by the next day. If I get more than six it lasts a lot longer. It hasn't affected my work so far.

Kosseegan

It would save a fortune for the government, if instead of putting a laptop in every classroom, they put in a cane. Canes are a lot cheaper than laptops and need much less maintenance. The pupil teacher could be raised by about ten per class so saving a fortune on salaries. There would be a boost to the smart economy as children would emerge from school who could do basic arithmetic in their heads and spell properly.

Truley

Kosseegan wrote: »

It would save a fortune for the government, if instead of putting a laptop in every classroom, they put in a cane. Canes are a lot cheaper than laptops and need much less maintenance. The pupil teacher could be raised by about ten per class so saving a fortune on salaries. There would be a boost to the smart economy as children would emerge from school who could do basic arithmetic in their heads and spell properly.

Do you have any credible evidence to back up a correlation between violence and intelligence, or are you just saying that? :rolleyes:

Cianos

Trolls in abundance in this thread

Kosseegan

Truley wrote: »

Do you have any credible evidence to back up a correlation between violence and intelligence, or are you just saying that? :rolleyes:

I haven't said that. Just because one person can spell better than another person does not mean they are more intelligent. It just means they are better educated.

dvpower

Kosseegan wrote: »

I haven't said that. Just because one person can spell better than another person does not mean they are more intelligent. It just means they are better educated.

I'd settle for some evidence for a causal link between violence and better educational outcomes.

Mary Hairy

Well when I was at school, youi got the cane for mistakes in spelling and grammar. You very quickly learned to spell properly and write carefully. What you see nowadays from some graduates is appalling. Tghe same with multiplication tables. Whatever is going on children at school are just not being taught. At the same time teachers are saying they have no control in classrooms and large numbers leave school not able to read or write.

dvpower

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Well when I was at school, youi got the cane for mistakes in spelling and grammar. You very quickly learned to spell properly and write carefully. What you see nowadays from some graduates is appalling. Tghe same with multiplication tables. Whatever is going on children at school are just not being taught. At the same time teachers are saying they have no control in classrooms and large numbers leave school not able to read or write.

Your beatings weren't hard enough.:rolleyes:

Mary Hairy

dvpower wrote: »

Your beatings weren't hard enough.:rolleyes:

If it had been handwriteen and handed up at school it would have resulted in at least four strokes of the cane, two on each hand.

spoonface

drakshug wrote: »

I thought the EU banned it in 82 or 83.
Primary school was a ruler across the knuckles or a spanking on the arse.
Secondary was the tawse with two or three tongues. The teachers had it under their robes over their shoulder (Scotland).
The there was the well aimed duster. To tell the truth, getting the belt was better than post CP when they gave you detention or lines.

That early? Woah. I remember getting a whack of the steel-edged ruler in Belvedere in 85.

Milk & Honey

drakshug wrote: »

I thought the EU banned it in 82 or 83.
Primary school was a ruler across the knuckles or a spanking on the arse.
Secondary was the tawse with two or three tongues. The teachers had it under their robes over their shoulder (Scotland).
The there was the well aimed duster. To tell the truth, getting the belt was better than post CP when they gave you detention or lines.

The EU never banned corporal punishment in schools. In 1982 corporal punishment was stopped in state funded schools in Ireland by order of the minister for education. There have been cases taken to the european co0urt of human rights about corporal punishment.

crabfeet

Mary Hairy wrote: »

If it had been handwriteen and handed up at school it would have resulted in at least four strokes of the cane, two on each hand.

Caning on the hand is dangerous. It can result in bones being broken in the hands.

Mary Hairy

crabfeet wrote: »

Caning on the hand is dangerous. It can result in bones being broken in the hands.

There was plenly of caning on the hands when I was at school, sometimes six on each hand. No one ever got a broken bone. Afew cuts and a bit of bruising maybe.

dvpower

Mary Hairy wrote: »

There was plenly of caning on the hands when I was at school, sometimes six on each hand. No one ever got a broken bone. Afew cuts and a bit of bruising maybe.

Here's what a group of US orthopedic surgeons say:

There exists a whole range of orthopedic complications which can result from striking the hand of a child with a cane, ruler, strap or other such implement. The hand is particularly sensitive to injury because of the proximity of the ligaments, tendons, nerves and blood vessels to the skin, which does not have underlying protective tissue. Younger children are even more susceptible to permanent deformity because of the possibility of injury to growth plates in the bones. Injuries can range from fractures to dislocation, particularly to the terminal phalangeal joint, which could possibly lead to premature osteoarthritic changes. There are also risks of developing severe infections in the fascial spaces of the hand, particularly if there are pre-existing undiagnosed subungual infections. Infections of the hand often require hospitalization, and create a significant risk of loss of function of the hand

Mary Hairy

dvpower wrote: »

Here's what a group of US orthopedic surgeons say:

Nonsense. If that was the case everyone of my age and older as well as lots of younger people would have no use of their hands at all! Typical propaganda put out by the progenitors of the spouilt brat generations.

dvpower

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Nonsense. If that was the case everyone of my age and older as well as lots of younger people would have no use of their hands at all! Typical propaganda put out by the progenitors of the spouilt brat generations.

Of course you're right. Belting someone on the hand with a stick couldn't possibly do any harm at all. The human brain reacts in pain not because it perceives the threat of damage but because it detects the disappointment of a responsible adult. Orthopedic surgeons wouldn't know anything about this anyway. ... la la la la la ....

Mary Hairy

dvpower wrote: »

Of course you're right. Belting someone on the hand with a stick couldn't possibly do any harm at all. The human brain reacts in pain not because it perceives the threat of damage but because it detects the disappointment of a responsible adult. Orthopedic surgeons wouldn't know anything about this anyway. ... la la la la la ....

Have they done studies or is their statement based on speculation? Have they examined people who have been beaten on the hands and compared them to a control group? There are lies damned lies and statistics.

dvpower

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Have they done studies or is their statement based on speculation? Have they examined people who have been beaten on the hands and compared them to a control group? There are lies damned lies and statistics.

Good grief. I've fell foul of a troll.:mad:

Mary Hairy

dvpower wrote: »

Good grief. I've fell foul of a troll.:mad:

A politician; won't answer the question.

David Kavanagh

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Anyone brought up during the 60's and early 70's would have experienced the leather or a slap from a ruler. We had one teacher in Dalkey National who would grab you by the ear and bring you up to the top of the class. Just reading here how a teacher got 90 days jail for doing just that and has since resigned.

How things have changed.

http://english.pravda.ru/news/society/17-09-2010/114980-teacher-0/

Good. Nothing but a bully. There is no excuse for inflicting pain on any student.

dvpower

Mary Hairy wrote: »

A politician; won't answer the question.

I posted a link to the information I provided. Go look yourself.
You dismissed it as nonsense. Can you provide details of the studies that show that its nonsense?



Perhaps we can take it point by point.
1. There exists a whole range of orthopedic complications which can result from striking the hand of a child with a cane, ruler, strap or other such implement.
Can you agree with this? Can you at least admit that an orthopedic surgeon would be qualified to make this statement?

2. The hand is particularly sensitive to injury because of the proximity of the ligaments, tendons, nerves and blood vessels to the skin, which does not have underlying protective tissue.
This is self evident. You don't even need to be an orthopedic surgeon to accept this.

3. Younger children are even more susceptible to permanent deformity because of the possibility of injury to growth plates in the bones.
I'd have thought that its fair enough for a qualified orthopedic surgeon to make this claim. Disagree? Why?

4. Injuries can range from fractures to dislocation, particularly to the terminal phalangeal joint, which could possibly lead to premature osteoarthritic changes.
Again. What do you disagree with here? Why?


5. There are also risks of developing severe infections in the fascial spaces of the hand, particularly if there are pre-existing undiagnosed subungual infections.
Bread and butter for an orthopedic surgeon. No?

6. Infections of the hand often require hospitalization, and create a significant risk of loss of function of the hand
I'd expect an orthopedic surgeon to know this. Do you know better? How?

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Have they done studies or is their statement based on speculation?

Yes they have done studies. So many studies that they managed to qualify as orthopedic surgeons.

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Have they examined people who have been beaten on the hands and compared them to a control group?

A control group? You want them to have a control group of people who haven't been beaten to compare them against people who have? Seriously?

Kosseegan

The hand is very prone to injury. That is why corporal punishment should be on the bottom. Beating the hands was the invention of Victorian prudes who were overly influenced by considerations of modesty.

Ronald Sherrif

Caning on the bottom is potentially more dangerous than caning on the hand. the sciatic nerve can be hit or the kidneys could be damaged. Most teachers these days would not have the skill to use a cane even if they were allowed.

Truley

Cianos wrote: »

Trolls in abundance in this thread

dvpower wrote: »

Good grief. I've fell foul of a troll.:mad:

I've reported this thread because the debate is going nowhere and frankly it's full of trolls and re-regs

Permabear

This post has been deleted.