Murder in Arden View??

mike kelly

Cherrycola wrote: »

Can i borrow your crayon? :rolleyes:

I'd say you would need more than a crayon

Cherrycola

mike kelly wrote: »

I'd say you would need more than a crayon

Quality comeback. :rolleyes:

Yeah, well, yeah, mmmmm...........

Attack the post, not the poster as they say.

offaly1

There are always bad eggs in every part of every town.its very unfair to tar everyone in arden view with the one brush.fair enough there are a few bad eggs,but there are loads of decent people up there too. Went to primary and secondary school in tullamore and the crowd from arden view grand.

Dusty87

Cherrycola wrote: »

Ive got brothers, and as ive already said, friends down there,

I meant the Christian Brothers school:D

Cherrycola wrote: »

Ok so they werent checking on horses, or were driving through coming back from checking horses somewhere else, were visiting parents, whatever, it doesnt change the fact that he wasnt from Arden View and neither was the alleged murderer.

The fight just broke out there, according to the reports.

Or are you trying to say the horses is a cover story and there is some kind of land war/protection racket based around Arden View, that would make the location a central part of the story??

I think what he means is, how many estates do you know that have horses trotting around?? Or in Ardens case, roped up.

magentas

Quazzie wrote: »

I've lived in an estate all my life, and not once have I looked out my window and seen horses grazing.

Join the dots.

I've looked out my window and seen horses grazing...and cows and sheep
I grew up in the country though:D

Lay off cherrycola no need for agro like that and making it personal.
She has valid points and is trying to be positive about the area.

Personally I don't like arden view, it's rough and there are undesirables living there but I wouldn't say they're in the majority.
However it only takes a handful of thugs to give a place a bad rep.

Anyway, back on topic, I believe gardai have made arrests (as oppossed to questioning)
Hopefully there won't be any trouble at funeral

mike kelly

Dusty87 wrote: »

I think what he means is, how many estates do you know that have horses trotting around?? Or in Ardens case, roped up.

Is that clear enough for you now Cherrycola?

Cherrycola

I know you meant CBS Dusty, i just meant i have brothers and male friends who have never gotten a beating in Arden View.

I still think the whole horses thing is actually irrelevant to the story, who cares what they were doing, or where they were coming from, or if its a cover story, the fact still stands, neither party was from Arden View, so unless its proven that the estate itself had anything to do with the row, then the press are highlighting it unnecessarily.
Half of them were from Tuam in Galway if the reports are to be believed, so whats that got to do with Arden View?
If someone cane explain the exact link to the estate itself, and why they believe its relevant, i'll happily listen, but at the moment i cant see it.

And to be honest, if you substituted Kilcruttin Halting Site, for Arden View on this thread, some of whats been said would be considered racist.

Dusty87

I dont think anything that has been said could be described as racist or discrimination. None that i remember anyway. I dont think Quazzie's point about horses was about the storyline. Maybe i picked it up wrong.
A lot of the travellers in 'the site' come from Galway. Irevellent though.
I was just making the point that Arden View isnt the nice frindly place some people were making it out to be. I did say it does have some nice people though and its unfortunate for them. I dont know the mcdonaghs personnaly so i cant make a statement on them, but i do know a few of there cousins, who are quite nice, but keep to themselves mostlys

Storminateacup

The McDonagh family in question are an extremely decent family.

Cherrycola

Dusty87 wrote: »

I dont think anything that has been said could be described as racist or discrimination.

Apart from the stereotypical opinion about someone who keeps horses on an estate.

Like i said, if the same opinion was voiced about Kilcruttin, it would be racist against an ethnic minority.
But its ok to say that Arden View is a kip, full of undesirables, evidence of which includes seeing horses on the estate, which can only mean the place is prone to violence and murder? A very strange comparison to make.
The only thing i think of if i see horses in an estate, is that its quite possible they belong to a traveller family, but i dont automatically assume that the place is a hotbed of crime for that reason only. :eek:


Like ive already said, this feud could have taken place anywhere in town, and i dont believe the picture thats being painted of Arden View in the media is fair or accurate in this instance.

Quazzie

Cherrycola wrote: »

Apart from the stereotypical opinion about someone who keeps horses on an estate.

Like i said, if the same opinion was voiced about Kilcruttin, it would be racist against an ethnic minority.
But its ok to say that Arden View is a kip, full of undesirables, evidence of which includes seeing horses on the estate, which can only mean the place is prone to violence and murder? A very strange comparison to make.
The only thing i think of if i see horses in an estate, is that its quite possible they belong to a traveller family, but i dont automatically assume that the place is a hotbed of crime for that reason only. :eek:


Like ive already said, this feud could have taken place anywhere in town, and i dont believe the picture thats being painted of Arden View in the media is fair or accurate in this instance.

Firstly, travellers are not a race of their own. They might like to think of themselves that way, but they aren't

Secondly it does take a certain type of person to keep a horse tied up in an estate, and ignoring the other crimes associated with such people the fact that they treat these animals that way should be a crime in itself.

Finally. You might like to think that because some decent people live in Arden View that it doesn't deserve the reputation that it has, and you couldn't be more wrong. There are several people over more than one generation that have earned the estate that reputation over several years. Just because there are some good people who live there it doesn't undo the problems in the estate caused by the others. The bad reputations and problems with this estate are not recent and caused by bad press clippings in the Independent but instead have been caused by several incidents happening over a sustained period of time.

Why the murder happened in Arden View is something I don't understand and many of us might never know the reasons surrounding why it happened where it happened but the fact is that if you asked anyone that knows Tullamore where a murder like that would happen then I'd wager that 8 out of 10 would say Arden View. The events leading to the location of the death might be coincidental but the fact that its a shock to no one that it happened there isn't.

Please don't reply to this stating how you know several nice and decent people in Arden View because I believe you. I'm sure these people are there, but what I don't believe is that you somehow managed to know these people but somehow managed to be oblivious to the rot thats going on around them.

Dusty87

Unless Quazzie is non-white, non-irish i dont think its a case of racism:P

EDIT: Quazzie, you write what i think

Cherrycola

So to sum up, what you have stated is that it is no surprise that a traveller was stabbed in Arden View because the place is a hotbed of crime and you only have to look at the kind of people who live there to see that, ie people who keep horses.
This is a stereotypical view of a group of people, whether or not you consider them to be an ethnic minority.

Again i'll repeat, linking this murder to Arden View, and as a result throwing the estate into the limelight for all the wrong reasons is not warranted in this case.

And i think you'd lose that wager if you carried out that survey, cos im pretty sure the majority of people would have had a hard time choosing between two or three other estates in town.

No one is denying the "rot" that takes place there, but im also living in Tullamore long enough to see the changes that have taken place with that estate, how the majority of families are grown up, have bought their former council houses, have pride in their homes and community, and how the estate has nowhere near the reputation that other estates in town now have.
What you are doing is tarring an estate and the residents that live there based on your opinions of a few trouble making families who lived there/are living there.......none of whom seem to be involved in this recent altercation.....didnt someone here say already that the dead mans family were lovely people and never in trouble?? And the other group were from Galway??

And the point being argued here is the unfairness of linking the estate to this murder because of logistics and nothing else!

So dont reply to this telling me about all the scumbags you know who live there and cause trouble, cos i know all about them, but dont tell me the decent people dont outnumber the scumbags.
And unless you can categorically state that those involved in this weeks tragedy lived there, and were notorious trouble makers within the estate, then drawing comparisons between this incident and all the past troubles in Arden View is irrelevant.

Quazzie

Cherrycola wrote: »

So to sum up, what you have stated is that it is no surprise that a traveller was stabbed in Arden View because the place is a hotbed of crime and you only have to look at the kind of people who live there to see that, ie people who keep horses.
This is a stereotypical view of a group of people, whether or not you consider them to be an ethnic minority.

Stereotypical. Maybe. True. Yes.

Cherrycola wrote: »

Again i'll repeat, linking this murder to Arden View, and as a result throwing the estate into the limelight for all the wrong reasons is not warranted in this case.

The incident happened in the estate, and it was thrown into the limelight because of that. Of course the media are going to report on it, and thus on its reputation. I think you are mistakenly thinking that people are saying this happened "because it was Arden View" rather than "it happened in Arden View and its the most recent of a long list of crimes", Both them sentences are different and I think its only you that took it up as the former.

Cherrycola wrote: »

And i think you'd lose that wager if you carried out that survey, cos im pretty sure the majority of people would have had a hard time choosing between two or three other estates in town.

I think you're just being picky with that statement. Arden View has the most sustained bad reputation amongst all estates in Tullamore.

Cherrycola wrote: »

No one is denying the "rot" that takes place there, but im also living in Tullamore long enough to see the changes that have taken place with that estate, how the majority of families are grown up, have bought their former council houses, have pride in their homes and community, and how the estate has nowhere near the reputation that other estates in town now have.
What you are doing is tarring an estate and the residents that live there based on your opinions of a few trouble making families who lived there/are living there.......none of whom seem to be involved in this recent altercation.....didnt someone here say already that the dead mans family were lovely people and never in trouble?? And the other group were from Galway??

And the point being argued here is the unfairness of linking the estate to this murder because of logistics and nothing else!

To suggest that its just logistics is a tad ingenuous. Of the whole of Tullamore where it could have happened the fact that it happened in Arden could yet prove to have some significance. Again reference my previous statement where I say that I don't think anyone was suggesting it happened here because it was Arden View but rather that people would consider Arden View to be more likely of places for this to happen. Again I'll point out that there is a difference

Cherrycola wrote: »

So dont reply to this telling me about all the scumbags you know who live there and cause trouble, cos i know all about them, but dont tell me the decent people dont outnumber the scumbags.
And unless you can categorically state that those involved in this weeks tragedy lived there, and were notorious trouble makers within the estate, then drawing comparisons between this incident and all the past troubles in Arden View is irrelevant.

When something happens in an area with the reputation Arden View has accumulated then comparisons are always going to happen. You can't expect people to ignore the history of the area just because it was just 'logistics' that the crime happened here. Whole towns in Northern Ireland have been suffering the same comparisons for decades.

I honestly think you are taken up the majority of us wrong, and while I don't speak for everyone on here I would suggest that maybe you should read through the thread with an open mind and try see it the way I've stated in this post. You might just see that you are misunderstanding what we are trying to say.

PatrickStar444

Dont understand where people get there ideas, and opinions abut arden view.. iv lived there all my life. have a phd and good job..like many ppl here..when ppl refer to 90% of the ppl being decent..it is more like 99.999%, as its only 1 family, in 1 house who ever causes problems, and seeing as guards are afraid of them, imagine how the ppl of the estate feel..far worse places in town and always has been, arden only has a bad name, due to the 1 family name and adress appearing in the papers every second week..nobody has ever been mugged, stabbed, rapped or robbed for walking through.most of the crimes committed in arden view, which is not many, are committed by ppl who do not live there....also just to set ppl straight, the recent stabbing had noting to do with horses or anything, and happened due to a minor argument between two traveler family's ( neither from arden view ) who just happened to bump into each other at that location.... and there are no horses running around in arden

Cherrycola

No, i dont need to read through it again with an open mind, (patronising much??:rolleyes: )if anything you should take your own advice, as you come across as having an extremely closed mind to anything other than your open opinion.
I havent misunderstood anything, as you have clearly stated that you think of the estate and the people living there.

I just have a differing opinion to you about tarring everyone with the same brush, and you dont seem willing to accept that and seem intent on highlighting the 10% of scum living in Arden View as the majority, thats what im taking issue with.


Im not going to go around in circles with you on this and repeat the same points over and over again, i dont know what your beef is with arden view, or those that live there, but i imagine its a personal bias you have against the place, as to state that it has the most sustained bad reputation of every estate in town is complete rubbish! Unless you have official facts and figures to back it up. Names and reports in the Tribune dont count, unless you are also making note of every other report from every other estate in town.

To be honest, most reports ive read in the tribune over the last few years have names that i cant pronounce let alone spell, and their addresses are not Arden View.

Cherrycola

PatrickStar444 wrote: »

Dont understand where people get there ideas, and opinions abut arden view.. iv lived there all my life. have a phd and good job..like many ppl here..when ppl refer to 90% of the ppl being decent..it is more like 99.999%, as its only 1 family, in 1 house who ever causes problems, and seeing as guards are afraid of them, imagine how the ppl of the estate feel..far worse places in town and always has been, arden only has a bad name, due to the 1 family name and adress appearing in the papers every second week..nobody has ever been mugged, stabbed, rapped or robbed for walking through.most of the crimes committed in arden view, which is not many, are committed by ppl who do not live there....also just to set ppl straight, the recent stabbing had noting to do with horses or anything, and happened due to a minor argument between two traveler family's ( neither from arden view ) who just happened to bump into each other at that location.... and there are no horses running around in arden

Well said, and nice to have input from someone who lives there, cos apparently my 20 odd years of experience of the place are not enough to warrant me having an educated opinion on the estate.

Quazzie

Cherrycola wrote: »

I just have a differing opinion to you about tarring everyone with the same brush, and you dont seem willing to accept that and seem intent on highlighting the 10% of scum living in Arden View as the majority, thats what im taking issue with.

Thats actually my point. Nowhere at any point in this thread did anyone apart from you state that they are in the majority. You just chose to read it that way.

As for your point about the sustained reputation. Arden view had this reputation before some of the other estates even existed.

I have no bias against the area, but the reputation obtained by Arden view residents goes beyond the town boundaries.

ILA

Quazzie wrote: »

I have no bias against the area, but the reputation obtained by Arden view residents goes beyond the town boundaries.

Eh. Shouldn't that read:

I have no bias against the area, but the reputation obtained by some Arden view residents goes beyond the town boundaries.

Cherrycola

Quazzie wrote: »

Thats actually my point. Nowhere at any point in this thread did anyone apart from you state that they are in the majority. You just chose to read it that way.

As for your point about the sustained reputation. Arden view had this reputation before some of the other estates even existed.

I have no bias against the area, but the reputation obtained by Arden view residents goes beyond the town boundaries.

This statement would suggest you are referring to the majority.

I think you'll find a few more references if you have a read back through what you've written and inferred throughout the course of the thread.

Quazzie

ILA wrote: »

Eh. Shouldn't that read:

I have no bias against the area, but the reputation obtained by some Arden view residents goes beyond the town boundaries.

Apologies, you are of course correct. I didn't include the word some whereas I probably should have but my point was that its these residents that obtained the reputation and not a fabrication of the press.

If its a mistake like this that caused all this confusion then I apologize, but it seems others picked up on the meaning in which it was intended.

Cherrycola

ILA wrote: »

Eh. Shouldn't that read:

I have no bias against the area, but the reputation obtained by some Arden view residents goes beyond the town boundaries.

Snap.

DM_7

Quazzie wrote: »

I've lived in an estate all my life, and not once have I looked out my window and seen horses grazing.

Join the dots.

I'm living on the estate now. But i'm not from Tullamore and heard about "The Zoo" long before ever getting to tuallmore. The reputation is an old one and in the main undeserved.

And there are/were horses in the estate this summer.

During the summer there was a horse grazing for a while on one of the greens. On Sunday two horses were running through the estate and even stopped outside the house to feed.

Anyhow.
From what I'm told the horses relating to this are in a field behind Arden View rather than in the estate. The row wasn't about the horses but they were a factor.

PaulieG

Cherrycola wrote: »

The fact still stands, neither party was from Arden View.

Derek McDonagh was from Arden View. He spent all his life there. He only recently left and moved to Callary Street.

Kent Brockman

Just read this whole thread and am a bit confused (also hearing different stories around town)

Was this guy
a)a quiet innocent bystander, who never caused any trouble or his family never caused trouble etc, who just happened to be visiting in the wrong place at the wrong time. (if so how did he get involved?)

or
b) Was he part of an armed mob that attacked a vehicle?

or
Some other scenario?

If he is a quiet guy from a quiet family etc then why are the police out in force and who are they expecting trouble from

As per the Arden View Issue:
I lived in Tullamore from the early 80's to the early 90's and during that time Arden View was known as 'knackers' Arden and the halting site was known as Knackeragua. I didnt make these up, they existed before I moved to town.

I witnessed a running riot at a Hospital fete one year between a mob from each side mentioned above. At the time it was generally viewed as 'the knackers are killing each other', even though the arden view side was calling the travellers 'knackers'.

I was personally beaten up on 2 separate occasions (unprovoked) by people I knew to be from Arden View and many of my friends and schoolmates were assaulted on different occassions and with different severity by people who we knew to be from arden view.
This may have been a minority but I can off the top of my head (15yrs later) name 9 or 10 surnames which were involved in most of this and there was always more than 1 or 2 in the family and often alot more.

I played in a town league in Arden View many yrs ago.The team from the area would headbutt us when challenging from a corner and even punch us in the face off the ball, it was a great laugh for them. At one point the ref (a local) beat up one of our team for questioning a decision.We were referred to as the 'snobs' probably because we were not tough.
There was often fights on the sidelines and a real sinister air about the place.

That was my experience of the place and it was many years ago. Yes I knew some decent people from the area (who were also quite tough btw) but by and large most of the thugs in town at the time came from Arden view.
I hope it has changed and become a better safer place but for anyone from my era growing up in Tullamore this will come as no surprise.

Lets hope this is the end of it.

LizT

Kent Brockman wrote: »

If he is a quiet guy from a quiet family etc then why are the police out in force and who are they expecting trouble from

I'd guess that his extended family may want to retaliate. If some of the reports are anything to go by, there was almost another murder at the hospital.

Maybe it's just speculation...

DM_7

From what I have read I am a bit confused too but it looks like he was part of the group that went for the pick up.

Can anyone add detail or correct me if i'm wrong?

LizT

DM-ICE wrote: »

From what I have read I am a bit confused too but it looks like he was part of the group that went for the pick up.

Can anyone add detail or correct me if i'm wrong?

Yeah, I'd like to hear some clarification of this too. The reports have been quite confusing and vague.

PaulieG

Well according to the Irish Times (and this part of the story doesn't seem to be in dispute) the deceased man was part of a group who attacked three men in a pick-up truck as they drove through Arden View having just checked on horses grazing down the back of the estate.

Storminateacup

PaulieG wrote: »

Derek McDonagh was from Arden View. He spent all his life there. He only recently left and moved to Callary Street.

No he wasn't.
They grew up on the offical halting site.
Then his parents and children moved to that new housing estate across from the halting estate, behind O'Molloy street, then to Arden View.