Solution to Cramp

ashleey

Got dreadful thigh cramps in the Skyride in clare in August and then again in the Danesfort motorway 90k. This time on the Leinster Loop (120k), I avoided the specific energy gels, bars and powders (Zipvit- yukk)

I mixed 2 Diaorolytes (dissolvable salts, used mainly when your kids are sick) into my 750ml water bottle, ate bananas at the start and ate breakfast bars (Kelloggs Nutri Grains, but I'm sure the brand is irrelevant) on the ride for energy.

It really worked for me as I did my best average speed for a 100k (3hr 58mins for 120k) or over sportive, despite a fall and atrocious weather.

HTH

billy.fish

TBH its not known what causes cramps, one of two areas that we as physiologists kinda shy away from when it comes up.

Main points i'd ask:
How hydrated were you going into the event? Were you pee'ing clear?
How much did you drink during the event? Did you need to pee?
How heavy a sweater are you?

Personally, i'd say the d'lyte is great for getting everything back in, but think the osmoality of it will be to high for absorbtion during exercise so it wont work. But i'd have nowt to back it up without doing some reading.

Have a look at your nutrition in the days leading up to the event, its more important than on the day in a 90km ride.

cipo

I knew you d be on top of this one greg!!!

Dave

ashleey

billy.fish wrote: »

TBH its not known what causes cramps, one of two areas that we as physiologists kinda shy away from when it comes up.

Main points i'd ask:
How hydrated were you going into the event? Were you pee'ing clear?
How much did you drink during the event? Did you need to pee?
How heavy a sweater are you?

Personally, i'd say the d'lyte is great for getting everything back in, but think the osmoality of it will be to high for absorbtion during exercise so it wont work. But i'd have nowt to back it up without doing some reading.

Have a look at your nutrition in the days leading up to the event, its more important than on the day in a 90km ride.

Thanks for the expert advice. Hydration isn't normally a problem, but I'm new to the power bar/gel/powder stuff and will stay away from it from now on. (it probably takes years of acclimatization)

billy.fish

ashleey wrote: »

Thanks for the expert advice. Hydration isn't normally a problem, but I'm new to the power bar/gel/powder stuff and will stay away from it from now on. (it probably takes years of acclimatization)

Takes very little if any acclimation. That's the whole point to them. Once you are doing shorter events you don't even need them TBH.

You'd be surprised on the hydration, most people don't realise that they spend most of their time dehydrated.

Lumen

ashleey wrote: »

Thanks for the expert advice. Hydration isn't normally a problem, but I'm new to the power bar/gel/powder stuff and will stay away from it from now on. (it probably takes years of acclimatization)

If you're suggesting that "power bar/gel/powder stuff" causes cramp, that seems a bit of a leap.

You might just be getting fitter or there might be other factors - you're altering several variables at once.

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

If you're suggesting that "power bar/gel/powder stuff" causes cramp, that seems a bit of a leap.

Semi logical one mind, there is a big school of thought at the moment that increasing the availability of exogenous carbohydrate my lead to shut downs in the metabolic pathways that lead to uptake of fluid from the gut.*

But its one of many.

That's where science is funny, one must make leaps in order to find answers.

Admittedly sometimes they are wrong....but sometimes you have a Dr.Noakes moment and it all works.

*to much carbohydrate in stomach is a bad thing, makes it go in slower, same for water, on a cellular level

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

too much carbohydrate in stomach is a bad thing, makes it go in slower, same for water, on a cellular level

Right, questions for you Dr Bunsen...

How do I find out the highest rate at which I can digest carbs? Do I need an endoscope? What happens if I eat more than that - where do they go? Does digestion rate differ on and off the bike (assuming on the bike is sub-threshold effort)?

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

Right, questions for you Dr Bunsen...

I'm more like Beaker, MEEP!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A&feature=related

Lumen wrote: »

How do I find out the highest rate at which I can digest carbs? Do I need an endoscope?

Way we'd do it in a lab. VO2max test to exhaustion using 5mins stages in 35-50W step increase in intensity (depending on your ability). Constant gas collection (O2 and CO2; inspired and expired). Average the last 3 mins of each stage (allows you to assume steady state has been attained) and then run some nice little math which allows us to figure out CHO, Fat, and protein breakdown at each intensity (wattage, hr, cadence, etc) or whatever you want to use as your stage defining variable.

Then if you are say targeting a oohh i dunno 2,100km bike race you'd look at the average PO that the rider could repeatedly sustain for a 20mins bout of cycling, then get them to do a steady state effort at that level while collecting gas, do same math, and you can say exactly what they will break down at that intensity.

Then if you wanted to look at say an IM level athlete (Tunney) you'd pull them in and do it for longer stages at up to and about 1mmol rise in blood lactate above baseline, or an IF of between 0.63 and 0.73 depending on the athletes ability, sex, time goals.

So all in all, its techy and no you cant do it at home.

Lumen wrote: »

What happens if I eat more than that - where do they go?

It just sits in your gut doing nowt but taking up space (or comes back up). Then when you add more you make the situation worse. Wonderful thing about the stomach is that it has limited uptake rates for CHO, fat and protien that CANNOT be trained. However you can bypass them and open up some other channels for them to pass into the bloodstream...at least that's the new thinking....and where we are looking at getting people from <9:30hrs for IM to <9hrs.

Lumen wrote: »

Does digestion rate differ on and off the bike (assuming on the bike is sub-threshold effort)?

yes, its mediated by a HUGE amount of factors from temperature, time of day, food type, substrate absorption rates, exercise intensity, fluid balance, fluid temperature, consistency. Its a massive puzzle wrapped in a conundrum, placed into a shark filled pit and then set on fire by a rabid 3 year old koala with a grudge against cyclists.

ashleey

I think I'm in a different league to Mr. Lumen mind you.

I never bothered with sports foods before and used to play football competitively twice a week in London and train 3 times a week, plus swim and gym and running. Cycling is a whole new area though, from max. 2 hours of activity to 4 minimum. It is a completely different type of exercise with different nutrition requirements. I should have taken it up in my twenties not when I hit forty.

Thanks again for the advice.

neris

I find that lot of stretching and fluid helps and even if you get off for food etc doing stretches help. I got back stomach cramps yesterday after the food stop. 2nd sportive its happened to me on so think sticking what your used to is the best for the body

billy.fish

ashleey wrote: »

I think I'm in a different league to Mr. Lumen mind you.

I never bothered with sports foods before and used to play football competitively twice a week in London and train 3 times a week, plus swim and gym and running. Cycling is a whole new area though, from max. 2 hours of activity to 4 minimum. It is a completely different type of exercise with different nutrition requirements. I should have taken it up in my twenties not when I hit forty.

Thanks again for the advice.

Never to late to take up cycling. All about getting some steady saddle time at first, then going from there. Duration first, then worry about intensity later.

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

However you can bypass them and open up some other channels for them to pass into the bloodstream...at least that's the new thinking....and where we are looking at getting people from <9:30hrs for IM to <9hrs.

Snorting glucose off the aerobars?

Thanks for the other info.

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

Snorting glucose off the aerobars?

Thanks for the other info.

Nah something way more boring like regulated ion channels.

That and EPO of course.... but i digress

Peterx

OP, you have it in one.
Most of the gels do not have any electrolyte which is why they don't stop cramping.
Dioralyte sachets or NUUN tablets in your liquid will greatly reduce the chance of cramping and a banana a day is the other good one.
Some folk drink a lot of plain water before a big event which can leach the minerals out of your system so putting a NUUN/dioralyte in your water the day before a long event can be good too.
NUUN tablets are expensive but work very well. I usually carry a few dioralyte sachets and take them straight if I've no liquid left.

This is just what works for me - I'm sure others have different approaches.

ryan_sherlock

My experience (no research to back it up - just what I have noted) is that cramping comes mostly from hitting your body with a load that it is not used to.

Now, if it is very long or very hot (I have not seen a 'hot' day in Ireland in a long while) cramping may be hydration/electrolyte specific but from what I can see is that it usually occurs when people are pushing themselves harder than they are used to.

I have not cramped in a couple of years, but when I did, it was at the start of the race season in the first couple of races. They were usually the first super hard efforts of the year (back then, I could only push so hard in training) - after that, I was fine for the rest of the year. Now - I always make sure to do enough super high intensity intervals before the race season to prevent this (among other things)

Do you cramp in long training rides too or just the Sportifs? Do you think you push yourself harder in Sportifs? The days when you do cramp - where you by yourself or with others (extra motivation to push hard)?

ryan_sherlock

Peterx wrote: »

OP, you have it in one.
Most of the gels do not have any electrolyte which is why they don't stop cramping.

Another good point - we used to use TorQ gels in racing (and the drink) which both contain electrolytes - I found that for a day or two after races, I would be retaining around 1.5kg of water and feeling a bit bloaty. I was in electrolyte overload mode!

The ZipVit gels do not have the electrolytes but their energy drink does - I'm getting more than enough from that and am feeling better for it - especially on multi day events.

The other thing to watch for is drinking lots on the morning of a race (and then peeing it all back out) - same reasons as Peter mentioned.

billy.fish

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

My experience (no research to back it up - just what I have noted) is that cramping comes mostly from hitting your body with a load that it is not used to.

Nail. Head. Hammer.

Its a negative response to a stimulus. I don't buy into the hydration kinetics camp for most Irish races/events. But... some people work so in-efficiently (no offence OP, just a general statement) that their levels of heat dissipation drive the sweat reflex so high that you have to take it into account somewhat. Talking mechanical efficiency <20% here.

However...in trained subjects (ie, you Ryan) i don't think its the case. Its more of a fuelling issue to the working muscle.

Or at least that's my view.

ashleey

Thanks again. Good discussion. I thought I was fit but cycling is a whole different ball game.

It depends who you are but it's no coincidence that I heard a lot of retching on the skyride seeing as at the food stops it was only energy bars. I reckon they work for the top 10%. I always tend to be outside the top 10% but inside the top 20% and don't have the metabolism of the maniacs

ryan_sherlock

ashleey wrote: »

It depends who you are but it's no coincidence that I heard a lot of retching on the skyride seeing as at the food stops it was only energy bars. I reckon they work for the top 10%. I always tend to be outside the top 10% but inside the top 20% and don't have the metabolism of the maniacs

I think it is more to do with eating what you are used to rather than being in some 10/20% brackets...

For example, I don't usually train with gels (unless doing super hard training) but for about 3 weeks before race season I would start using gels for 1 or 2 sessions per week to get the stomach and body used to it. I wouldn't use products that I'm not used to in an event that pushes my body to the limits.

If you eat nutrigrain bars (I do too!) in training, it is no surprise that they work well for you in racing...

Lumen

ashleey wrote: »

Thanks again. Good discussion. I thought I was fit but cycling is a whole different ball game.

FWIW I have never once suffered from cramp, even when first starting out as a 20kph cyclist, but I know people much stronger than me (i.e. 35 kph cyclists) who suffer from time to time.

So I wouldn't feel that you're a crap cyclist if you get cramp. As others have said it's more likely related to other factors.

spokeydokey

I'd look into the stretching first. Are you doing it correctly and how often?
Hydration too of course. It's not a problem that can be solved on the morning of an event though.

Zipfit, Power bar, NUUN , Dioralyte, TorQ and Nutrigrain...:(
It's highly unlikely to be a problem that you need to spend your way out of.
Just stretch more and drink water more often.

ryan_sherlock

spokeydokey wrote: »

Just stretch more and drink water more often.

I very very rarely stretch as part of a warmup (afterwards sometimes, but usually stretch a little unrelated to when I train).

Lots of evidence out there that stretching (static type, lean over, touch your toes - the thing 99% if people do when you ask them to stretch) is either useless or detremental. A good warmup - starting easy, getting the blood flowing and HR up is much more important.

"Most past research has been on static stretching; stretching to the furthest point in the range of motion around a particular join, then holding the stretch for a period of time (usually 30 seconds). This type of stretching, especially when performed before exercise, has been shown to increase risk of injury, while decreasing strength, agility, and power. Dynamic stretching, on the other hand, is receiving attention in more recent research, and the findings have been overwhelmingly positive. Dynamic stretching is akin to a ‘warm-up’ wherein one takes the body through the same motions as will be employed during their activity of choice, but usually in a wider range of motion"

From here: http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/2010/08/stretching-for-the-endurance-athlete.html

spokeydokey

Ok 'dynamic stretching'
Good.
That research just says to me that stretching cold is a bad idea . We know that.
I think you Ryan are on the bike far more frequently than the OP and so may experience different sensations . It's a lifestyle thing.

ThisRegard

spokeydokey wrote: »

Zipfit, Power bar, NUUN , Dioralyte, TorQ and Nutrigrain...:(
It's highly unlikely to be a problem that you need to spend your way out of.
Just stretch more and drink water more often.

Would disagree with this, Peterx has it spot on for
alot of people. Alot of AR competitors swear by nuuns and dioralyte, myself included. Earlier in the summer got a bad case of cramp in my calves even though I was well hydrated with both water and a sport drink with carbs and electrolytes. I switched to nuuns, drink it a few days before hand and if there's even a twinge of cramp a dioralyte seems to work wonders. If only water and stretching did prevent it.

ashleey

Again, great discussion. I averaged 30 kph on Sunday over 120k which was better than the skyride (28kph over 132k) and the danesfort motorway (31kph over 90k). I've definitely made improvements. The regulated start on Sunday to athy for about 25k would be akin to a dynamic warm up. Given the posts above that would seem like the active cure for cramp by stopping people tearing off. Thanks for all the input

spokeydokey

I have used dioralyte before during stage races. I believe it works.:)

Not stretching correctly and dehydration are the primary factors for cramping in my experience. That's why I'd recommend it first.
What is AR by the way?

Thanks

Shadow78

Check you nutrition to make sure your getting your balance right. Do a google on magnesium and cramps and you will find that a lack of magnesium in your diet can cause cramps when excercising. Might be worth going along to see a nutritionist to see if your diet is the problem.

ThisRegard

Sorry, adventure racing, ranging from 2 to 5 hour races which are very popular these days to ones over several days.

Isn't the scientific community still pretty much undecided on the exact cause or causes ?

billy.fish

ThisRegard wrote: »

...Isn't the scientific community still pretty much undecided on the exact cause or causes ?

Pretty much the first point i made....

Same with stretching. Even more so now that a body of work is coming out showing the benefits of not stretching a camp which i have always lived in.

Beneficial for recovery from injuries caused by muscle imbalances, cause by poor positioning, and poor conditioning.

Stretching has no benefit (or negative side effect) that i am aware of for cramping. The effect of stretching a cramping muscle during its contraction phase is different to actually getting a positive prohibitive effect from stretching.

billy.fish

Shadow78 wrote: »

Check you nutrition to make sure your getting your balance right. Do a google on magnesium and cramps and you will find that a lack of magnesium in your diet can cause cramps when excercising. Might be worth going along to see a nutritionist to see if your diet is the problem.

Do a Google for anything and cramps and you'll find an answer. There is not a full understanding of the mechanisms involved. Sorry, no one element is responsible.

Shadow78

Sorry, no one element is responsible.

Never said it was. Just said that it could be magnesium. It tends to be one of the harder elements to get right in the diet. Main sources are green leafy veg like spinich and cabbage and certain seeds. If you lack calcium you will cramp, if you lack potassium you will cramp, if you lack magnesium you will cramp. If you take too much water you will flush minerals out and will then cramp.... etc.

If you look at the active ingrediants for the likes on NUUN you will see
Sodium (carbonates) 360.0
Potassium (bicarbonate) 100.0
Calcium (carbonate) 12.5
Magnesium (sulfate) 25.0
Vitamin C 37.5
Vitamin B2

so if you find the likes of nuun stopping cramps then its probably down to the fact its giving you something your not getting in your diet.