How Bout Dem Bears?

padraig_f

Still think Cutler should start against the Browns, just if he’s showing any physical limitations, like last time he came back, they need to pull him quicker.

Don't think rust should be a real problem, he played the pre-season and 6 or 7 games. If he's physically moving well, I think he should be ok.

Realt Dearg Sec

Well, game day...Briggs still out is a worry, I don't really think it matters that McGahee is out, we are always going to make RBs look good. BUT...

As I said, I think Cutler has to be our guy. We are going to need to score a lot. One stat (and there aren't many beyond the win-loss ratio but I think this is relevant to that) in which he is better than McCown is in long passes completed. He is better at creating scoring plays, and I'm going to take a risk and say I think he'll do plenty of it today (and we're going to need it). I wouldn't be surprised if he throws an INT or two, but I think he'll do what he needs to as well.

(He better. He's playing for his career.)

The Browns are by no means terrible and this will be tough but I think we can do it.

SantryRed

Didn't take long

Realt Dearg Sec

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I think he'll do plenty of it today (and we're going to need it). I wouldn't be surprised if he throws an INT or two, but I think he'll do what he needs to as well.

Ahem...

Oat23

Shook off the rust and had a good game. Happy for him.

Said to a few people he would have 3TDs and 300 yards, was almost on the money.

Now to watch the Pack vs the Cowgirls (on mute obviously). If they lose, we might not have to face Rodgers week 17.

Alshon again...

padraig_f

Rollercoaster game, but good road win. That's part of the reason you play Cutler, should be improved for the next game. If you cut out those ints, that was 440 yards against a good Cleveland defense. Running game was really good as well today.

Also signs of improvement on the defensive side, held them to less than 100 yards rushing and got a couple of takeaways, hopefully get Briggs back next week.

The offense is not far from being awesome and I'm starting to believe we could make some noise in the playoffs if we got there.

Hopefully the Ravens can help us out tomorrow night.

kennyb3

Cutting out the interceptions though is the problem - and no way did he need to throw (basically) a hail mary (there was a CB & safety) with 11mins to go in the 4th Quarter, he got away with that one in my eyes - thank god for Alshon. I'd much rather have seen him be patient and lead us down the field. He's lucky not to have 3 interceptions imho after Josh only throwing 1 in 8 games. I really think he needs to look at ball security and patience. These turnovers are often 6/10/14 point swings - the one on the first drive was 6 anyway.

I don't want to be crabbing the guy, but you just know it's going to cost us when it matters be it this season or next.

That GB come back was a bit sickening, we really needed them out of the picture!

aaronm13

kennyb3 wrote: »

Cutting out the interceptions though is the problem - and no way did he need to throw (basically) a hail mary (there was a CB & safety) with 11mins to go in the 4th Quarter, he got away with that one in my eyes - thank god for Alshon. I'd much rather have seen him be patient and lead us down the field. He's lucky not to have 3 interceptions imho after Josh only throwing 1 in 8 games. I really think he needs to look at ball security and patience. These turnovers are often 6/10/14 point swings - the one on the first drive was 6 anyway.

I don't want to be crabbing the guy, but you just know it's going to cost us when it matters be it this season or next.

That GB come back was a bit sickening, we really needed them out of the picture!

I agree. It's his first game back but he really got out of jail on that one. His interception stat freaks the hell out of me. Pity the packers are still in the mix but hopefully the Ravens can do us a massive favor tonight.

Realt Dearg Sec

aaronm13 wrote: »

I agree. It's his first game back but he really got out of jail on that one. His interception stat freaks the hell out of me. Pity the packers are still in the mix but hopefully the Ravens can do us a massive favor tonight.

Not sure why Cutler's interception stat freaks the hell out of you. It's 3.4 percent. That is identical to McCown's.

Meantime Cutler's TD stat is 4.7 to McCown's 3.8. It seems a little unfair that Cutler is judged on his career stats and McCown is judged on his stats in a few games against mostly poor defenses. If we look at McCown's career interception rate, this year has really padded it. I like McCown, and everyone always likes a good backup, and Cutler is kind of a pr1ck. But McCown's play has game manager written all over it.

That throw to Jeffery is a case in point. Some people seem to think it was blind luck, but I just cannot see where that comes from. It was a beautiful throw. If McCown threw it, I doubt anything would be said. I mean the other week he basically threw the ball away but Jeffery was in the corner of the endzone and decided he'd just take the TD anyway. McCown got the credit for what was not, looking at the video, intended as a pass to begin with. Not to mention that he got out of jail a couple of times throwing INTs that were flagged as penalties. If Cutler had gotten away with that in similar circumstances everyone would be on his back about it, but nobody, from what I can see, has even mentioned that McCown got away with murder a couple of times last week.

My point is not to knock McCown, it's just that I think, on balance, we will score more points with Cutler. I am on board with anyone who thinks that Cutler's expectations of 20 million guaranteed or whatever he's looking for is completely insane and that at that price we would do well to let him go. But Trestman was brought in to make use of Cutler's incredible arm, not to plod along with an ageing career back up.

kennyb3

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Not sure why Cutler's interception stat freaks the hell out of you. It's 3.4 percent. That is identical to McCown's.

Meantime Cutler's TD stat is 4.7 to McCown's 3.8. It seems a little unfair that Cutler is judged on his career stats and McCown is judged on his stats in a few games against mostly poor defenses. If we look at McCown's career interception rate, this year has really padded it. I like McCown, and everyone always likes a good backup, and Cutler is kind of a pr1ck. But McCown's play has game manager written all over it.

I wouldn't be solely comparing Cutler to Josh - not when their salaries are vastly different. Look at someone like Alex Smith who is on $9m and we want to give Cutler - $12m+ per year maybe even $15m.

I'll have to look at him against Romo and Stafford when I get more time.

I agree Cutlers Int ratio freaks me out, with this offense give me a game manager please!

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

That throw to Jeffery is a case in point. Some people seem to think it was blind luck, but I just cannot see where that comes from. It was a beautiful throw.

Look at the trajectory again, look at the two DB's - its a hail mary!

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

If McCown threw it, I doubt anything would be said. I mean the other week he basically threw the ball away but Jeffery was in the corner of the endzone and decided he'd just take the TD anyway. McCown got the credit for what was not, looking at the video, intended as a pass to begin with. Not to mention that he got out of jail a couple of times throwing INTs that were flagged as penalties. If Cutler had gotten away with that in similar circumstances everyone would be on his back about it, but nobody, from what I can see, has even mentioned that McCown got away with murder a couple of times last week.

My point is not to knock McCown, it's just that I think, on balance, we will score more points with Cutler. I am on board with anyone who thinks that Cutler's expectations of 20 million guaranteed or whatever he's looking for is completely insane and that at that price we would do well to let him go. But Trestman was brought in to make use of Cutler's incredible arm, not to plod along with an ageing career back up.

I've no doubt we'll score more TD's with Jay, I've also no doubt he'll throw a lot more interceptions, our defence will spend more time on the field and we'll give up more points.

Also it's about value. We need to build a well rounded team. If we want to keep Bushrod, the two Bennett's (extending BMarsh) and put together decent defence (which needs a complete overhaul) then we need as much cap space as possible. And this D doesn't get fixed via the draft alone.

I want to build a superbowl team not marvel at Jay's arm strength.

Overall point - it's not just about McCown V Cutler.

Also I really don't like paying $12m per year to a QB who regularly misses patches of the season.

Realt Dearg Sec

kennyb3 wrote: »

Also I really don't like paying $12m per year to a QB who regularly misses patches of the season.

This right here is the most persuasive element. Cutty's too injury prone. I know the Titans are meant to be interested in him, and maybe someone else will be too (Cardinals, Texans, who knows?), but if they are willing to pay him that kind of money when he's very likely, in a given year, to be injured for a significant amount of time, then I would leave him to it. I don't really think Cutler is worth a massive cap hit, and Emery seems to be leaning away from the idea of tagging him.

That being said, I suppose we are in slightly different territory discussing the QB for next year as opposed to the one best positioned to get us to the playoffs this year. And that is an argument we could have til we're blue in the face. But for what it's worth, my prediction is that Cutler will throw maybe one or two interceptions in each of the remaining regular season games. But I also predict the offense will have a greater total score.

The D seems to be getting a little better as well, and hopefully we have Briggs back next week. This Packers thing is a set back, especially because Rodgers will now certainly be playing against us. But first things first. If we don't beat the Eagles it will probably only be for pride that we're playing after Christmas.

Anyone staying up for the game tonight? I think I will. I would feel a little dirty supporting the Ravens, but having spent yesterday shouting for the Cowboys, I think I've subdued whatever once passed for a soul in my body.

kennyb3

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

That being said, I suppose we are in slightly different territory discussing the QB for next year as opposed to the one best positioned to get us to the playoffs this year.

You're right, I was probably crossing arguments - debate about the future is probably best left till the end of the season.

Realt Dearg Sec

kennyb3 wrote: »

You're right, I was probably crossing arguments - debate about the future is probably best left till the end of the season.

Well, it's going to come up (actually I started veering into that territory as well). Apparently from the way McCown's deal is structured, the Bears can't hold onto him next year if another team is wiling to offer him decent money. Certainly keeping him and Cutler is unlikely in that scenario, as you could be looking at 20 million in cap space.

What's the deal with Peppers next year? He seems to have a really heavily backloaded contract. He's had some good games this year, but some really awful ones too, we could certainly get much better value in FA. I'm enjoying Ratliff's contributions the last couple of weeks, and Bostic is coming along nicely. I am starting to think that putting in Steltz instead of Conte might be a good idea, Conte brings very little to the table. Am I also right in saying we can't get Tillman back before the post-season? It's a shame, I think if we had all our guys back we could have a decent enough D. If we're scoring 30-plus points in games then we have a serious shout at winning the division (and, believe it or not, a 3 seed). Not that Briggs is a magic bullet, but that RB yesterday had never played a snap in the NFL before, and by the 3rd quarter he was pointing his thumbs at the name on his shirt. We can make a superstar of anyone, it seems, right now.

kennyb3

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What's the deal with Peppers next year? He seems to have a really heavily backloaded contract. He's had some good games this year, but some really awful ones too, we could certainly get much better value in FA.

From what I understand he's due over $18m, and cutting him will cost about $6-8m (i've seen various numbers) in dead money. Imho he'll be gone.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'm enjoying Ratliff's contributions the last couple of weeks, and Bostic is coming along nicely.

Ratliff stepped up for a sack when badly needed last night, which was good to see. Cohen is absolutely s'hite so good that we have someone who is at least serviceable.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I am starting to think that putting in Steltz instead of Conte might be a good idea, Conte brings very little to the table.

I'd but Steltz in for M Wright for sure. He did pretty well in the run game a few games back.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Am I also right in saying we can't get Tillman back before the post-season? It's a shame, I think if we had all our guys back we could have a decent enough D. If we're scoring 30-plus points in games then we have a serious shout at winning the division (and, believe it or not, a 3 seed). Not that Briggs is a magic bullet, but that RB yesterday had never played a snap in the NFL before, and by the 3rd quarter he was pointing his thumbs at the name on his shirt. We can make a superstar of anyone, it seems, right now.

Yeah Tillman is out for the last 2 games, and not sure what the hold up with Briggs is.

I still don't understand why Izzy wasn't brought back - he had 7.5 sacks last year and wouldn't of cost huge money. He hasn't done much for the Lions this year but has had limited snaps. Phil really left us short in that area with only Melton, Collins & Paea - basically gambled and lost.

The D injuries have been really unfortunate but no Roach, no Urlacher, no Izzy, Tillman/Briggs/Peppers a year older was always going to be tough. I think the signs were there even before Melton, Colins & Williams got injured anyway.

And not to go back over old ground, but McClellin is like a little girl against the run - can't set the edge at all. At times it's like missing a lineman.

I think and hope we'll seriously beef up at DT next year - get at least one fatty in (350lber NT)

kennyb3

Looking ahead to next week - what's the league record for yards by a RB? Shady must have his eyes set on that!

SameOleJay

Decent night's work.

D showed up reasonably well. Lance is scheduled back next week. That should keep Shady under 200 yards. We could well see a shootout next week- Alshon and Marshall could be in for big nights against that secondary.

Peppers is gone in the off-season btw- paying him 18 mill would be comical and you couldn't pay Jay either. There really is no point debating Cutler's contract situation for weeks on end. As long as there's no crazy money thrown by someone desperate he's staying.

Cut Peppers and there's still plenty of room for re-signings and a free agency splash.

SameOleJay

Forte is now 1,200 rushing yards (3rd in the league), still on course for 2k yards from scrimmage and is a key contributor in the success of the pass protection game.

Stud.

D3PO

kennyb3 wrote: »

Looking ahead to next week - what's the league record for yards by a RB? Shady must have his eyes set on that!

296 yards by AP he wont get within an ass's roar of it.

aaronm13

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Not sure why Cutler's interception stat freaks the hell out of you. It's 3.4 percent. That is identical to McCown's

It's not their career stats I was comparing,just this season's. Options on Cutler really do split the fan base.

Realt Dearg Sec

aaronm13 wrote: »

Options on Cutler really do split the fan base.

Yeah, and we're not going to come to any agreement on it either, so probably not much point dragging the discussion on too long. As I say, I think he has the weapons there that we can score 25-30 or more against the two remaining defenses we have to play. Maybe McCown can do it as well. The real question is whether, as fans, we have faith in Tucker and the defense. It's promising that they are getting better in the last few games. And, for at least another 12 hours, we are on top of the division. May as well enjoy it.

I was also impressed, once again, with Forte, the most underrated RB in the league. He got stopped for no gain a number of times but made huge progress on a number of key plays. Also fair play to Bush.

kennyb3

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Also fair play to Bush.

Good to see him get a TD, but really should have went down on the one yard line tbh - game was over then as we could have ran the clock right down and made it a 2 possession game with the FG. Wouldn't have been funny had they recovered the onside kick. Though Conte continues to amaze me in the way he finds new ways to look bad and get beat with Gordon's TD.

Oat23

kennyb3 wrote: »

Cutting out the interceptions though is the problem - and no way did he need to throw (basically) a hail mary (there was a CB & safety) with 11mins to go in the 4th Quarter, he got away with that one in my eyes - thank god for Alshon. I'd much rather have seen him be patient and lead us down the field. He's lucky not to have 3 interceptions imho after Josh only throwing 1 in 8 games.

McCown got incredibly lucky on a few throws (3 times in the Cowboys game alone). His INT stat could easily be 5/6 in 8 games if it wasn't for the defense failing to make a play. Nobody talks about that, but they are happy to criticise Cutler for bad throws he made that were almost INT'd.

Innish_Rebel

Oat23 wrote: »

McCown got incredibly lucky on a few throws (3 times in the Cowboys game alone). His INT stat could easily be 5/6 in 8 games if it wasn't for the defense failing to make a play. Nobody talks about that, but they are happy to criticise Cutler for bad throws he made that were almost INT'd.

Have to say I agree with you there - I had sky+ the Cowboys game so was watching having heard result & various gushings about McCowan. He had a good game but he easily should (not could) have had at least two if not three interceptions that weren't hauled in... But don't get me wrong he played good but let's not just look at TD/Int ratings when considering the QB's.

kennyb3

Oat23 wrote: »

McCown got incredibly lucky on a few throws (3 times in the Cowboys game alone). His INT stat could easily be 5/6 in 8 games if it wasn't for the defense failing to make a play. Nobody talks about that, but they are happy to criticise Cutler for bad throws he made that were almost INT'd.

While I agree I think you're also not comparing like with like.

The facts are he did throw 2 interceptions, and has thrown 10 in 9 games. Josh has thrown only 1 interception in 8 games.

Now as to how many either nearly/could have thrown - that's a separate matter. As you say Josh could be (say) 6 in 8 games but then how many could Cutler have been in 9 games - 13/14/15/16 (or more)? It's subjective obviously.

I didn't like the throw one bit, it's fair to point that out. Great we got a TD, but I just don't think there was a need to do that. I don't get how anyone can think that throw was a good idea.

And I don't think anyone is trying to ignore the deficiencies in McCowns game either.

kennyb3

I just think a lot of Bears fans are a bit blinkered because of the arm strength and it's good to have a proper discussion about it.

For example here is a guy getting obliterated in the press and likely won't have a job next year - notice the stat line - 9 TD's/10 Int. Obviously the Texans aren't doing well as a team and that's part of it along with a few more pick sixes

Here is Matt Ryan nearly the same level of career TD's but over 30 less interceptions and consistently higher QB rating.

Romo

Stafford

Rivers

Flacco

Anyway stats aren't everything I just think the TD/INt ratio's are interesting.

Innish_Rebel

kennyb3 wrote: »

While I agree I think you're also not comparing like with like.

The facts are he did throw 2 interceptions, and has thrown 10 in 9 games. Josh has thrown only 1 interception in 8 games.

Now as to how many either nearly/could have thrown - that's a separate matter. As you say Josh could be (say) 6 in 8 games but then how many could Cutler have been in 9 games - 13/14/15/16 (or more)? It's subjective obviously.

I didn't like the throw one bit, it's fair to point that out. Great we got a TD, but I just don't think there was a need to do that. I don't get how anyone can think that throw was a good idea.

And I don't think anyone is trying to ignore the deficiencies in McCowns game either.

Yes - accept he DID throw those interceptions & I'm in total agreement the Jeffrey TD was a Hail Mary in everything bar the time of the match it took place. But let's look in a balanced way at the alternatives, Cutler on a long term deal (if the price is right) - or draft a QB with someone like McCown as starter for a period, while a valid option we all know that getting the QB draft correct is a fairly tough call...

I honestly have to think along the lines of - in Phil & Mark we trust. The way the offense is set-up I think the O-line & main cast (Marshall, Jeffrey & Forte) makes the job of QB an easier proposition.

One thing I hope Cutler has learned from watching McCown from sideline is that there is another WR on the field other than Marshall, because for the first half I was fearing he had forgotten the fact. The more he uses Jeffrey (& Bennett(s)) the more possibility of 1v1 for Marshall...

Spongey1975

kennyb3 wrote: »

I didn't like the throw one bit, it's fair to point that out. Great we got a TD, but I just don't think there was a need to do that. I don't get how anyone can think that throw was a good idea.

I may be way off the mark but surely that play was called by Trestman. It seemed that that was the primary option for Cutler as i didnt see him look elsewhere. How can you blame a quarterback for a throw when it was called by his head coach?

kennyb3

Spongey1975 wrote: »

I may be way off the mark but surely that play was called by Trestman. It seemed that that was the primary option for Cutler as i didnt see him look elsewhere. How can you blame a quarterback for a throw when it was called by his head coach?

Seriously? Why do quarterbacks go through progressions?

Innish_Rebel

Spongey1975 wrote: »

I may be way off the mark but surely that play was called by Trestman. It seemed that that was the primary option for Cutler as i didnt see him look elsewhere. How can you blame a quarterback for a throw when it was called by his head coach?

Fair point I was wondering the same was it called???

padraig_f

kennyb3 wrote: »

Cutting out the interceptions though is the problem - and no way did he need to throw (basically) a hail mary (there was a CB & safety) with 11mins to go in the 4th Quarter, he got away with that one in my eyes - thank god for Alshon.

Yeah it's a valid criticism, I think he is still forcing downfield throws too much and should be checking down more. Obviously it's a balance, you don't want to be checking down too much, but I don't think he has it right yet. I'm assuming as he gets longer in the offense, with the help of Trestman's coaching, he'll learn to cut those out. But until he does, it's a legitimate question-mark.

The two interceptions were on him. First one was the bad one for me, 1st-and-10 on the Browns 14, and throws to Marshall in double-coverage, didn't need to throw it.

2nd one sailed, it happens, put it down to rust.

The shot to Jeffery for the touchdown, I didn't have a problem with. 3rd-and-11 is a difficult completion anyway, and an interception 50 yards down the field is not such a bad interception, similar to a punt. Good time to take a shot there, even if it wasn't the ideal coverage. You wouldn't like it on 1st down with that coverage, but in the situation I didn't mind taking the shot.