How Bout Dem Bears?

Oat23

I've hated him for years. Him and his stupid sack dance. But as long as he gets to the QB, I'll love him.

@adbrandt: Allen to receive $32M over four years, with $15.5M guaranteed, per @MikeGarafolo. Translation: contract is 2 years, $15.5 million.

Phil Emery/Cliff Stein football gods etc.

Chucky the tree

That's a lot of money for a pass rusher who will be 32 in a week.

Oat23

Chucky the tree wrote: »

That's a lot of money for a pass rusher who will be 32 in a week.

Much, much less than Peppers was going to get. And he is a better player.

Very happy with the deal at this price.

SameOleJay

Chucky the tree wrote: »

That's a lot of money for a pass rusher who will be 32 in a week.

Nah, it really isn’t. It’s 2 years for 15.5 mill. Not a cent after that is guaranteed.

Contrast that with the deals for Ware (same age) and the 34 year old Peppers.

kennyb3

Good addition, hopefully he proves to be good value.

But a strange one - doesn't fit with getting younger and certainly not with rebuilding.

Looks like it's win now mode - so hopefully for that outlay, combined with Cutler's contract and Houston's to add with Bennett's & Bushrods last year - we can at least make a play off game. Anything else will now be a failure.

Better hope he isn't massively on the downgrade or it will still look a very expensive 2 years. Still looks risky compared to Seattle's 1yr/$5m guaranteed.

He should help Houston, Young, Bass & Washington with their techniques - his hand use is just awesome.

padraig_f

Chucky the tree wrote: »

That's a lot of money for a pass rusher who will be 32 in a week.

I thought someone was going to overpay Allen for this reason or give him too long a contract, but the guaranteed money seems reasonable to me, $15.5m/2 years.

He performed well last year, I'm just looking at some of his durability stats...

@SeifertESPN Perhaps unnoticed nationally: Jared Allen never missed game in 6 years for Vikings, playing 93 pct. snaps

@SI_PeterKing Mr. Durable, Jared Allen. Snaps played in Minn: 2013 1083 2012 1081 2011 1044 2010 962 2009 945 2008 980 Best among Min DLs all 6 yrs.

So I think it's ok. If it's overpaying, it's not by much, and definitely improves the d-line.


On the Cutler restructure that facilitated this move, to me it makes sense. Cap is going up $10m this year, and expected to go up another $10m the following year. Makes sense to push a bit of that cap-hit back.

Oat23

SameOleJay wrote: »

Contrast that with the deals for Ware (same age) and the 34 year old Peppers.

2013 sacks:

Peppers - 7
Ware - 6 (13 games)
Allen - 11.5

Hulk Hands

He's been amazing for many seasons, and the 2011 season where the Vikings went 3-13 and he nearly broke the sack record was phenomenal. However he was poor last year, no two ways about it. He had no interest in stopping the run, just simply rushing on the outside continuously to try and get his beloved sack, and leaving a gaping hole for the other team to rush into. His selfishness and desire to get sacks has been a good trait but it really worked to the teams detriment last year. He also looks to have lost some ability. The matchup with Joe Thomas last year promised to be a classic, but Jared never got the slightest look in. I would like to wish him the best but he's gone to the wrong team for that. One consolation is that if he starts that messing again this year, there's players in NFC North who can easily take advantage. By training accounts Kalil has his measure in any case these days too.

kennyb3

Oat23 wrote: »

2013 sacks:

Peppers - 7
Ware - 6 (13 games)
Allen - 11.5

As much as I like Allen and no doubting his production that's an unfair comparision; Ware changed to a 4-3 and had a new DC, and Peppers had Landon cohen and Corey Wotton playing DT for part the season with McClellin getting abused by TE's and looking lost. Allen had the same defence plus a 1st round pick in Floyd and an improving Griffen.

I like the signing but lets not blow our own trumpets unnecessarily.

Bushrod (getting no help) was comfortable against him for the most part last year, which has to be a concern.

Oat23

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's been amazing for many seasons, and the 2011 season where the Vikings went 3-13 and he nearly broke the sack record was phenomenal. However he was poor last year, no two ways about it. He had no interest in stopping the run, just simply rushing on the outside continuously to try and get his beloved sack, and leaving a gaping hole for the other team to rush into. His selfishness and desire to get sacks has been a good trait but it really worked to the teams detriment last year. He also looks to have lost some ability. The matchup with Joe Thomas last year promised to be a classic, but Jared never got the slightest look in. I would like to wish him the best but he's gone to the wrong team for that. One consolation is that if he starts that messing again this year, there's players in NFC North who can easily take advantage. By training accounts Kalil has his measure in any case these days too.

I remember his ignoring the run against the Bears last year too. I was praying for Trest to run the Alshon end-around, and when he did it went for a huge gain. Hopefully it is not as big a problem this year.

kennyb3 wrote: »

As much as I like Allen and no doubting his production that's an unfair comparision; Ware changed to a 4-3 and had a new DC, and Peppers had Landon cohen and Corey Wotton playing DT for part the season with McClellin getting abused by TE's and looking lost. Allen had the same defence plus a 1st round pick in Floyd and an improving Griffen.

I like the signing but lets not blow our own trumpets unnecessarily.

Bushrod (getting no help) was comfortable against him for the most part last year, which has to be a concern.

You're always so negative on here. What does Emery have to do for you to be happy? We needed an offense, he gave us a terrific one. Defense is bad? He is fixing that too. He's a proven DE, and along with Houston and Young there is so much potential there. The rotation will be a helluva lot better in 14' than 13'. It also allows the team to do a lot of different things with the 14th pick.

Sacks are king at the end of the day. He had more than Peppers, he is a better player and we got him for a lot less than Peppers was going to cost. Emery is doing a great job.

--

Your call for Cutler to be released and go with a rookie while fixing the D was also wrong. Bennett was not interested in money and we have done will in FA anyway. After the draft, the D will be good enough to be at least middle of the pack and we still have our franchise QB. Not some rookie who may or may not work out.

kennyb3

Oat23 wrote: »

You're always so negative on here. What does Emery have to do for you to be happy? We needed an offense, he gave us a terrific one. Defense is bad? He is fixing that too. He's a proven DE, and along with Houston and Young there is so much potential there. The rotation will be a helluva lot better in 14' than 13'. It also allows the team to do a lot of different things with the 14th pick.

Sacks are king at the end of the day. He had more than Peppers, he is a better player and we got him for a lot less than Peppers was going to cost. Emery is doing a great job.

I prefer to call it balanced, critical and analytical rather than just dawning the navy and orange jersey every time we do anything - nothing wrong with that. I tell it as I see it - you were the one claiming Martz and Tice were geniuses once upon a time.:o

I said I like the signing but have concerns. I loved the Houston one and have no concerns on that at all. I liked the Young one but was concerned that he mightn't look as good without Suh & Fairley and that we had no depth. Obviously we do now, so it makes that signing even better.

kennyb3

Oat23 wrote: »

Your call for Cutler to be released and go with a rookie while fixing the D was also wrong. Bennett was not interested in money and we have done will in FA anyway. After the draft, the D will be good enough to be at least middle of the pack and we still have our franchise QB. Not some rookie who may or may not work out.

I guess we'll never know if I was wrong or not. And I note you left out the fact I wanted McCown as the QB for a couple of years first not a rookie. and anyway that wasn't what I actually wanted, what I wanted was to secure Cutler at a more reasonable rate given we had leverage.

I'm sure you'll be back on to let me know if McCown fails in Tampa (under totally different circumstances).

If you don't like my posts ignore them, or at least counter argue rather than label me as negative.

Oat23

kennyb3 wrote: »

I guess we'll never know if I was wrong or not. And I note you left out the fact I wanted McCown as the QB for a couple of years first not a rookie. and anyway that wasn't what I actually wanted, what I wanted was to secure Cutler at a more reasonable rate given we had leverage.

I'm sure you'll be back on to let me know if McCown fails in Tampa (under totally different circumstances).

If you don't like my posts ignore them, or at least counter argue rather than label me as negative.

McCown will be 35 when the season starts. Two years at most. You could give the #14 rookie 5 years, but if he hasn't got the talent then he won't be a good player. It would have been a terrible decision to go that route.

How much better could we have done? Better safeties probably, but you don't give up the franchise QB for safeties.

I won't be back with 'I told you so's' when he fails either. I wish him the best, but I don't see it working at all. I said this before the season even ended. He would have been adequate here, but nowhere else. There will be no reason for me to come back and say I told you so as just about everyone thinks the same as me.

SameOleJay

Thanks for the post Hulk. After enduring Peppers’ phoning it in last year I’m not sure I can abide another prima-donna rusher. Hopefully he is rejuvenated in Chicago.

The move excites me, especially with the rotation element. Houston is no edge rusher… pushing him inside on passing downs with Young and Allen on the edge should be very decent. Houston is flat out dominant against the run aswell. Also, the draft is now open for best defensive player available at 14 or, who knows, a trade down. I’m happy out.

Hulk Hands

No prob. On the plus side you're getting the best DE of the last decade on a decent deal, and he can certainly still get to the QB. It could be very good, it just depends on Jared. I'd be more confident of his performance had he gone to a top contender like the Seahawks for less money though, with all respect to the Bears

SameOleJay

Oat23 wrote: »

McCown will be 35 when the season starts. Two years at most. You could give the #14 rookie 5 years, but if he hasn't got the talent then he won't be a good player. It would have been a terrible decision to go that route.

How much better could we have done? Better safeties probably, but you don't give up the franchise QB for safeties.

I agree keeping Jay was needed but this is out of order.


Keeping McCown and drafting aQB in the first or second round may well have allowed is to strengthen much further elsewhere without hindering the offence too much. We’ll just never know.


Contrarian views are what keeps the forum ticking over… it’d be pretty dull without them. Kenny will be as excited as any Bear fan for 2014 I’m sure.

kennyb3

Oat23 wrote: »

McCown will be 35 when the season starts. Two years at most. You could give the #14 rookie 5 years, but if he hasn't got the talent then he won't be a good player. It would have been a terrible decision to go that route.

Again you ignored the bit about what I really wanted (as well as my other post) but fine. So players can't be developed? Not sure why we have a draft that goes beyond one round so by your logic.

Oat23 wrote: »

How much better could we have done? Better safeties probably, but you don't give up the franchise QB for safeties.

With another what $14m this year - who knows? Another DT, a LBer, a good safety etc. Would we perform any better/worse than me might this year? As I said it can't be proved either way, if it could I'd try.

Oat23 wrote: »

I won't be back with 'I told you so's' when he fails either. I wish him the best, but I don't see it working at all. I said this before the season even ended. He would have been adequate here, but nowhere else. There will be no reason for me to come back and say I told you so as just about everyone thinks the same as me.

Well you must be right so.

kennyb3

Just to add if we win our division or even make it to the playoffs together with either last years drafted LBers stepping up or this years defensive draft looking promising I'll happily come back and say Emery is the man. We just aren't at that stage - it looks promising, it did last year too yet we slid from 10-8 to 8-8. As sameoldjay alludes too i'll be as happy as any Bears fan.

Oat23

kennyb3 wrote: »

Again you ignored the bit about what I really wanted (as well as my other post) but fine. So players can't be developed? Not sure why we have a draft that goes beyond one round so by your logic.



With another what $14m this year - who knows? Another DT, a LBer, a good safety etc. Would we perform any better/worse than me might this year? As I said it can't be proved either way, if it could I'd try.



Well you must be right so.

Some of the best players the bears have had the past 10 years have come in the latter half of the draft, since Angelo was useless in the first round. So I don't think anything of the kind. I just think it would have been a huge mistake to let the best QB this team has had walk away and go with a career backup and a rookie. You cannot win without a QB. Ponder, Sanchez, Freeman...do you believe these guys could have been superbowl winning QBs had they sat the first two years of their career? For me, they are just not good enough. You can try to develop a guy, but if he doesn't have it then he doesn't have it. It is that simple. Emery knew that and it is the reason Cutler is still here.

kennyb3 wrote: »

I prefer to call it balanced, critical and analytical rather than just dawning the navy and orange jersey every time we do anything - nothing wrong with that. I tell it as I see it - you were the one claiming Martz and Tice were geniuses once upon a time.

I said I like the signing but have concerns. I loved the Houston one and have no concerns on that at all. I liked the Young one but was concerned that he mightn't look as good without Suh & Fairley and that we had no depth. Obviously we do now, so it makes that signing even better.

I missed this because in 7 years on Boards, I still have not learned I should use the 'go to newest post' button and instead go straight to the last one in the thread.

I thought Martz was an offensive genius? Oh well. He had history. How was anyone supposed to know he was past his time. Lets not forget who was the OC before him. I was just happy that we didn't have that anymore.

Tice an offensive genius? He is a great line coach. But he should never be an OC.

I also thought Devin Hester could be an adequate receiver and that the dude who could jump out of the pool would be class under Marinelli. We are wrong sometimes. Like you were on the Cutler issue .

We are in a position to compete now. I don't believe McCown would give us the same chance.

SameOleJay wrote: »

I agree keeping Jay was needed but this is out of order.


Keeping McCown and drafting aQB in the first or second round may well have allowed is to strengthen much further elsewhere without hindering the offence too much. We’ll just never know.

It would have hindered the offense massively if you ask me. McCown isn't as good as Cutler, and as I said, you don't know what you are going to get with a rookie going from the NCAA to the NFL. You would have McCown for 2 years, but then when it comes time for the young guy to step up, if he can't, you're f*cked. The top linebacker and safety you got 2 years before after letting Cutler go aren't going to help fix that problem.

SameOleJay

Allen / Ratliff / Houston / Young

That's no joke lads.

We desperately need an upgrade at linebacker... no later than the second for me.

I said last season I’d only be happy if every unit of the D showed a discernable improvement for 2014. I think that’s more than attainable now depending on the draft.

kennyb3

Oat23 wrote: »

Some of the best players the bears have had the past 10 years have come in the latter half of the draft, since Angelo was useless in the first round. So I don't think anything of the kind. I just think it would have been a huge mistake to let the best QB this team has had walk away and go with a career backup and a rookie. You cannot win without a QB.

You won't get be arguing against the fact he's the best QB we've ever had. But he's also the most expensive and he's also misses games through injury. As I've repeated numerous times my main issue is how much he was paid. He's paid just short of elite money, he's also payed as a 16 game QB but hasn't played 16 games since 2009. So to summarise I think we should have been paid less because;

(a) We had leverage in McCown - regardless of whether it was repeatable - he played awesome given the system and weapons. You point that out to Jay.

(b) His other options were what? Tampa in that division? The Raiders? Who else had the cap? Again use it as leverage

(c) The injuries. If you pro rata his games to pay it's actually crazy money.

(d) The home town discount/help the team discount.

All 4 seem to have went out the window imho. That was my issue.

I simply pointed out a viable alternative - it wasn't my number one option by any stretch but I was challenged to do and happily obliged.

Oat23 wrote: »

Ponder, Sanchez, Freeman...do you believe these guys could have been superbowl winning QBs had they sat the first two years of their career? For me, they are just not good enough. You can try to develop a guy, but if he doesn't have it then he doesn't have it. It is that simple. Emery knew that and it is the reason Cutler is still here.

Firstly no I don't believe any of these guys are SB winning QB's.

But I have to stop you there - why are we using the term SB winning QB's? Jay hasn't won one of these and hasn't shown he is close to winning one? If you are going to tell me he has the potential I'd like to know what that's based off.

I don't want to get into ripping Jay apart - I've gone over the negatives before (interceptions, records v GB, lack of playoff wins etc) so it's old ground.

I just think we should be talking about QB's in the context of getting to a playoff until we actually get to one again.

Now getting back to the QB's - You are picking specific ones to suit your agenda. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't one QB in this whole draft that doesn't have the potential to be developed by Trestman into someone that could lead the team down the line - because that's what your essentially suggesting.

Oat23 wrote: »

I missed this because in 7 years on Boards, I still have not learned I should use the 'go to newest post' button and instead go straight to the last one in the thread.

I thought Martz was an offensive genius? Oh well. He had history. How was anyone supposed to know he was past his time. Lets not forget who was the OC before him. I was just happy that we didn't have that anymore.

Tice an offensive genius? He is a great line coach. But he should never be an OC.

I also thought Devin Hester could be an adequate receiver and that the dude who could jump out of the pool would be class under Marinelli. We are wrong sometimes. Like you were on the Cutler issue .

We are in a position to compete now. I don't believe McCown would give us the same chance.

I wasn't trying to mock you, simply I'm frustrated that you can't seem to for a second concede you might be wrong (even if we never find out) and was a bit annoyed in you labelling me negative rather than counter arguing, it seems you took offence to post. As I said I might be a bit negative but only when I feel it warrants it - I don't always agree with others and to be honest it frustrates me that fans sit back clap every move by the GM and then we don't make the playoffs or win a superbowl again. It's not all roses and daisy's and GM's and coach's f'uck up - it's just analysing that and offering opinion and discussing it.

Oat23 wrote: »

It would have hindered the offense massively if you ask me. McCown isn't as good as Cutler, and as I said, you don't know what you are going to get with a rookie going from the NCAA to the NFL. You would have McCown for 2 years, but then when it comes time for the young guy to step up, if he can't, you're f*cked. The top linebacker and safety you got 2 years before after letting Cutler go aren't going to help fix that problem.

McCown isn't as good as Cutler, but he played close if not better for periods last year. Thing is he doesn't need to be given the cap difference and the stronger all round team you can build. McCown hasnt shown the same propensity for getting inured at critical times or throwing picks.

You do realise we are going to have to draft Cutlers replacement next year if not this?

Do you think the team is going to fall apart when it comes for someone else to start?

How long do you think Jay with his injuries will realistically last anyway?I'm pretty sure the guaranteed money all being in the first 3 years is for a reason.

Do you not have faith in Trestmans QB development abilities given what you seen last year? He had McCown, who if he is as bad as you make out is a hack and journeyman, playing like Dan Marino (slight exagerration but he was lights out).

kennyb3

SameOleJay wrote: »

Allen / Ratliff / Houston / Young

That's no joke lads.

We desperately need an upgrade at linebacker... no later than the second for me.

I said last season I’d only be happy if every unit of the D showed a discernable improvement for 2014. I think that’s more than attainable now depending on the draft.

Not to be pedantic but I'd be pretty sure Allen will be the RDE (9 tech). Will be interesting to see what they do with Houston. It gives us great versatility.

On obvious run downs I see it more like

Houston/Ratliff/Paea/Young

on obvious pass downs

Young/Houston (3 tech)/Paea or Ratliff/ Allen.

Houston can go between LE and 3 tech.

Young between RE (his natural position) and LE (when Allen is in)

SameOleJay

I assume you agree safety and linebacker are the pressing needs in the early rounds?

What way would you go?

kennyb3

SameOleJay wrote: »

I assume you agree safety and linebacker are the pressing needs in the early rounds?

What way would you go?

Safety yes. I think linebacker also but not sure Emery will, I think he'll feel comfortable with the 2 players drafted last year and McClellin to add to Williams & Briggs. Personally I don't agree and think we need a long term Mike.

We definitely still need a CB to develop for next year when Tillman will likely be let go, so I think that will happen in the top 3 rounds and we still need Dline depth but how high that will be drafted I don't know. Obviously not in first or second as you want players that can start but I'd like a Young DT as Ratliff won't be around for too long and Paea misses games and collins is coming off an ACL and is just a back up imho.

I'd go S, LB, CB, DT. I'd prob even go Mosley, S, CB, DT if we could trade down or maybe even if not but I doubt it happens. But its just so hard without seeing whats come before.

I think the main thing to be excited about (yes I used excited:)) is that the signings gives us great options both on the field and in the draft.

Oat23

kennyb3 wrote: »

You won't get be arguing against the fact he's the best QB we've ever had. But he's also the most expensive and he's also misses games through injury. As I've repeated numerous times my main issue is how much he was paid. He's paid just short of elite money, he's also payed as a 16 game QB but hasn't played 16 games since 2009. So to summarise I think we should have been paid less because;

(a) We had leverage in McCown - regardless of whether it was repeatable - he played awesome given the system and weapons. You point that out to Jay.

(b) His other options were what? Tampa in that division? The Raiders? Who else had the cap? Again use it as leverage

(c) The injuries. If you pro rata his games to pay it's actually crazy money.

(d) The home town discount/help the team discount.

All 4 seem to have went out the window imho. That was my issue.

I simply pointed out a viable alternative - it wasn't my number one option by any stretch but I was challenged to do and happily obliged.



Firstly no I don't believe any of these guys are SB winning QB's.

But I have to stop you there - why are we using the term SB winning QB's? Jay hasn't won one of these and hasn't shown he is close to winning one? If you are going to tell me he has the potential I'd like to know what that's based off.

I don't want to get into ripping Jay apart - I've gone over the negatives before (interceptions, records v GB, lack of playoff wins etc) so it's old ground.

I just think we should be talking about QB's in the context of getting to a playoff until we actually get to one again.

Now getting back to the QB's - You are picking specific ones to suit your agenda. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't one QB in this whole draft that doesn't have the potential to be developed by Trestman into someone that could lead the team down the line - because that's what your essentially suggesting.



I wasn't trying to mock you, simply I'm frustrated that you can't seem to for a second concede you might be wrong (even if we never find out) and was a bit annoyed in you labelling me negative rather than counter arguing, it seems you took offence to post. As I said I might be a bit negative but only when I feel it warrants it - I don't always agree with others and to be honest it frustrates me that fans sit back clap every move by the GM and then we don't make the playoffs or win a superbowl again. It's not all roses and daisy's and GM's and coach's f'uck up - it's just analysing that and offering opinion and discussing it.




McCown isn't as good as Cutler, but he played close if not better for periods last year. Thing is he doesn't need to be given the cap difference and the stronger all round team you can build. McCown hasnt shown the same propensity for getting inured at critical times or throwing picks.

You do realise we are going to have to draft Cutlers replacement next year if not this?

Do you think the team is going to fall apart when it comes for someone else to start?

How long do you think Jay with his injuries will realistically last anyway?I'm pretty sure the guaranteed money all being in the first 3 years is for a reason.

Do you not have faith in Trestmans QB development abilities given what you seen last year? He had McCown, who if he is as bad as you make out is a hack and journeyman, playing like Dan Marino (slight exagerration but he was lights out).

Who is to say they didn't try to use McCown as leverage and it failed? Cutler might have called their bluff and said he'd hit FA. He is paid a lot, yes. But if he can stay healthy he can lead this team to a superbowl. I have no doubt in my mind about that having watched him play the past few years, especially last season under Trest before he was injured. There are no excuses now, everything on the offensive side of the ball is in place and he has to do his job.

The reason I am talking about SB's is because that is the ultimate goal. If it isn't, why bother? Everybody aims for the superbowl When you draft a quarterback you don't draft him hoping he can lead your team to a few playoff appearances. You draft him hoping he will be the guy to lead the team to a championship in the future. I believe Cutler can do that. I also believe there are rookie QBs in the draft each year that could. An Andrew Luck doesn't come out every year, but QBs capable of leading teams to championships do. The problem is finding them and I don't think it was worth risking so much in the hope that you find one of those guys.

Cutler will be 31 soon. I hope he will be the starter for the next 3 years at least. Yes, we will have to get someone in the draft, but there is no pressure on Emery/Trest now when it comes to drafting the future QB. The three QBs I used in my last post were picked in the first round by GMs under pressure to find a leader. They can take their time and get him in 2015/2016 if they don't see anyone they like this year. If Cutler had left in FA a pick would have been forced this year. I'm confident that whoever they do draft will have a great chance to succeed under Trest. I was not at all happy at the thought of a pick being forced though.

I never said McCown was a hack either, he is a very reliable backup that played great in an offense filled with talent.

B Marsh is putting stuff up on his instagram of the teams time in Miami. Good to see them all bonding. Cutty came first when they went go karting and he made Marquess Wilson (2nd) carry his trophy around all night...What an ass :pac:

kennyb3

So who is growing an Allen mullet in support of the signing?

Realt Dearg Sec

kennyb3 wrote: »

So who is growing an Allen mullet in support of the signing?

Maybe if we were Tennessee fans or something.

Oat23

From what I have read on his twitter, Kyle Long is pro-mullet. He will like this signing.

SameOleJay

So DLP and Britton on board suggests we can do without an OL addition in the draft.

Here’s a rough breakdown of how I’d go. We had Josh Freeman in Monday so I’m assuming we’ll take a journeyman back-up QB of some form in and leave the draft project this year.

DT (Day 1 starter, preferably Donald)
Safety (Day 1 starter)
Cornerback (To cover and replace Peanut eventually)
Linebacker (Capable, if no stud)
Running back
A receiving Tight-End to cover TBU.

And one other.

kennyb3

A development DT would also be nice as we need some youth in that department before too long.