Regional Airports

veryangryman

All that im saying is that withdrawing PSOs and closing airports are not necessarily the same thing. Vast majority of posters here seem to think otherwise.

serfboard

veryangryman wrote: »

All that im saying is that withdrawing PSOs and closing airports are not necessarily the same thing.

Indeed - Michael O'Leary voluntarily withdrew from the PSO to Kerry, and that airport didn't close (well, they did let people go, mind).

Some people use PSO as a catch-all to describe subsidies. However, without PSOs, subsidies will have to be increased by quite an amount to keep certain airports open. Sligo and Galway, for example. And that's not value-for-money with Knock and Shannon close by.

OurLadyofKnock

Sligo Airport has to be seen to be believed. The people who live near it hate is and the management and want it shut down. The headbangers who manage it are constantly looking to expand the thing ("the west will die if we do not exapnd the airport!!!") even though more people work there than arrive to it by plane. There a nice beach walk on the land they want to acquire which is a wildlife sanctuary filled with birds and seals which about 10 years ago Sligo Airport identified as "unsightly waste ground".

dowlingm

veryangryman wrote: »

Read my earlier post regarding withdrawing PSO's. If the customer is willing to pay the price for these flights, they should be allowed the facility.

Given what a DUB-SXL seat would cost without subsidy before you figure in the cost of the onward leg, the "Polish community" could probably arrange a direct charter flight from NOC (say weekly) for less if there really is a critical mass.

Tech3

Article in the Irish times regarding Sligo, Galway and waterford in trouble next year as the government cannot afford to keep subsidising them.

Kerry, Donegal and Knock will probably survive.

dubhthach

Tech3 wrote: »

Article in the Irish times regarding Sligo, Galway and waterford in trouble next year as the government cannot afford to keep subsidising them.

Kerry, Donegal and Knock will probably survive.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0516/1224297039625.html

Three regional airports may close due to lack of funding

PAUL CULLEN, Political Staff

REGIONAL AIRPORTS in Galway, Sligo and Waterford are facing closure next year following a Government decision not to shore up their mounting losses.

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar is to inform the airports shortly that he does not have sufficient funds to continue subsidising their operations, and that whatever financial support he can raise within his department will go to other airports which are regarded as being closer to viability.

Of the remaining regional airports, Knock and Kerry airports are close to break-even, while Donegal is also regarded as viable.

However, all three will be told to cut costs further if they want to survive.

The subsidies being sought by the six regional airports are much greater than the money available in the budget, the Minister confirmed last night.

“I’m looking for solutions that will provide some of this money for this year, but clearly it will not be a case of business as usual,” he said.

A memo circulated to Government departments this month argues that Ireland is now over-provided with airports because of improved road networks and the economic downturn.

It points out that the cost of running small airports has increased considerably because of more stringent security requirements.

Operational and capital expenditure at all six regional airports is heavily subsidised, and the Government also supports public service obligation (PSO) routes from the airports to and from Dublin.

PSO routes are not viable commercially but are considered vital for regional economic development.

However, from July only one PSO flight, the Donegal-Dublin route, is being supported.

This year the six airports have submitted requests for capital spending support totalling €4 million, twice the amount available from the department. The support requested for operating subsidies comes to €7 million, far greater than the €500,000 available.

Mr Varadkar has said he cannot reverse the cutbacks in the regional airport budget agreed by the last government, although he has undertaken to seek funding from other parts of his department.

However, this funding is unlikely to cover more than a fraction of the sum sought and applies only to this year.

It is believed the Minister intends to concentrate any available support on the airports he sees as having a better chance of survival, Knock, Kerry and Donegal.

The Government is keen for the remaining airports to refocus their business models away from commuter services for passengers by seeking other work.

Although closure is not regarded as inevitable, it is hard to see how commuter services can continue without an exchequer subsidy.

Subsidies at the airports range from €20 per passenger at Sligo, to €15 at Waterford and Galway, and €2-3 at Knock and Donegal.

serfboard

Leo Varadkar was just on the news at one and made the following startling observation:

We have no money (!)

He further said (paraphrasing) "Airports that could not sustain themselves during the boom will not be able to sustain themselves in the recovery".

He also made reference to the fact that transport cuts are going to be deeper this year.

veryangryman

serfboard wrote: »

Leo Varadkar was just on the news at one and made the following startling observation:

We have no money (!)

He further said (paraphrasing) "Airports that could not sustain themselves during the boom will not be able to sustain themselves in the recovery".

He also made reference to the fact that transport cuts are going to be deeper this year.

God, this guy has the country's easiest job.

While Dempsey, Cullen etc had to decide what to spend money on, this guy doesnt have to do that at all! We have no money, the answer to everything

serfboard

veryangryman wrote: »

God, this guy has the country's easiest job.

While Dempsey, Cullen etc had to decide what to spend money on, this guy doesnt have to do that at all! We have no money, the answer to everything

I think the second part is more instructive than the first. Basically, he's saying that when (if) we ever manage to start getting some decent money into the country again, he won't be minded to waste it on loss-making airports. Cullen and Dempsey wasted the money they had by giving little bits to everyone, thus giving Bertie Ahern three elections in a row. We're now paying the price for it.

RobitTV

out of the 3 airports - the most important one is Waterford

it caters for nearly 630 jobs, and its the only way of driving foward the south-eastern economy.

Waterford is very important compared to sligo and galway, Waterford is Probably the only Regional airport, that makes a good enough profit, not a great profit, but good enough/ok

Without a Airport in the south-east!

What about the Coastguard helicopter?, it will be drafted of to somewhere else, Meaning longer response times, putting mins of peoples lifes at risk.

No More pilot training course, Waterford is the best in europe, Waterford send's 100% well trained pilots off to begin their career, without that, less opportunitys for future pilots, This will mean people who want to train to be a pilot, might have to go off somewhere else in europe.

If it closes, it will be left their to die a hard death, The runaway will be left their for decades, because there will be no money to do anything on the site, It will be deserted like Chernobyl, only for Aircraft spotters, to hear nothing.

coolperson05

I don't think Waterford will close as it doesnt have a mandatory flight to Dublin, funded by the state! Waterford should survive on it's flight school and Aer Arann flights.
And to be honest, beside knock, the rest should go. Theres basically a motorway to Shannon from Galway and you can get anywhere in the world from there. There's a motorway/direct bus AND Train from Galway to Dublin so no need for domestic flights there. Sligo also had decent road and rail connections and Derry is beside Donegal so that's that. Waterford is questionable (and I'm from Waterford!) but if they support themselves, leave them off. The rest I'm afraid have to go. Knock will survive with Ryanair and other charter airlines. Ireland only really needs Dublin, Cork and Shannon, complimented by Derry and Belfast.

RobitTV

coolperson05 wrote: »

I don't think Waterford will close as it doesnt have a mandatory flight to Dublin, funded by the state! Waterford should survive on it's flight school and Aer Arann flights.
And to be honest, beside knock, the rest should go. Theres basically a motorway to Shannon from Galway and you can get anywhere in the world from there. There's a motorway/direct bus AND Train from Galway to Dublin so no need for domestic flights there. Sligo also had decent road and rail connections and Derry is beside Donegal so that's that. Waterford is questionable (and I'm from Waterford!) but if they support themselves, leave them off. The rest I'm afraid have to go. Knock will survive with Ryanair and other charter airlines. Ireland only really needs Dublin, Cork and Shannon, complimented by Derry and Belfast.

I Agree, Waterford can survive Its the main Point of Travel for people In Co.Waterford and the South-East, Because Its just 100% Easier for people who want to get to the UK quickly, Or even Galway, Im Pretty sure they wont close it Because of the Flight Training school. and the 24/7 Coastguard helicopter service (which is extremely important), And Aer Arann, with their brilliant routes.

Beside Knock and Waterford, The rest should just die, Sligo, Galway, Donegal, Kerry, and whatever useless regional airport is in ireland.

Sligo and Donegal or Very close to eachother, and should just be closed now there not Fiancially viable in this economic Climate.

Galway should also close, the runaway is terribly small, so there is no future for expansion because of the economic climate.

Kerry is also Questionable - Ryanair currently do flights there, but if there not doing well, it should close, its quite close to shannon/cork - So it should close IMO!

All we need is - Waterford,Knock,Dublin,Shannon,Cork - Northern ireland - Belfast International And City airport and Derry maybe???

That is all we need on the island of ireland!

L1011

Donegal Airport is nowhere NEAR Sligo, hence the point of it. Its in the bit of the county with terrible roads that isn't even planned to get decent roads.

RobitTV

MYOB wrote: »

Donegal Airport is nowhere NEAR Sligo, hence the point of it. Its in the bit of the county with terrible roads that isn't even planned to get decent roads.

If the roads are rubbish, Then there is no future for both of the airports, in the transport area, getting there and getting out to the towns/villages.

I Doubt in the current economic climate, the goverment will upgrade any part of the road.

Also sligo has good train links to Dublin, That is another reason why Sligo airport is not Fiancially viable.

As for donegal, you could just go to Derry airport, which is even nearer to donegal then sligo.

I Doubt people from Dublin will travel to Sligo just to use their airport tho, Lol :P

There are a couple of reasons why, Sligo and donegal are not Fiancially viable!

(Sorry i went abit off-topic, On your Quote)

L1011

RobitTV wrote: »

As for donegal, you could just go to Derry airport, which is even nearer to donegal then sligo.

Its not. Again, its nowhere close to the area the airport is in.

Its also clear you haven't got the slightest clue about Donegal. There is a reason it is the PSO that was left intact.

veryangryman

I have to say that closing these are very short sighted

There are a number of indirect benefits to having these servcies, both in tourism (Yanks travelling to Ring of Kerry/Glenveagh Park etc) and business (weekend commuters who dont have the luxury of a car). If the planes are being filled, then theres obviously demand for them.

Sorry to sound unpopular but massive thumbs down for Leo from me on this. If anyone thought that keeping them open was a FF vote getter then surely you acknowledge that a large number of people wanted them open? Does that add up perchance folks? I hate Dempsey and co as much, if not more than the next man, but I have to say its sad how eroded the country is getting.

RobitTV

MYOB wrote: »

Its not. Again, its nowhere close to the area the airport is in.

Its also clear you haven't got the slightest clue about Donegal. There is a reason it is the PSO that was left intact.

It takes 1 hour And 30 mins to get to derry from Donegal. (That is not actually far, You could easily drive there, This airport is nearer then sligo, which is also on the target list)

The reason why it was intact - "The Senator, who has been selected as a candidate in Donegal South West for the upcoming general election, has secured assurances about the future of the PSO from the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey"

"“Following extensive campaigning on this issue, I have now been assured by the Minister that this important State support for Donegal Airport will continue,” explained Senator Ó’Domhnaill"

This was before the Nationwide general election.

Also donegal airport only has 2 Routes - Donegal to Dublin / Donegal to Glasgow

I Highly doubt many People go on those Flights each week, And since donegal has a route to dublin, (THAT is state funded) Im not surprised Donegal is on the target list.

Regional airports with a state funded route to dublin, Are on the target list.

Neworder79

Most of Sligo, Donegal & Waterford catchment is in the Atlantic.



A lot of these arguments are pointess, the reality is it costs millions to run small airports and all the associated services. That is no longer justifiable for a couple of flights a day (often with less than 10 people onboard) when there are cheaper, also subsidised transport alternatives and better served airports nearby.

If private airports can become commercially viable or find local investment great, but taxpayers subsiding travel for a privileged few when hospital and social services are being cut is hard to justify.

L1011

RobitTV wrote: »

It takes 1 hour And 30 mins to get to derry from Donegal. (That is not actually far, You could easily drive there, This airport is nearer then sligo, which is also on the target list)

Donegal TOWN which is where you are measuring from has a good road connection to the rest of the country.

The airport is NOWHERE NEAR Donegal Town. It is in the Rosses, an isolated area in the north west of the county from which it takes 5+ hours to get to Dublin and 2 to 3 hours to get to Derry or Sligo

You don't know the area, stop acting like you do.

Judgement Day

Where does all this leave Arklow International Airport? :rolleyes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0625/1224273271194.html

fricatus

Neworder79 wrote: »

Most of Sligo, Donegal & Waterford catchment is in the Atlantic.

I take it this is tongue-in-cheek? Most of Dublin's catchment is in the Irish Sea if we follow that logic.

That's an interesting map you posted. If anything, it shows that Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny are the only main centres of population not within 90 minutes of a jet-capable airport - surely this is evidence in favour of an upgrade of WAT, or am I missing something?

Balmed Out

parts of west cork over 2 hrs from any airport.

Geuze

Very good map

RobitTV

MYOB wrote: »

Donegal TOWN which is where you are measuring from has a good road connection to the rest of the country.

The airport is NOWHERE NEAR Donegal Town. It is in the Rosses, an isolated area in the north west of the county from which it takes 5+ hours to get to Dublin and 2 to 3 hours to get to Derry or Sligo

You don't know the area, stop acting like you do.

I am not actually............

i measured from donegal airport to Derry airport = 1 hour and 30 mins

:rolleyes:

and 5+ hours to get to dublin thats abit over the top now............

and 2 to 3 hours???........:rolleyes:

Stinicker

Balmed Out wrote: »

parts of west cork over 2 hrs from any airport.

Most of the Beara peninsula in West Cork are closer to Kerry Airport and similarly have Killarney and Rathmore as their nearest train stations.

antoobrien

RobitTV wrote: »

i measured from donegal airport to Derry airport = 1 hour and 30 mins

Be very careful basing times on measuring distances on maps because they are often misleading as they don't take into account the vagaries of the condition and types of roads, traffic counts, local traffic, sunday drivers etc.

A good example of this is Galway to Dublin pre motorway (kilcock to kinnegad not open, rest of it not even started). Drove to Dublin on a friday morning to do an interview, leaving Galway at 8.30am and was in kinnegad having breakfast at about 11. Took another hour to get to the interview site, so call it 3.5 hours total travel time for about 220 km (i got the job so I'm aware of the exact distance). I left the business park at about 3pm, stopping in moate at 7 pm. Got to Galway at about 10.30 pm, making it about 7 hours to do the same 220 km. For the record, it takes 2h 15m with the upgraded m50, and motorway system.

A longwinded way of saying don't trust everything you read from maps.

L1011

RobitTV wrote: »

I am not actually............

i measured from donegal airport to Derry airport = 1 hour and 30 mins

:rolleyes:

and 5+ hours to get to dublin thats abit over the top now............

and 2 to 3 hours???........:rolleyes:

Again, total lack of knowledge of the area.

It is completely impossible to drive from Donegal Airport to Derry Airport in 90 minutes. Even with zero traffic and a completely clear run of lights in Derry and clear across the Foyle Bridge it won't happen.

In light traffic in Leterkenny and Derry, it'd be 2 hours. In heavy, it'll be three. The roads across Donegal are brutal and slow.

It also takes 5 hours from the Rosses to Dublin Airport unless traffic is completely non-existent and driving conditions are perfect.

Google Maps does not replace knowing an area so please stop pretending you do.

RobitTV

MYOB wrote: »

Again, total lack of knowledge of the area.

It is completely impossible to drive from Donegal Airport to Derry Airport in 90 minutes. Even with zero traffic and a completely clear run of lights in Derry and clear across the Foyle Bridge it won't happen.

In light traffic in Leterkenny and Derry, it'd be 2 hours. In heavy, it'll be three. The roads across Donegal are brutal and slow.

It also takes 5 hours from the Rosses to Dublin Airport unless traffic is completely non-existent and driving conditions are perfect.

Google Maps does not replace knowing an area so please stop pretending you do.

...... ok how about we get back to the subject of the regional airports?

discussion over on this

RobitTV

Anyone got any new news on the Airports?

L1011

RobitTV wrote: »

...... ok how about we get back to the subject of the regional airports?

discussion over on this

Do you accept the need for Donegal Airport, then?