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The Perfect Program
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Will Heffernan wrote: »Anyone have anything to add to this? I thought I'd bump it up because there are a lot of people who've posted in this thread that I know have gotten new certifications lately or different certifications etc etc and people that have been exposed to different training methodologies in this past year. I thought it would be interesting for the people who've posted to look back on what they said and see if they'd modify or change anything in light of recent experience.
I figure it would be a good way for me to contribute positively to the board without doing anything at all.
Interesting you should say that, for the last year I have been doing a lot of different types of training with a variety of people and groups. I used to be pretty dogmatic about training and not have a whole lot of time for training outside my own interests or in training in which I would not immediately excel. Now every chance I get to experience something different I take it if for no other reason than to have a better opinion on something but also I find myself less reluctant to criticise any type of training, no matter how it cool it may be perceived by others. For instance Crossfit is an example of training that people either love or downright hate and I find a lot of the time the "Functional Trainers" who hate Crossfit aren’t doing training that is a whole lot different only that they are calling it "Functional" and again I'm not criticising either I'm just saying there is not always a need to criticising something because it’s not the cool thing that you do. Also a side effect of this for me is that I now just go out and train and don't spend my time during training thinking what is being done is old fashioned or pointless...or dangerous :-) .. the results for me are that I enjoy training more, I'm experiencing new things, meeting new interesting people and I'm fitter possibly than I ever have been :-)
Just to add something to " The Perfect Program" from my experiences, I think you have got to give people a mixture of what they need and what they want. What they generally need is better mobility, flexibility, stability and any imbalances corrected. What they want is probably but not confined to a "beach body" but in most cases is, i.e. they wanna look good naked or near naked, they want other people admiration for the work they put in on their body. The most important ingredient, far more important than the other two for people is that they enjoy doing it and the training is something that adds to their life because they enjoy doing it. Enough people have stress in their lifes without adding training that is unenjoyable to them to the mix. Incidentally sometimes the most important ingredient to a program can be the coach who can make even the poorest program enjoyable and worthwhile.
My example is not that different from Hanleys which I think looks very good.
Warm up:
Foam rolling, Mobility and flexibility drills.
Strength:
Depending on how often the person is training per week and what their training experience and current level is. I'm going to take it that this person is training 2 per week and has a good level of consistent strength training.
Front Squats (reps 3-6) paired with Chin Ups (Reps 8-10) 4 sets for each.
Barbell Press (reps 5-8) paired with Dumbbell Row (Reps 8-10) 3 sets for each.
Conditioning:
This can be anything that makes the person feel that they have done a tough session!! What you do in the last ten minutes has a lot to do with the persons perception of what they have done in my opinion.
So maybe something like a mini circuit:
Inverted rows x 10, Press ups x 10, Goblet squat x 8, 10 hanging leg raises. 4 sets for time or as many sets as possible in 10 minutes - whatever makes you happy
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Hey all! Newbie here so go easy...
Basically I'm looking for some advice on what would be the best type of program for me to do in order to see some long term benefits to my waistline and general health. I'm not looking for a quick fix or to become a power lifter but since I started my desk job and had to give up the GAA 2 years ago, it has been expanding...
So, a bit about me.
6 foot tall, 23 year old male.
About 17 stone at the minute.
Have quite broad shoulders / deep chest so not as bad as it sounds straight out! A few years ago, even at 15/16 stone a few years ago I would have looked decent as it was mainly muscle but it's gone to flab now.
Generally my arms and shoulders are in pretty good nick (although a bit of toning never hurt anyone).
Have a big issue with my waist, spare tyre and more recently my thighs / ass region has grown more than I'm comfortable with. Pecs are starting to droop too...
I've read a lot of different arguments about cardio vs weights over the last while and I still don't really know what the optimal solution for me is. As I said, I'm looking for a long-term solution or just a constant routine I can follow to look a bit better and stay that way. I wouldn't have the dedication to just go out running 4/5 nights a week so would like to incorporate weights into my current schedule of soccer once / twice a week.
I travel a lot with work and that which adds to the problem, i.e. eating out, working late, etc. but I'm looking for a program based on when I am at home for a full week. Once I have that, I can try tailor it to use gyms on my travels wherever possible.
I don't want to join a gym; I think it would be pointless considering how much I am away. So I'm planning on buying a run of the mill weights bench with bar and dumbells and about 50kg or so of weights (I have no interest in doing max lifting so not really worth buying more weights than that). As a ballpark anyway, a few years ago after a month or 2 of pre-season gym work, I could max bench press about 80/90kg. From that experience, I know many of the basic weights exercises but I'm trying to put together a program I could do with just myself and these materials.
The types of exercises I have in my head are (apologies if my lingo isn't up to scratch!):
Bench press
Military press
Lateral dumbell raise
Bent over row
Deadlift
Bicep / tricep curl
Tricep dip
Squats
Lunges
Press ups
Stomach crunches
I would plan on doing about 45 mins - 1 hour, 2/3 times a week. I also play casual soccer once/twice a week.
So can you please give me your thoughts as to how I could turn that into a decent program?
My overall goal would be to try lose the belly, pec fat, spare tyre, fat thighs. Not expecting to come out really toned or with a 6-pack; but generally just not having to suck in my gut all the time would be great and not feeling ashamed of my body would be great... Girlfriend says she doesn't mind but I don't believe her!:p Want to do it for myself anyway!
Don't really care about losing weight as such. I've a big frame so if turning my current fat into muscle meant not losing anything bar maybe half a stone I wouldn't care. I know some people are very hung up on actual weight loss but I think it really depends on your build and whether you can carry it off.
Been reading this thread and a lot of it up to now seems to be focused on people who want to get bigger and stronger. I do not want to get any bigger.
Thanks in advance for the help and sorry for the long post! Thought it might be work giving a decent bit of background. 0 -
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I will point out a few things here in no particular order and they are not all applicable to you but some are so I will bang away here anyway.Is there so little hope for me that I've stopped a good thread in its tracks with my story? :eek:
1. Your question involves a fair amount of time and work for me to answer and what you are asking for if you came to me would cost you a significant amount of money. So I don't tend to answer these sort of questions unless I am really bored and or in the humour to.
2. If I was an aspiring strength and conditioning coach and or personal trainer these are the exact sort of questions I would answer because 1. If your work doesn't stand up to scrutiny on boards then you should either go and get some more education and training or pick another career. There are plenty of trainers everywhere just faking it but even they know it and if you want to be good at your job then you don't want to be one of those guys or girls.
3. I don't read every post here on boards but I do read the ones that I have already posted in. So if someone had a crack at helping you out I would probably ridicule and make fun of them but do it in a constructive way because I like helping people. Most of the work I do now outside of my 'day job' is consultancy work and seminars and those seminars are attended by coaches and trainers and they pay for what I tend to do here for free.
4. I post here just like everyone else....so I just post what I want and when I want and sometimes I give all of the answers and sometimes I just give some of them. The more people post and or engage in threads and discussions the more I do. Like the chin up/pull up post...I got 2 emails within 10 mins asking 'what the hell I was talking about' but people don't post it here because they are worried I'll make fun of them....that is dumb. Because what is going to happen now is that I post a little in a burst...no one engages and the great and interesting discussions that good of taken place never ever happen and all that goes on is the same cycle of posters that have been here for 6 months give new posters the same advice they were given 6 months prior and that cycle goes on and on...then every 12 months we get a....this place is dead and the forum is dying thread.
5. Now yes, in the time it has taken me to write all this I could of just fixed your program and answered your questions. But 1. you probably wouldn't appreciate it. 2. you would probably just ignore it. 3. if you did follow it you'd most likely give it a few weeks then come back and post a similar question and be told to do starting strength by someone like you that was told to do starting strength 6 months ago.
6. I am fine getting PM's and I think I answer them all and emails the same but this place I think would be a far more dynamic and interesting place if those questions were threads and everyone could see the answers and take part in the discussion.
7. No, I am not an ego maniac and no, I don't think I have the answers to everything and no, I don't think everything is all about me but I think me being involved in whatever little corner of boards or threads I am in can only be better for me being a part of it than not. I know some people disagree and I know some people that are trying to make a living in the industry wish that when I left I never came back....not even online
but I am afraid I like the Irish too much even if I don't like Ireland to stay away. So I say to those people (you know who you are) that I think you'd also be better off engaging with me in discussion because everyone here notices that none of you do (I often get emails about it) and it makes you look insecure when you don't post in threads that I post in or stop posting in them after I do.
Anyway....Padkir...the best thing you could do is to do starting strength, drink a gallon of milk a day and throw in a couple of WOD's a week to make sure you get abz.0 -
Is there so little hope for me that I've stopped a good thread in its tracks with my story? :eek:
As Will mentioned, you've asked a lot of specific questions, it's not really applicable to this thread, maybe start a new one, it'll probably get you more answers...or read the first few pages of this thread?0 -
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Long time lurker just signed up - great forum and great to benefit from all the personal experience. Hanley mentioned one thing I think very relevant (to me anyway), (1) maximal effort is key.
I've no doubt my general approach sucks but it works for me although I suspect that might be more thanks to the effort than the science & if I had a more efficient approach I may benefit more - I am most definitely a true amateur
Summary Stats
Age 40, BW 70.4kg, bodyfat approx 10%, predicted 1RM bench 91kg (have done 2x 87.5kg), predicted 1RM hex bar DL 192kg (was doing 3x5 165kg), max chins 17, max inverted row 24 (BW with chest to bar & feet on the ground)
All the above from testing with local GAA team.
Summary training approach
Mon: Chest superset with gunzzzz (I don't specifically train triceps)
Tues: 2x sessions (1) Legs superset with core and (2) Hurling training
Wed: Back and shoulders
Thurs: Hurling training
Fri: Chest
Sat: Off
Sun: Off or match
Additional to this Mon - Fri 40 - 60 mins on the bike cycling to/from work - time is dependent on the RPE, i.e. the harder I go the less time it takes
Example of training program
My programs have had to be modified as I'm managing a shoulder impingement and just getting past a hip labral tear so some of the current exercises/lifts are as a result of this - and I also tend to change the actual lifts out of pure boredom but I do try and keep to the same intent with the exercise, e.g. change BB bench to DB or Cable, etc.
Warm up for all sessions includes foam rolling relevant muscle groups where possible plus some sets of higher reps/lighter weights for the first set of lifts gradually working to the working weights.
Right now I'm training heavy weight for strength gains - I don't care about achieving any excessive hypertrophy.
Chest w/ Gunzzz (push session)
Note: Depending on how shoulder feels I'll switch between DB and BB (DB puts more pressure on the shoulder):
4x6 Bench 35kg DB or 75kg BB + 4x6 18.5kg DB Hammer Curl
3x6 Incline Bench 27.5kg DB or 60kg BB + 3x6 35kg EZ bar curl
4x6 Bent-over cable press 77kg + 4x6 50kg cable bicep curl
Legs w/ Core
Note: I was squatting and deadlifting (hex bar) but since the hip labral tear I've temporarily stopped and am doing single leg BW plus using leg press & hamstring curl
4x12 single leg 1/2 squat (unused leg is not supported and extends to the rear)
4x15 200kg leg press + 4x8 55kg ham curl
4x15 unweighted single leg calf raise
4x4 60kg clean from mid-thigh (don't have the range of motion for anything else)
4x30s front plank
2x30s side plank (per side)
4x30 hip bridge
4x4 turkish get up (I really, really hate this!)
Back w/ Shoulders (primarily a pull session)
3x15 cable external rotation
4x6 25kg DB shoulder press*
4x6 91kg cable lat pulldown w slight lean backwards to bring in upper back
4x6 70kg BB bent over row
3x8 unweighted chins wide grip
4x6 135kg seated cable row
*Stopped for now due to shoulder impingement
Chest
4x6 60kg Narrow grip bench
4x6 Bent-over cable press 77kg
Additional Notes
(1) Obviously I want to look good nekid but the primary motivation right now is for strength
(2) I do 2x chest per week because I see this as a week point in my physique
(3) My conditioning is good and anaerobically I am very fit (hurling training is with a Senior Div1 team in Dublin & I'm one of fittest in the panel)
(4) My problems with shoulder impingement come and go depending on volume of training - currently I'm happy to live with it but for how long who knows
(5) Hip labral tear was due to overuse but since I've stopped squatting and DL (also eased off cycling) I have no issue with pain or mobility
(6) My general range of motion and flexibiliy would be considered poor but unfortunately I cannot motivate myself to address this
(6) I love training and generally work to failure with every session - RPE never less than 8.5
(7) I supplement with the following (won't mention the manufacturer):
* A combination mass builder + glutamine every morning
* BCAAs every morning
* Whey after every weights session
* Gunpowder in advance of all conditioning/hurling training (made my face itchy the first time I used it thanks to overdosing....!!! :eek::o)0 -
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Horizontal Push
Bench - 1765 (60*5+80*5+90*5+100*3+105*3)
Db Bench - 1000 (25*20*2 )
2765
Horizontal Pull
inverted row - 5700 (95*20*3) unsure how to measure precisely given angle issues
Db row - 1600 (40*10*4 )
Db rear delt - 576 (12*4*12)
7876
Vertical Pull
Chins - 1425 (95*5*3 )
Shrugs - (left out)
Curls - (left out)
1425
Vertical Push
Dips – 3800 (95*4*10 )
Shoulderpress – 1155 (40*5+50*5+60*5+65*3+70*3)
4955
Quad Dom
Squat - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
2970
Hip Dom
DL - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
RDL - 4000 (100*4*10)
6970
Totals
Horizontal Push 2765
Horizontal Pull 7876
Vertical Pull 1425
Vertical Push 4955
Quad Dom 2970
Hip Dom 6970
Ok,
Effort 3 reads a bit reasonable.
It's clear that based on the totals that there is some (maybe more than some) discrepancies between the various push/pull
Dips would be chest related and I've removed shrugs and curls from that.
so what's the verdict?
I'm guessing I need to substitute some exercises for others , given that I need to balance the numbers and that these session take up all my available time (so adding something won't fix it)
If mods want to move this to the new thread , fire away.
balls - it look great till i save it
hope it read ok.
Thanks0 -
1. You've done a good job.cletus van damme wrote: »Horizontal Push
Bench - 1765 (60*5+80*5+90*5+100*3+105*3)
Db Bench - 1000 (25*20*2 )
2765
Horizontal Pull
inverted row - 5700 (95*20*3) unsure how to measure precisely given angle issues
Db row - 1600 (40*10*4 )
Db rear delt - 576 (12*4*12)
7876
Vertical Pull
Chins - 1425 (95*5*3 )
Shrugs - (left out)
Curls - (left out)
1425
Vertical Push
Dips – 3800 (95*4*10 )
Shoulderpress – 1155 (40*5+50*5+60*5+65*3+70*3)
4955
Quad Dom
Squat - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
2970
Hip Dom
DL - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
RDL - 4000 (100*4*10)
6970
Totals
Horizontal Push 2765
Horizontal Pull 7876
Vertical Pull 1425
Vertical Push 4955
Quad Dom 2970
Hip Dom 6970
Ok,
Effort 3 reads a bit reasonable.
It's clear that based on the totals that there is some (maybe more than some) discrepancies between the various push/pull
Dips would be chest related and I've removed shrugs and curls from that.
so what's the verdict?
I'm guessing I need to substitute some exercises for others , given that I need to balance the numbers and that these session take up all my available time (so adding something won't fix it)
If mods want to move this to the new thread , fire away.
balls - it look great till i save it
hope it read ok.
Thanks
2. You can halve the inverted row number...as with push ups the loading isn't BW and like push ups the 'actual' loading is dependent on body angle and hand position...just to make it easy and because it is usually not too far off...I just halve BW to calculate the resistance.
3. Looking at the DB press I am assuming you are doing 25's for 20 reps for 2 sets rather than 12.5kg a hand so that volume should be doubled. Correct me if I am wrong?
4. With the rear delt work again I am going to assume you are using 12kg a hand so that needs to be doubled.
So from what I see your pushing volume is...1765+2000+3800+1155 = 8720kg
Your pulling volume is 2850+1600+1150+1425=7025kg
The quad verus hip volumes are 3000kg to 7000kg.
I will tell you what I think...easiest bit first...the quad to hip ratio isn't too far off what I look for myself...I usually say 1:2 ratio. I have a lot of reasons for that which I won't go into now...but thats what I look for.
Now your pushing to pulling ration is 1:0.8. When I first looked at it I actually thought it was about 1:1 but it isn't even that. I don't go around making exact calculations when I am writing programs but my push to pull ratio is pretty much always 1:1.5 or more. For me personally...the programs I do myself are closer to 1:2 pushing to pulling. Again there are a million reasons for this but suffice to say 1. I've not had a injury that was 'training' related in a long, long, long time. 2. I am in my 40's and still fighting all day at work and then fighting in my spare time and my body handles it all without a bother. 3. Look at the total mass of the muscles involved in pushing and pulling. Think about what constitutes appropriate loading and volume in relation to the mass differential between the two muscle groups.
In short...your program is pretty good and no need to stress about it...add some more pulling volume...some more pull ups/chin up and you'd probably find all your numbers improving while bulletproofing yourself against and instance of chronic injury in the future.0 -
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Will Heffernan wrote: »I am not anti 'Starting Strength' and the only reason I use it is it is one of the many blanket responses people give here no matter what anyone posts as a starting point...i.e I am a fat old male who's been messing around in the gym for a while...what should I do...answer...try starting strength
I've had a few people from this very board come to me having done starting strength...or at least that's what they thought they were doing. What they were actually doing was quarter squatting and some sort of squat/deadlift hybrid that was potentially going to cause more problems further down the line...so we can probably throw half decent technique into the mix for a 'perfect programme'.Will Heffernan wrote: »There is no PERFECT program there is only the perfect program for you and even then it won't be perfect...it can always be improved...and problems can always be corrected. The issue with programming is that the human body is adaptive by nature...it adapts and to continue to get it to adapt you need to alter the stimulus in some way...this could be as simple as doing an extra set...or doing a set less but doing it heavier...taking less recovery between sets and increasing the density of your training...or taking more recovery and increasing the intensity of each set....on and on it goes. Every program is only 'perfect' for a time and that time is a lot smaller a window than most people realise.
I think that's a pretty good answer, I think there might be a lot of people here waiting for the 'perfect routine' to hop straight into, a little like those who want the perfect nutrition plan. I think you could easily read the first part of the paragraph above and substitute the word 'nutrition' in place of 'program'.Will Heffernan wrote: »This is a huge area...I was talking to someone about marketing today...about how being good at marketing is as important as being good at coaching...maybe even more important...and what cmyk has posted here is an illustration of why. It doesn't matter how good a coach anyone is if they don't have people to coach....it doesn't matter how good their information is if no one reads it or sees it. What has a bigger impact on health and fitness....being an awesome coach with 30 elite athletes who get the best coaching or being an average coach with decent information who is good at marketing themselves and writes a book or has a manual or a website that encourages 30,000 people to take up exercise and more importantly to stick at it?
I'm torn on this one to be honest, coming originally from a marketing background I'm pretty poor at it. Everyday you see new products, or even worse, the exact same product re-branded and sold on, so part of me sees what you're saying and the other part of me sees people simply just trying to make more money...I'm ok with that too, I'd also like to make more money, but I just question some of the motivations behind some of them.
To the general public its hard to differentiate good products from bad, just like forum posts, and why people seem to just spin their wheels. Then you've magazines with contradictory articles every issue and/or product advert-orials.Will Heffernan wrote: »This is a 'perfect' program...the one that keeps you motivated enough to do the next session.
Excellent, thread closed?Will Heffernan wrote: »I've just realised that reading this that some people might think that I am either 100% agree with cmyk or 100% disagreeing with him or agreeing and disagreeing simultaneously
I'll run with agreeing.Will Heffernan wrote: »...that or that I am talking to him like he's a genius or a moron.
I'll run with genius.Will Heffernan wrote: »I am not doing any of the above
Sh1t.Will Heffernan wrote: »If something doesn't make sense...ask...and I will clarify. I am always trying to write as fast as I can and shorthand as much as possible but am also happy to expand or clarify.
Would it help to summise, with bullet points some of the pertinent points so far and insert them into the end of the first post in case there are people who don't feel like reading every page...of which I'm sure there'll be plenty.0 -
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Let's over reach and say that good technique is a must for a perfect program.I've had a few people from this very board come to me having done starting strength...or at least that's what they thought they were doing. What they were actually doing was quarter squatting and some sort of squat/deadlift hybrid that was potentially going to cause more problems further down the line...so we can probably throw half decent technique into the mix for a 'perfect programme'.
Agreed. I've had an online client who have paid me for consultations and advice over a 4 month period who actually did nothing...I am giving you the short version of the story but what essentially happen is that he got his program, sent me questions, I sent him answers and that continued for 4 months....he wanted to make sure his program was PERFECT before he did anything....so while he was awaiting perfection he did absolutely no training.I think that's a pretty good answer, I think there might be a lot of people here waiting for the 'perfect routine' to hop straight into, a little like those who want the perfect nutrition plan. I think you could easily read the first part of the paragraph above and substitute the word 'nutrition' in place of 'program'.
Even more reason why good trainers need to do good marketing and sales work. Even if it makes you feel dirty and unwholesomeI'm torn on this one to be honest, coming originally from a marketing background I'm pretty poor at it. Everyday you see new products, or even worse, the exact same product re-branded and sold on, so part of me sees what you're saying and the other part of me sees people simply just trying to make more money...I'm ok with that too, I'd also like to make more money, but I just question some of the motivations behind some of them.
To the general public its hard to differentiate good products from bad, just like forum posts, and why people seem to just spin their wheels. Then you've magazines with contradictory articles every issue and/or product advert-orials.
Someone should do that and then I will gather them all up and stick them in the first post as you suggested.Would it help to summise, with bullet points some of the pertinent points so far and insert them into the end of the first post in case there are people who don't feel like reading every page...of which I'm sure there'll be plenty.0 -
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