Songwriterdome: Springsteen Vs Waits

Cicero · 25-09-2010 10:45pm

thenakedanddead wrote: »

Interesting. The people who have commented on this thread seem to be largely Waits fan, yet Bruce is in the lead.

Bruce definitely has more followers....is better live in concert...is better well known........so yes, he'll probably score more points on this thread....but....

..Waits is the better artist...:p

CDfm · 25-09-2010 11:28pm

Cicero wrote: »

..Waits is the better artist...:p

"Porn in the USA" had a single "Dancing in the Dark" had Booce shaking his booty in a pair of Levi jeans a la "Dirty Dancing". Cute.

The E-Street Band are very talented and Roy Bittan the piano player was used by Jim Steinman on "Bat Out of Hell" so the E Street guys were stars and session musicians in their own right. So you had huge production budgets too.

Now - Tom Waits has never been a pretty boy and really is a solo artist.

JerryHandbag · 25-09-2010 11:36pm

Tom Waits is a pretty good actor too, saw him in The Book of Eli and a few others, cmon Brucie....Hollywood awaits!

Cicero · 25-09-2010 11:48pm

..I'm enjoying this thread more and more (and changing my thinking somewhat) because it does focus your mind on why you think one artist is better than the other- no matter what the pairing....
I think Waits wins because of his diversification in musical terms...from piano and strings to blues, to vaudeville/theater style... a man that can scream and still make music that sells albums is a man to be respected...

CDfm · 26-09-2010 12:08am

vs

26-09-2010 1:13am

CDfm wrote: »

PICTURES

And your point is???

I believe we're talking about the music...

CDfm · 26-09-2010 1:49am

Papa Smut wrote: »

And your point is???

I believe we're talking about the music...

I think that Bruces best selling work positioned him as a rocker and don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with it and he does it well. He had a great organisation behind him. I am not a fan but of its genre it is the business.

The pictures are just to illustrate the point.Waits is a completely different genre and has never been pop music or MTV. From both of their fields they are the best at what they do.

Mars Bar · 26-09-2010 2:06am

CDfm wrote: »

"Porn in the USA" had a single "Dancing in the Dark" had Booce shaking his booty in a pair of Levi jeans a la "Dirty Dancing". Cute.

The E-Street Band are very talented and Roy Bittan the piano player was used by Jim Steinman on "Bat Out of Hell" so the E Street guys were stars and session musicians in their own right. So you had huge production budgets too.

Now - Tom Waits has never been a pretty boy and really is a solo artist.

Max Weinberg also did drums on BOH...

eamon234 · 26-09-2010 2:09am

Put it this way, I've never heard Tom Waits cover a Springsteen song. 'Nuff Said.

thenakedanddead · 26-09-2010 2:59pm

well would ya look at it. After what seemed like a close, albeit firm victory from Bruce, Waits is just one behind.

JerryHandbag · 26-09-2010 3:06pm

I think the Bruce critics should listen to Nebraska and then Devils And Dust, stadium crowd-pleasing rock it definitely is not. 2 outstanding albums separated by about 25 years.

The Swordsman · 26-09-2010 4:37pm

CDfm wrote: »

I think that Bruces best selling work positioned him as a rocker and don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with it and he does it well. He had a great organisation behind him. I am not a fan but of its genre it is the business.

The pictures are just to illustrate the point.Waits is a completely different genre and has never been pop music or MTV. From both of their fields they are the best at what they do.

You're still not getting it.

The point is we're supposed to be comparing them as songwriters, not whether one is pop or has better album covers or is prettier. The fact that they're from different genres (though I'm not sure what so called genres either easily would fit in to- perhaps you could fill me in - try and base Bruce's on more than his biggest selling album) is also irrelevant.

The Swordsman · 26-09-2010 4:43pm

eamon234 wrote: »

Put it this way, I've never heard Tom Waits cover a Springsteen song. 'Nuff Said.

thenakedanddead · 26-09-2010 4:43pm

About two minutes left - talk about closure, not.

Cicero suggested a Lennon vs Dylan contest (hope they don't mind me disclosing this information) which I think could be rather interesting - oh - and extremely polarizing.

The Swordsman · 26-09-2010 4:52pm

When is the replay???

thenakedanddead · 26-09-2010 4:53pm

The Swordsman wrote: »

When is the replay???

Ya mean we should extend discussion for closure?

Lets have a five-poster off whereby the winner is inferred after five posts

ok, I'm saying Bruce, but with regret as I think Waits is a fine artist.

The Swordsman · 26-09-2010 5:03pm

thenakedanddead wrote: »

Ya mean we should extend discussion for closure?

Lets have a five-poster off whereby the winner is inferred after five posts

ok, I'm saying Bruce, but with regret as I think Waits is a fine artist.

Like a penalty shootout.

Bruce for me, too (though Tom is great).

Mars Bar · 26-09-2010 5:25pm

Bruce for me too!

thenakedanddead · 26-09-2010 5:36pm

And the winner is...

Bruce Springsteen

CDfm · 26-09-2010 6:31pm

The Swordsman wrote: »

You're still not getting it.

The point is we're supposed to be comparing them as songwriters, not whether one is pop or has better album covers or is prettier.

Its not about album covers but Bruce has thread the pop route and Waits has not.

If you like your story sings clean and nostalgic Bruce will be your boy.

I am not saying Bruce is less of a songwriter musician or lyricist but his (Waits) lyrics are seedier which I like and Waits musical template is wider and more dramatic, jazz, r & b, trad, musical theatre & music hall, and his voice more distinctive than Bruce.

Springsteen is always more at home with rock n'roll and thats not a bad thing. Springsteen's first album was more out there and weird lyrically. Waits was more accomplished and having mastered his craft as a balladier became more experimental.

Thats not saying either is better or worse - but Springsteens output could have been covered by a competant showband. Waits on the other hand would fit in there with Agnes Burnell on any night.

The fact that they're from different genres (though I'm not sure what so called genres either easily would fit in to- perhaps you could fill me in - try and base Bruce's on more than his biggest selling album) is also irrelevant.

Genre - Bruce is rock n'roll maybe not Bryan Adams or Jon Bon Jovi but John Mellencamp. Waits - jazz bars r & b and the Alabama Song.

Amazotheamazing · 26-09-2010 8:53pm

CDfm wrote: »

Its not about album covers but Bruce has thread the pop route and Waits has not.

If you like your story sings clean and nostalgic Bruce will be your boy.

I am not saying Bruce is less of a songwriter musician or lyricist but his (Waits) lyrics are seedier which I like and Waits musical template is wider and more dramatic, jazz, r & b, trad, musical theatre & music hall, and his voice more distinctive than Bruce.

Springsteen is always more at home with rock n'roll and thats not a bad thing. Springsteen's first album was more out there and weird lyrically. Waits was more accomplished and having mastered his craft as a balladier became more experimental.

Thats not saying either is better or worse - but Springsteens output could have been covered by a competant showband. Waits on the other hand would fit in there with Agnes Burnell on any night.

Genre - Bruce is rock n'roll maybe not Bryan Adams or Jon Bon Jovi but John Mellencamp. Waits - jazz bars r & b and the Alabama Song.

Waits has to be more "out there" because he's not capable of describing the relationship between a father and a son, for example, as well as Springsteen can. If you look at Springsteen's songs like I'm on fire or Hungry Heart, they are so sparse lyrically but so dense and deep emotionally, it's an incredible economy of words that very few can manage. Waits is incredible at describing particular scenes, but Springsteen is far, far better at describing feelings or emotion.

Waits has never made an album as brutally honest as Tunnel of Love or Darkness on the Edge of Town, in fact, he's possibly not even capable of doing so.

Get away from the labels like Rock and Roll or Jazz or whatever, and listen to what each writer is telling you, Bruce is telling you about what it is to be human, Waits is standing around describing a red light district.

CDfm · 26-09-2010 9:33pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Waits has never made an album as brutally honest as Tunnel of Love or Darkness on the Edge of Town, in fact, he's possibly not even capable of doing so.

Get away from the labels like Rock and Roll or Jazz or whatever, and listen to what each writer is telling you, Bruce is telling you about what it is to be human, Waits is standing around describing a red light district.

I dont get that emotional depth from Springsteen and if its there I cant feel it.

Cicero · 26-09-2010 10:05pm

I've just set up the new Music Battle Dome on this forum- thanks to the mods for permission and to "thenakedanddead" for the idea.

Very close battle in the end between these two- was surprised how close it was.

Amazotheamazing · 26-09-2010 10:15pm

CDfm wrote: »

I dont get that emotional depth from Springsteen and if its there I cant feel it.

Really? I think some songs have lost their impact due to being overplayed (say the River and Born in the USA) but songs like Independence Day or Adam Raised a Cain, Factory, The Darkness of the Edge of Town, My Hometown etc still pack a massive punch.

People who dismiss him as simply a pop or rock and roll artist are people who've either only heard him on the radio or only heard the "best of" albums and as such, aren't coming from an educated point of view about his music.

Honestly, very few songwriters has written as well about the relationships between people as Springsteen does. Most songwriters tend to get mawkish or overly sentimental whereas Springsteen can place a line like "you ain't a beauty but hey you're alright" and make it seem not only real but romantic.

Tom Waits is an incredible lyricist too, he can conjure vivid imaginary with tiny detail but can he really explain why a father and son need to fight?

CDfm · 26-09-2010 11:47pm

I dont know really, I like Waits as much for the rough edge and the tonal quality of his songs. For me -Springsteen is the rustbucket and I associate him with an era.

Shy_Dave! · 28-09-2010 1:58pm

I don't understand people saying they prefer an artist because they've have not 'done pop' or 'gone mainstream' and the like - is it a dirty thing now? It sounds almost elitist.
What's wrong with the artist who is able to make fantastic, emotive, deep lyrics/music while also popular (and fupping brilliant to sing a long to in most cases I must add

) ?
Not trying to start a fight, I've just never understood it.

Cicero · 28-09-2010 8:54pm

Shy_Dave! wrote: »

I don't understand people saying they prefer an artist because they've have not 'done pop' or 'gone mainstream' and the like - is it a dirty thing now? It sounds almost elitist.
What's wrong with the artist who is able to make fantastic, emotive, deep lyrics/music while also popular (and fupping brilliant to sing a long to in most cases I must add ) ?
Not trying to start a fight, I've just never understood it.

***starts fight***:D

..dunno, probably stems from being moody teenagers wanting to be into something other than "what every one else listens to"- not sure if that applies as much today, but it certainly did apply in the days of the 70s/80s- regardless of the genre of music you listened to- I had friends into thrash metal- but they frowned on some of those bands when they went (as they percieved it), more mainstream like Iron Maiden- so here's an example of a rather niche group of music lovers, going even more niche within a particular genre or category of music...maybe it's that "more mainstream" means your then associated with people you don't want to be associated with, or maybe it's just that the later years afforts of whatever band, did nothing for them.....for many in the 70s'/80s, the music you listened to was a huge part of defining you as a person...Ska, Punk, Rocker, heavy metal, mod, prog rock, cure head, pop etc- they all had their own style, way of thinking, acting etc-

Songwriterdome: Springsteen Vs Waits

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