Ahern to Use Undercover Kids

flash1080

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yes - what happens now is that shops get reported for selling to underage kids. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with, is that Gardai will now be actively recruiting children & using them to aid them in sting operations, which in my opinion is a step too far.

They'll even be using kids as young as 15 - kids not even old enough to legally work.

You can legally work at 15.

starbelgrade wrote: »

Dermot Ahern, Minister for Justice, is set to use kids from 15-17 in sting operations next month by sending them into licenced premises to try and buy alcohol.

This is in a effort to .... wait for it... crack down on kids buying alcohol.

Nice one Dermot - you really have proven this time, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are a complete & utter moron.

Link; http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0921/breaking62.html

What's the problem?

humanji

Is this not a case of entrapment?

I kind of see it as cracking down on drink drivers by giving drink to drivers, and then arresting them.

Red Hand

humanji wrote: »

Is this not a case of entrapment?

First thing I thought of when I read the op.

Earthhorse

starbelgrade wrote: »

So is the death penalty.

How can you compare this to the death penalty while smiling wryly?

Guy:Incognito

round tower huntsman wrote: »

well done ff minister:rolleyes: the country is awash with drugs and scumbags. heroin's spreading like a plague to rural towns from the cities and ahern wahts to use cops to stop kids getting their hands on some blue wicked:mad:
ffs, fair enough underage drinking might be a problem but if kids are underage to drink then they're the parents problem.

At what level of law should the Gardai start not bothering with? Maybe put every Grda resource in to the single worst law that is broken and ignore everything else?

Earthhorse

humanji wrote: »

Is this not a case of entrapment?

I kind of see it as cracking down on drink drivers by giving drink to drivers, and then arresting them.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

First thing I thought of when I read the op.

Nope.

Per Wikipedia: In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

humanji

Stekelly wrote: »

At what level of law should the Gardai start not bothering with? Maybe put every Grda resource in to the single worst law that is broken and ignore everything else?

It works for Chief Wiggum.

humanji

Earthhorse wrote: »

Nope.

Per Wikipedia: In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

Would that not depend on what is said by the teen then? If they persuaded the shopkeeper then would that be a case of entrapment, since he was coherced into doing it?

Red Hand

humanji wrote: »

Would that not depend on what is said by the teen then? If they persuaded the shopkeeper then would that be a case of entrapment, since he was coherced into doing it?

Or what if they hired kids that genuinely look 18 or over?

humanji

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Or what if they hired kids that genuinely look 18 or over?

Of if they dressed midgets as children. There's a whole legal minefield we're entering into here!

TheZohanS

Ahern to Use Undercover Kids

First thing I thought of when I read the op.

First thing I thought of was that Aherne was going to clean up the church.

Earthhorse

I imagine as long as the teen doesn't go to lengths outside of what a normal teenager goes to to acquire the alcohol it wouldn't be regarded as entrapment. How exactly that works in law, I don't know. So far as I know this practise is nothing new in any event so one assumes it's effective at some level or they wouldn't continue with it.

round tower huntsman

Stekelly wrote: »

At what level of law should the Gardai start not bothering with? Maybe put every Grda resource in to the single worst law that is broken and ignore everything else?

i'd rather see more cops chasing down rogue bankers and drug dealing gangsters then kids out on the knacker. moneys tight and all law enforcement spending will be down at next budget, this is not money well spent imo.

Bogger77

round tower huntsman wrote: »

i'd rather see more cops chasing down rogue bankers and drug dealing gangsters then kids out on the knacker. moneys tight and all law enforcement spending will be down at next budget, this is not money well spent imo.

yawn
Is there not a law, like Godwin's where people inevitably mention rogue bankers regardless of the thread subject?

round tower huntsman

listen cos of the bankers and ff all we have left is drink,the kids included. bacardi breezers is allour kids have to look forward too. leave em alone for gods sake.

mickdw

Im pretty sure that this use of kids in secretly buying alcohol in written into the intoxicating liqueur act of 2008. Again from memory, I think it allows for gardai to ask an underage child with permission from parent to carry out the task.
Good idea IMO

round tower huntsman

wonder will the cops use their own kids??:rolleyes:

starbelgrade

Was there something on Joe Duffy about underage drinking recently?

It would explain a lot.

William Powell

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Or what if they hired kids that genuinely look 18 or over?

In the UK they don't and can't see why it would be different here. afaik (as they always say I know someone who just happens to work in Trading Standards in the UK and does this particular job) they try and use kids that look a lot younger than they really are so there is no argument when it gets to court.

@round tower huntsman - They wouldn't use the gards own kids as that might lead to reprisals. Sounds easy but its not a nice job.

Dennis the Stone

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0921/testpurchasingguidelines.pdf

If at any stage something goes wrong during the operation, notify the Gardaí and the operation will be stopped immediately.

At that stage the undercover garda pulls out his piece and starts pistol whipping the publican.

IvySlayer

It's a good idea, but hardly new.

I saw it on TV before. They put cameras on 16 year olds and sent to them to buy alcohol/cigarettes/over 18 games and films. Named and shamed the shops.

limklad

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

The kids aren't breaking the law at all.

Yes they are

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/criminal-law/criminal-offences/alcohol_and_the_law
Under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts, it is an offence to sell alcohol to anyone under the age of 18

If you are under 18, you cannot legally buy alcohol. Also you cannot drink it unless you are in a private residence and have permission from your parents. It is also an offence to pretend that you are over 18 in order to buy or drink alcohol. If you are found guilty of these offences, you can be fined up to €63.50 on summary conviction in a District Court.
Children

Children (anyone under the age of 18) are only allowed in licensed premises if they are with a parent or guardian, but this provision carries certain restrictions. For example if accompanied by a parent/guardian, the child may remain on the premises between the hours of 10:30am - 9pm (10pm May to September) (unless the licence holder feels this is injurious to the child's health, safety and welfare). Children aged between 15-17 years may remain on the premises after 9pm where they are attending a private function at which a substantial meal is served. All licensed premises must display a sign to this effect in a prominent place at all time and failure to do so can result in a fine of up to €25.40 for a first offence and €63.50 for a second and all subsequent offences.
If the licence holder is found guilty of allowing unsupervised children in his or her premises, a fine of up to €127 can be imposed on summary conviction in a District Court for a first offence. The fine is increased to €317.50 for a second and any subsequent conviction. Parents and guardians can also be guilty of an offence under the Act if their children are found to be in licensed premises without supervision. If the parent or guardian cannot prove that the child was there without his or her knowledge or permission, he or she can be fined up to 300 euro on summary conviction.


Off-licences

Off-licence sales of alcohol is only permitted between the hours of 10.30 am and 10.00 pm on weekdays and 12.30 pm to 10.00 pm on Sundays.
It is illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to be in an off-licence, unless he or she is with a parent or guardian and all off-licences must display a sign to this effect.

RMD

starbelgrade wrote: »

Dermot Ahern, Minister for Justice, is set to use kids from 15-17 in sting operations next month by sending them into licenced premises to try and buy alcohol.

This is in a effort to .... wait for it... crack down on kids buying alcohol.

Nice one Dermot - you really have proven this time, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are a complete & utter moron.

Link; http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0921/breaking62.html

No point in making someone out to be stupid if you're not going to properly read the article yourself.

The young people to be used in the latest operations will volunteer and can only take part in the “test purchase” investigations with their parents’ consent.

At least one undercover garda will watch the young person attempting to purchase the alcohol on the targeted licenced premises. If the young person is sold drink the undercover garda will give evidence in court of having witnessed the illegal sale.

Not stupid in the slightest, essentially the only way to prove an off-license sold the drink to an underage person, as it has to be seen by a Garda to be prosecuted.

Guy:Incognito

round tower huntsman wrote: »

listen cos of the bankers and ff all we have left is drink,the kids included. bacardi breezers is allour kids have to look forward too. leave em alone for gods sake.

Just as well you were'nt aroudn in the md 80's , you'd have thrown yourself off a bridge.

Jesus god help people in this country if they ever encounter real suffering.

Dennis the Stone

limklad wrote: »

Yes they are

They're not pretending to be over 18, they are instructed not to lie about their age. If the publican asks what age they are, they have to answer truthfully.

b) The test purchaser must be advised not to mislead, or attempt to mislead, any person regarding their age. The test purchaser must answer any questions about their age truthfully;
c) The test purchaser should not have any proof-of-age documents with them when undertaking test purchasing operations. If asked for proof of age, the test purchaser should reply “I don’t have any”;

Owwmykneecap

messymess wrote: »

The words, juvenile court and community service, come to mind!

Why that's a terrible idea:

Rachel Hoffman.

More here.

Augmerson

Surely using children like this is illegal? I think it's wrong.

Euro_Kraut

Augmerson wrote: »

Surely using children like this is illegal?

Apparently not. In fairness the Garda Commisioner and the Dept of Justice tend to have a good handle on the old 'what legal and what isn't' thing

I think it's wrong.

Why?

Owwmykneecap

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Apparently not. In fairness the Garda Commisioner and the Dept of Justice tend to have a good handle on the old 'what legal and what isn't' thing



Why?

I'd say Constitutional lawers have a far better grasp.

Putting children, otherwise known as minors, in potential harms way is wrong. end of.

Augmerson

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Apparently not. In fairness the Garda Commisioner and the Dept of Justice tend to have a good handle on the old 'what legal and what isn't' thing



Why?

Your using children as spies, where does it end?