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Ahern to Use Undercover Kids

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135

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    #62
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Owwmykneecap wrote: »
    I'd say Constitutional lawers have a far better grasp.

    Putting children, otherwise known as minors, in potential harms way is wrong. end of.

    Are you serious?

    What's harmful about a 16 year old walking into an off-license and trying to buy alcohol?


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    #63
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    Are you serious?

    What's harmful about a 16 year old walking into an off-license and trying to buy alcohol?

    I know a 15 year old who walked into a bar.

    Knocked him clean out.


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    #64
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    Augmerson wrote: »
    Surely using children like this is illegal? I think it's wrong.

    There getting volunteers, so it's hardly using kids. Most people drank underage and I personally don't have a problem with it but Ahern can hardly be called stupid for using this method to catch the sellers.

    Whats stupid about it, it seems that no matter what he'd do someone would look for a way to criticise it anyway, more and more moaney bastards about these days


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    #65
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    I know a 15 year old who walked into a bar.

    Knocked him clean out.

    *shakes fist*

    :mad:


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    #66
    ascanbe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    I believe quite a number of Fianna Fail TD's are publicans as are numerous Town and County Councilors; i wonder if their pubs/off-licences will be conveniently ignored.
    Could business competitors of theres caught under this proposal not claim that there is a conflict of interest at play here and that they are victims of entrapment?


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    #67
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    Owwmykneecap wrote: »
    Putting children, otherwise known as minors, in potential harms way is wrong. end of.

    How are they in harms way? They walk into a shop, put 6 corona on the counter and hand over the money, all while being watched by a gard. Is the shopkeeper going to knock them out with a right hook?
    Honestly, i'd like to hear this one, where's the potential harm?


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    #68
    Augmerson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭Augmerson


    colly10 wrote: »
    There getting volunteers, so it's hardly using kids. Most people drank underage and I personally don't have a problem with it but Ahern can hardly be called stupid for using this method to catch the sellers.

    Whats stupid about it, it seems that no matter what he'd do someone would look for a way to criticise it anyway, more and more moaney bastards about these days

    We could also use children as volunteers to out paedophiles in the community. The kids would be volunteering.


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    #69
    Owwmykneecap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭Owwmykneecap


    colly10 wrote: »
    There getting volunteers, so it's hardly using kids. Most people drank underage and I personally don't have a problem with it but Ahern can hardly be called stupid for using this method to catch the sellers.

    Whats stupid about it, it seems that no matter what he'd do someone would look for a way to criticise it anyway, more and more moaney bastards about these days


    Volunteer or not it is using kids.

    You mean forcing. and I referenced the coercion of small time crims in my post about rachel hoffman.

    If a 16 year old got some pub closed down, destroyed a business and all that goes with it, (perhaps even end a marriage!)

    You don't think that some mad **** out there might resent that?

    Nah they'll be "it's a fair cop gov'ner." ...


    Being the guy who got a pub closed down could haunt a person for years, regardless of the legality of it, people don't forget scabs and they don't forget rats.

    That's a lot to potentially put on a 15 year old's shoulders.



    Whatever about using adults, old enough legally and hopefully mentally to account for their decisions using children strikes me as low.


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    #70
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Augmerson wrote: »
    We could also use children as volunteers to out paedophiles in the community. The kids would be volunteering.

    No we couldn't.

    How is a teenager attempting to buy alcohol any different/any more dangerous to buying a packet of crisps?


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    #71
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    colly10 wrote: »
    Whats stupid about it, it seems that no matter what he'd do someone would look for a way to criticise it anyway, more and more moaney bastards about these days

    In fairness, this is Dermot Ahern we're talking about.

    Nearly everything he has done in his recent political life could be criticised, with good reason, including his adding the crime of blasphemy to the statute books & the balls-up which is the Civil Partnership Bill 2009.

    So forgive me if I take his latest forray with a large pinch of cynycism.


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    #72
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    Augmerson wrote: »
    We could also use children as volunteers to out paedophiles in the community. The kids would be volunteering.

    Yes but the difference there would be that that would be harming the child. Paying for a few bottles while being watched by an undercover gard isn't.

    So theres actually no likeness between the 2 situations


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    #73
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Owwmykneecap wrote: »
    Volunteer or not it is using kids.

    You mean forcing. and I referenced the coercion of small time crims in my post about rachel hoffman.

    If a 16 year old got some pub closed down, destroyed a business and all that goes with it, (perhaps even end a marriage!)

    You don't think that some mad **** out there might resent that?

    Nah they'll be "it's a fair cop gov'ner." ...


    Being the guy who got a pub closed down could haunt a person for years, regardless of the legality of it, people don't forget scabs and they don't forget rats.

    That's a lot to potentially put on a 15 year old's shoulders.



    Whatever about using adults, old enough legally and hopefully mentally to account for their decisions using children strikes me as low.

    Any one who sells alcohol to someone who is 15 is a scumbag.

    I remember being 15, I thought I was invincible. They're not babies as you seem to think they are.


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    #74
    Owwmykneecap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭Owwmykneecap


    Nor are they police officers as you seem to think they are.
    I remember being 15, I thought I was invincible.

    A great reason against the plans thanks.

    So why don't you and your kind let them get back to fingering each other and let them be.


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    #75
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    In fairness, this is Dermot Ahern we're talking about.

    Nearly everything he has done in his recent political life could be criticised, with good reason ...
    So forgive me if I take his latest forray with a large pinch of cynycism.

    True, doesn't mean that everything he says is a bad idea just because he says it. People hear the idea and say it's stupid without actually thinking about it, that to me is stupid


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    #76
    Vladidim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Vladidim


    What next? Maybe send a naked woman down the street at 2am to identify any would be rapists?


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    #77
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Owwmykneecap wrote: »
    Nor are they police officers as you seem to think they are.

    So why don't you and your kind let them get back to fingering each other and let them be.

    Have you been on the alcohol?

    Please answer my question. In Tescos/Superquinn/Spar and dozens of other shops you can buy alcohol. How is it any different to buying a packet of crisps? What is the exact danger?


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    #78
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    colly10 wrote: »
    True, doesn't mean that everything he says is a bad idea just because he says it. People hear the idea and say it's stupid without actually thinking about it, that to me is stupid

    There are also people who heard the idea, thought about it & decided it wasn't a good idea.

    And I'm sure there were also plenty of people who heard the idea, didn't question it & thought it was a good idea.

    I don't really see what your point is, beyond criticising anybody who has dared dissent & express an opinion.


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    #79
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Vladidim wrote: »
    What next? Maybe send a naked woman down the street at 2am to identify any would be rapists?

    Nice.


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    #80
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    ascanbe wrote: »
    I believe quite a number of Fianna Fail TD's are publicans as are numerous Town and County Councilors; i wonder if their pubs/off-licences will be conveniently ignored.
    Could business competitors of theres caught under this proposal not claim that there is a conflict of interest at play here and that they are victims of entrapment?

    Ye they could, they would have to prove it though. They would actually have to be ignoring these places before they would have any claim though.
    They havn't even started doing this yet so it's a bit early to be thinking about the FF party taking out the rival pubs yet or how the rival pubs will deal with it if it ever happens


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    #81
    Owwmykneecap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭Owwmykneecap


    Have you been on the alcohol?

    Please answer my question. In Tescos/Superquinn/Spar and dozens of other shops you can buy alcohol. How is it any different to buying a packet of crisps? What is the exact danger?

    How about in Honest Barry's offie?

    Honest Barry has mounting gambling debts and his marriage in trouble. No wonder he needs the cocaine to feel even remotely alive and the escorts to feel a brief connection to another human, the stress of running his crumbling business is enough, but if he can keep the place ticking over for the time being he might be able to keep the bank off his back...


    In walks Colly10, Mr. Invincible, a local lad Barry knows well......



    Tune in next week to find out invincibility really is a trait teens get, like spots and constant erections.


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    #82
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    Vladidim wrote: »
    What next? Maybe send a naked woman down the street at 2am to identify any would be rapists?

    Again not the same, it "harms" others having to see her naked (In reality it doesn't but that's why they can't do it - did ye hear the recent case against Britany Spears where the bodyguard was mentally scared or whatever cause she exposed herself to him)

    You also can't rule out a kid being on the street for whatever reason

    You also can't rule out her being assaulted before the gard can actually reach her


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    #83
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Owwmykneecap wrote: »
    How about in Honest Barry's offie?

    Honest Barry has mounting gambling debts and his marriage in trouble. No wonder he needs the cocaine to feel even remotely alive and the escorts to feel a brief connection to another human, the stress of running his crumbling business is enough, but if he can keep the place ticking over for the time being he might be able to keep the bank off his back...


    In walks Colly10, Mr. Invincible, a local lad Barry knows well......



    Tune in next week to find out invincibility really is a trait teens get, like spots and constant erections.

    I don't think the Gardaí are stupid enough to use kids who live near the target.

    I imagine there's plenty of kids every day who attempt to buy alcohol. Now, these teens will be sent in, and if they manage to buy some despite being underage, they'll leave quietly, return home (which will me miles away) and then the Gardaí move in and shut down/fine the business.

    No danger to the teens whatsoever.


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    #84
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    I don't really see what your point is, beyond criticising anybody who has dared dissent & express an opinion.

    We'll the reason I think it's a good opinion is that it will catch pubs/shops etc.. who break the law

    Now, some are saying it's a terrible idea, fair enough, i'm just asking them to explain this reasoning and obviously if I don't think it stacks up and I can give a reason then i'm going to give it.

    It's not like I can't be convinced that it's a bad idea, I just thought that with so many critical of the idea someone could give an argument that you could look at and say .... actually ye, that makes sense, so far though we getting stuff about handing kids to pedo's and naked women walking down the street at 2am though


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    #85
    ascanbe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    colly10 wrote: »
    Ye they could, they would have to prove it though. They would actually have to be ignoring these places before they would have any claim though.
    They havn't even started doing this yet so it's a bit early to be thinking about the FF party taking out the rival pubs yet or how the rival pubs will deal with it if it ever happens

    Yeah. Does make you wonder, though. If it does go ahead it will have to be very clear that it's being run independent from political interference.
    Can't see many of the FF publicans being all that happy with this proposal if they might end up a target of it.
    There are also a number of problems that could crop-up from the use of kids in this. The whole thing doesn't seem to be particularly well thought through.
    No surprise there, i suppose.


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    #86
    colly10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭colly10


    ascanbe wrote: »
    Yeah. Does make you wonder, though. If it does go ahead it will have to be very clear that it's being run independent from political interference.
    Can't see many of the FF publicans being all that happy with this proposal if they might end up a target of it.
    There are also a number of problems that could crop-up from the use of kids in this. The whole thing doesn't seem to be particularly well thought through.
    No surprise there, i suppose.

    Ye, tbh I wouldn't really trust them not to be cherry picking. Id say that unless it was run by some independent group, there'd be no way there mates would be spot checked, at least not without warning


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    #87
    cleremy jarkson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭cleremy jarkson


    snyper wrote: »
    How does this make him a moron?

    Gardai send in Youths, to attempt to buy drink, and if successful - the gardai will take action.

    Doesnt seem very stupid to me

    Exactly. I don't understand how you think this is a bad idea OP. In fact, I think it's an unusually practical idea by a minister. :confused:

    The off-licence owners are actually lucky that they now have an opportunity to be prepared for these undercover youths; hopefully they will heed the warnings and there will be minimal number of fines etc. imposed.


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    #88
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,256 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    It seems idiotic to me. The Gardai already have the powers to ID people who look underage... if there's a problem with enforcement as it stands, it's because the Gardai either don't have enough resources to police it properly or just don't bother.

    But they're not trying to find out which kids are drinking under age, they want to know who is selling them the booze.
    ascanbe wrote:
    The whole thing doesn't seem to be particularly well thought through.

    Maybe they just haven't told you all the details, and they actually have thought it through.


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    #89
    karlog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭karlog


    Those snitching kids better get what's coming to them.


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    #90
    Wagon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭Wagon


    Really wish the useless fúcker would actually target crime, and not waste his time on this nanny state bullshít.

    Then again, he IS a useless fúcker...


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    #91
    Prof.Badass
    Registered Users Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Prof.Badass


    round tower huntsman wrote: »
    well done ff minister:rolleyes: the country is awash with drugs and scumbags. heroin's spreading like a plague to rural towns from the cities and ahern wahts to use cops to stop kids getting their hands on some blue wicked:mad:.


    http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/3988/333362-laughing_elf_large.jpg

    ^^ mfw poster thinks garda activites have an effect on the availability of drugs.


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