New House wiring

gouch

Hello,

I am currently wiring my own house. I am a qualified electrician but have not wired a house for a few years now. Just want to get some feedback on what im doing.


I am putting in a seperate fuseboard for sockets/rcd power, a seperate fuse board for lights/ most on an RCD and some not on an RCD (Hallways and outside lights attached to the house) and a seperate fuseboard for a plc to control my heating/ text messaging and out side lights in garden. I am running out a 3x6mm SWA for a generator in the garage and putting a changeover beside the fuseboards.

I have ran in 16mm for the mains.
I ran plenty of CAT 6 cables and didnt use any phone cable, even cat 6 out to the eircom box outside.
10mm cable to shower isolator switch and 6mm to the shower for easier connection.
Burgular alarm in house and cables left out for garage
Cat 6 left out for garage.
Stats in some rooms for heating. Heating system is radiators.

7 core cable looped for smoke /heat/carbon monoxide. I have 13 loops left for these. Can I put this amount on the one loop. I have both ends of the loop at the fuseboard just incase. Can I mix carbon monoxide alarms in with the other alarms.

Plenty of tv points with 4 cables in sitting room going to the attic and 2 at every other point.

5 amp sockets wired from light switch in sitting rooms and these circuits will be on an rcd/rcbo.

Emergency light supplies left in the utility room, on top of the kitchen presses, back hallway and one in the upstairs landing.

Bathrooms on there own circuit with 1 light in each room. Do I need to do more in these to comply.

I did not put isolator switches in the kitchen for hard to get to appliances. Dont like this idea at all?



If anybody has any advice/ comments for me, id appreciate it.

Thanks.

grousedogtom

fitting isolators on hard to reach sockets is a regulation

M cebee

you can rcd the bathroom circuits as you have them wired separate


have you provision for connecting emergency lighting to each 'local circuit'?


you should have isolating switches in the kitchen for hard to get to appliances.

'rcbo' the lighting circuits rather than 1 rcd(i assume you have to with the 5amps on same circuit)


2 or 3 cat 6's to garage


i would prob have left 10mm down to shower


16mm for mains unless you're getting 'enhanced' i usually put in 25's for that



you might need a master socket for eircom(ntu) behind eircom box

Dg_

Swa for gates and Cat 6 for intercom and maybe RG 59 ,no harm to have them in.

gouch

7 core for smoke alarms is to allow me to use a base with a relay contact and give the plc an input when smoke alarms go off. This will allow me to send a text message when the smoke alarms go off if I want to.

5 amp sockets are wired with the main room lights so I will use an RCBO.

I will power the gates from the garage after and I have a Poly and a cat 6 cable going to the gates also. I assumed that the cat6 cable would cover me for visual, like ethernet cameras, maybe im wrong.

I can still put in a 10mm from switch to shower if thats better. was intending on putting in 9.5kW shower. I know its on the border for using 10mm.


Hard to reach sockets?? If I place the sockets for the hob ignition and dishwasher in a press near the front, is this still considered inaccessible or can I get away with this.

Thanks for your responses.

M cebee

i've used the relay base


all you need is a pair from the base nearest to the plc -you don't need to loop the pair around-
the 7-core is prob a bad idea as you may induce a voltage into the volt-free contact by using the multicore

1 relay base w/battery backup - so the relay functions when mains is off


you prob already know most of it anyhow:p

altor

gouch wrote: »

Burgular alarm in house and cables left out for garage

You could always install a hybrid system to incorporate anywhere you cant get cables to for the alarm.

gouch

Does the interconnect cable between the smoke alarms do the job of triggering the first smoke alarm and this in turn will change the contact on the relay base. I was not sure about this and asked the wholesaler and he was not sure, hence the 7 core, and there was a drum of if left over anyway.

Ive probably answered my question above. The voltage inducted would be very small id have thought. The PLC would need to see >180 volts or so to trigger the input I think. Now as im only using the first smoke with the relay base, it wont be an issue.

I have 13 alarm points wired in but I think the interconnect will only allow 12. I suppose the carbon monoxide alarms dont need to be interlinked as they are only critical in the room they are in. I have one in each sitting room as I am putting stoves in both. I am putting the smoke alarm and carbon monoxide alarm inline with the centre light and about 3 feet from the walls along the centre line. Is the placement of the CO alarm critical or is one in the room anywhere good enough.

M cebee

pretty sure it does-i'll double check it tomorrow
http://www.eielectronics.com/phocadownload/Datasheets/ei128rbu_datasheet.pdf

http://www.eielectronics.com/images/...FAQs/CO_QA.pdf
think you're right about not interconnecting the CO to the smoke because of the different actions required for CO leak and fire(i've never fitted them)

-but i think you need a 'repeater' on the CO's for bedrooms

i think you know as much as i do:D

2011

The PLC would need to see >180 volts or so to trigger the input I think

Normal practice is to use 24VDC for PLC I/O.

What sort of heating control do you intend to have with the PLC?
I think it is a good idea, but it requires a bit of thought. I think a zone valve and stat per room would be a minimum. If you have analogue inputs you could measure and display room temperatures.

Have you thought about the HMI as in will the PLC have a screen or lights and buttons ?

gouch

I always use 24V dc IO on PLCs in industrial applications. The reason I thought of using 230V in my house was because the plc will control the heating and outside lights. I have inputs coming back from my switches at the front, back and side doors, and maybe upstairs switch also. I have 5 4x1.5 SWA outside for garden lights. I plan to use the plc/switches to control the lights. I did not want to go to the bother of running 2 feeds/ 2 light switches to switches at doors. I also have inputs back from 4 pir sensors, one at each corner of the house, a photocell which I may place underneath the soffit, not sure if this is a good idea or not as it may trigger too early due to shade? and I will also put a frost stat under the soffit so I can run the boiler when im not at home during cold weather.


Analog inputs are very expensive (pt100, cable, signal amplifier) however it would look really cool on a HMI.

I am putting a zone valve/stat in the kitchen, sitting room, living room and back hallway area (small hall, utility room, and bathroom) downstairs.

I am putting a zone valve/stat on each of the 4 bedrooms and one in the hallway to control upstairs and downstairs. Probably wont put any control on the bathroom or ensuite. I will control the walk in wardrobe based on the master bedroom temp.

I also will have a stove which must be able to dump heat to some radiators when the water reaches 55 degrees. I was thinking of leaving the bathrooms free for this if the valves for the sitting rooms are closed.

I am going to put a 3 gang push switch with 3 indication lamps in the utility. This was going to be my only interface with the heating system. A boost for upstairs, downstairs, and hot water. I was thinking that I could get the control so good via the PLC that I didnt need much intervention with it. I will allow for a hmi in the utility but this will probably be an add on later on.

gouch

a

M cebee

gouch wrote: »

Does the interconnect cable between the smoke alarms do the job of triggering the first smoke alarm and this in turn will change the contact on the relay base. I was not sure about this and asked the wholesaler and he was not sure, hence the 7 core, and there was a drum of if left over anyway.

Ive probably answered my question above. The voltage inducted would be very small id have thought. The PLC would need to see >180 volts or so to trigger the input I think. Now as im only using the first smoke with the relay base, it wont be an issue.

I have 13 alarm points wired in but I think the interconnect will only allow 12. I suppose the carbon monoxide alarms dont need to be interlinked as they are only critical in the room they are in. I have one in each sitting room as I am putting stoves in both. I am putting the smoke alarm and carbon monoxide alarm inline with the centre light and about 3 feet from the walls along the centre line. Is the placement of the CO alarm critical or is one in the room anywhere good enough.

i checked that- 1 relay base anywhere on the line for EI interconnected
alarms anyhow

2011

I always use 24V dc IO on PLCs in industrial applications. The reason I thought of using 230V in my house was because the plc will control the heating and outside lights

Normal practice is for PLCs to use 24VDC for I/O. These I/O can be connected to relays (often in PLC cabinets) and contractors (often located in MCCs) that can switch far larger voltages. There are many reasons for this the main ones are:
1) Safety
2) PLCs can only switch small currents.

You may find that you can only have 1 mains circuit per card (or PLC) which may cause other issues.

You could run mains voltage cables back to relays that will provide the PLC with 24VDC I/O.

gouch

230 V is everywhere in houses so there is no extra safety issues.

All my outputs will drive relays/contactors as required. Only the inputs will be direct. I estimate that I will have between 30 and 40 inputs. To add 30-40 interposing relays would be alot of extra space, cost and work and I thought that it was unnecessary.

I assumed that if 230V is present at a light switch, what difference does it make if it goes to a light or a plc input.

I would never do this on an industrial application as it would be assumed that IO was 24V dc and would cvause danger to users.

2011

230 V is everywhere in houses so there is no extra safety issues.

It can be done safely in your house I am sure, but you will have 230VAC across the PLC terminals. As I am sure you know these terminals are quite small, pretty exposed and in close proximity to each other. I am sure you will be able to get over that, but it adds complications. What I was describing was "normal practice".

The other issue is that each card (I assume you are using cards?) will have to be from 1 power source (or circuit) if you do not use relays all of your inputs will be on one circuit. Is this not an issue for you??

Would the price of the relays not be covered by the savings on cable? For 24VDC the cable is far cheaper.

All my outputs will drive relays/contactors as required.

Well then the panel will not add that much space.

I know what you are saying will work. I am just making suggestions. It sounds interesting. Out of interest what are the 30 inputs going to be??

Analog inputs are very expensive (pt100, cable, signal amplifier) however it would look really cool on a HMI.

Try radionics for cheap PT100s and temperature transmitters. I got them there before quite cheap.

Try EBay for a cheap dated PLC with analogue I/O. A dated PLC for an industrial application will still do far more than you would ever want.

Good luck with it!!

gouch

Inputs are something like this;

Pir front left house
Pir front right house
Pir back left house
Pir back right house
photocell
frost stat
stove stat
cylinder hot water stat
kitchen room stat
living room stat
sitting room stat
back hallroom stat
master bedroom room stat
bedroom 2 room stat
bedroom 3 room stat
bedroom 4 room stat
upstairs hall room stat
3 inputs from front door switch
3 inputs from side door switch
3 inputs from fback door switch
smoke alarms in alarm
burgular alarm in alarm
sms input to turn on heating??
3 inputs from boost heating switch

Any other inputs that may be relevant, please make suggestions. Maybe a meter on the oil would be interesting to gauge the costs of running different heating arrangements, with and without stove etc.

imitation

2011 wrote: »

Try EBay for a cheap dated PLC with analogue I/O. A dated PLC for an industrial application will still do far more than you would ever want.

Good luck with it!!

The one thing to watch out for with the PLC is if your getting a second hand one make sure you have the software or some method of programming it (like those handheld programmers if your going really Jurassic). A PLC will be no use to you if you have to pay the likes of Siemens a couple of grand for the programming suite.

slavetothegrind

also alan in TCM controls http://www.tcmcontrols.com/
for the temp sensors controllers etc might be an option
yet to see radionics cheap!!!;)

2011

The one thing to watch out for with the PLC is if your getting a second hand one make sure you have the software or some method of programming it (like those handheld programmers if your going really Jurassic).

I did not mean that "Jurassic"

A PLC will be no use to you if you have to pay the likes of Siemens a couple of grand for the programming suite.

A valid point alright.

I get the impression from the OP that he uses PLCs at work so I assume that he will try to go for the same make and therefore will have access to the software.

Normally people can find the required software "floating around" if you are working in this area.

Dardania

maybe an interesting input to the PLC would be whether the intruder alarm is set or not... When its set you could have a setpoint in the house that is lower than when the house is occupied

imitation

2011 wrote: »

I did not mean that "Jurassic"

To be fair I used one at college, and im sure it will do the trick too

Normally people can find the required software "floating around" if you are working in this area.

Like the Iranians did, and who now find themselves a possible target of a virus. Could be a few possible nations, could be Siemens who are sick of people not paying licences :pac:

On topic, a quick google seems to reveal that allen bradly sell reasonably priced PLC's with software.

2011

imitation wrote: »

To be fair I used one at college, and im sure it will do the trick too

Me too and I also used a Dragon 32 in school, but that does not mean I would recommend either in this day and age!

could be Siemens who are sick of people not paying licences :pac:

Yes. I should have been clearer, I was suggesting that it could be programmed in work.

On topic, a quick google seems to reveal that allen bradly sell reasonably priced PLC's with software.

+1 Allen Bradley make a great PLC.

imitation

2011 wrote: »

Yes. I should have been clearer, I was suggesting that it could be programmed in work.

I was thinking you were inferring that to be fair, I was more fishing for an excuse to link that story.

The one risk with programming at work is that should you loose access to your programmer you'll be snookered if you ever need to change or fix anything.

gouch

Thanks Dardania for your suggestion. It would make sence allright to have a setback setpoint when house is unoccupied.

I have also been thinking of putting a temp probe on the cylinder. This will indicate to me how much hot water is available in the tank for showers etc.

I use Allen Bradley PLCs in work mainly. But I have done some work with siemens, mitsubishi, omron and telemecanique ans some other various models.

I will just use what is available at the time and I will programme it myself.

kennykeno1

Hi All

I am wiring my house in the coming weeks. I am in the building game but do not know much about Smart Sound, intelligent homes, etc. Can you advise what to do and who to get? I hear Smart Homes.ie will cost an arm and a leg. Could I just get my sparks to put in cat6 surround sound etc. Its just cable at the end of the day.

2011

kennykeno1 wrote: »

Hi All

I am wiring my house in the coming weeks. I am in the building game but do not know much about Smart Sound, intelligent homes, etc.

I guess the starting point is to decide exactly what you require.
Also, work out what your budget is.

My work involves instrumentation and automation so I like the idea of using PLCs.

Can you advise what to do and who to get? I hear Smart Homes.ie will cost an arm and a leg.

I have heard that about Smarthomes too, but I have no direct experience with them.

Could I just get my sparks to put in cat6 surround sound etc.

You could, but the key to success is to pick the right electrician.

Its just cable at the end of the day.

Correct cable selection is crucial. This cannot be emphasized enough.
Also positioning of speakers makes a big difference to sound quality and practicality.

Cheap and nasty speaker cable installed connected to a high quality sound system = plenty of noise and poor sound !

To do a "smart home" correctly requires quite a bit of thought and discussion between the electrical contractor and the client.

As you are in the building game I am sure you will appreciate just how difficult it can be to install cabling once the house is complete.

If your budget is tight I would advise that you install cabling for every conceivable scenario and install / second fix what you can afford at the moment. In time you will then have the option to add when it is affordable.

Good luck with it!