Condensing Oil boiler design - Grant & Firebird best?

mcauleyj

Hi,

I'm in the market for a condensing oil boiler & considering either the Firebird C44 or Grant 36/46 boilers.

I've seen recommendations for both on previous posts here on boards.ie & am wondering which boiler would be the best quality, or more reliable long term?
I'm happy enough with the efficiency ratings, there doesnt seem to be much in it between the two - but I'd like to hear how people have got on using either of these two brands, any problems or are people happy with both, especially those who have had them for a few years?

The Grant looks to have a traditional bottom up design where the secondary heat exchanger is at the top - whereas the Firebird has a top-down approach, with the burner at the top and secondary heat exchanger at the bottom.

The Firebird docs list one advantage of their design with a bottom secondary heat exchanger being no need for a seal between the primary & secondary exchangers. Anyone know how the Grant stops the condensate falling back into the mild steel boiler, is there a seal or tray catcher?

Some of the German condensing boilers have a top fired burner - Hoval & Rotex, which is making me look at this again.
I'm probably over-analysing, but I've been flipping back and forth between choosing the Grant or Firebird, hope to get a physical look at the two sometime soon to help make up my mind - but in the meantime thought I'd see what you guys think!

John

DoneDL

They are both good boilers, I would give Grant the edge because I would use them out of preference. Firebird are Probably neater but I'm still not convinced that down firing burners are a step forward and some concerns have been raised about the lifespan of blast tubes, baffle plates etc. Whatever installer you use will have their own preference and will most likely do the servicing and repair in the future so I would go with their recommendation.

JohnnieK

DoneDL wrote: »

They are both good boilers, I would give Grant the edge because I would use them out of preference. Firebird are Probably neater but I'm still not convinced that down firing burners are a step forward and some concerns have been raised about the lifespan of blast tubes, baffle plates etc. Whatever installer you use will have their own preference and will most likely do the servicing and repair in the future so I would go with their recommendation.

In a nut shell.

Micky Dolenz

DoneDL wrote: »

They are both good boilers, I would give Grant the edge because I would use them out of preference. Firebird are Probably neater but I'm still not convinced that down firing burners are a step forward and some concerns have been raised about the lifespan of blast tubes, baffle plates etc. Whatever installer you use will have their own preference and will most likely do the servicing and repair in the future so I would go with their recommendation.

I would favour Firebird.It's cheaper, Options of coming off either side of boiler, cheaper plum kit and easier to fit.

The high mounted burner may be an issue depending on oil tank but fitting a tiger loop or similar would negate this.

OP, thats a big boiler you are going for.

JohnnieK

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I would favour Firebird.It's cheaper, Options of coming off either side of boiler, cheaper plum kit and easier to fit.

The high mounted burner may be an issue depending on oil tank but fitting a tiger loop or similar would negate this.

OP, thats a big boiler you are going for.

Where do you get your Firebird boiler's Micky? I find them dearer than Grant or Warmflow any time I have to get an oil boiler. I use Heatmerchants and DPL to name a few.

ntpm

JohnnieK wrote: »

Where do you get your Firebird boiler's Micky? I find them dearer than Grant or Warmflow any time I have to get an oil boiler. I use Heatmerchants and DPL to name a few.

like most things shop around and you might get a little cheaper.Play them against each other. The likes of Heatmerchants don't seem to be that flexible on prices.

Grant Euroflame is cheaper than Grant Vortex.
Vortex seems better made and comes prewired with stats etc.

Firebird seems ok but back up service not great I did have issues with oil pumps that they weren't happy to admit too. Put me off them for a while.
they seem to have got their act together now.

Would aggree with Micky Dolenz it's unusual to put a large boiler like this in nowadays.
With proper zoneing, controls and TRV's the peak load may not be as big as you think. Although in theory the Whole House approach to boiler design is still regarded as the correct way of designing.... but I have my doubts if it is any longer acurate.

Especially if you have any other sources of heat in the house ( stoves, solar, etc)

kscobie

both are good boilers, generally use the grant now because you dont have to fit a plume kit each time with a low level flue

mcauleyj

Jeepers - last time I checked there were no replies - now 6, thanks chaps!

DoneDL - do you mean the lifetime of baffles & blast tube of the Firebird versus Grant, or the fact that top mounted burner designs would be more harsh on baffles/ blast tube??

Micky Dolenz & ntpm - Aye, its a big enough boiler but should have the range that I need, heres my reasoning:

House is ~3000 sq feet. Radiators all round (no TRV's), with 3 zones - upstairs, downstairs & hot water. Two stats - one downstairs in main living room and one upstairs in master bed - both of these rooms are south facing.
Current heat source is by Scotte/Dor 30kW wood pellet boiler (& 500l buffer tank) which we have had in now since late 2006 when the house was finished.

2 main problems, the first of which I hope to get sorted in the next 3-4 weeks:

1. During winter months, if both zones (upstairs & downstairs) are on, the current boiler seems to struggle - all rads are warm, but not roasting & the boiler just never gets up to or even near its cut off temp (where it would modulate & reduce its output).
Turning off either zone & everything is fine - rads good temp, boiler gets up to temp eventually & modulates, even can shut off and the buffer reduces cycling.

- So this makes me think that the current heat output capability is insufficient (Although rated at 30 kW would image I'm probably getting less heat output that rated from this, as the 30kW is probably under ideal lab conditions with the moon at a certain position in the sky!)
- The 36/46 kW (120/150,000 BTU) is the next range up in boiler size and should give me flexibility through nozzle sizes/air and pump settings to get a suitable output, at least thats what I hope.

2. With the current limited zoning, the main living room heats up quicker than the kitchen at the back, so heating knocks off leaving kitchen a bit cooler than we would want, whereas another small downstairs room could be roasting. Similar problem exists upstairs to a lesser extent.
- I know I could probably sort this out by more balancing of the system and possibly adding TRV's (which would help the overheat locations) & maybe moving the stats to cooler location.
- But ideally I would like control over each room. (If I was building a house with rads myself I would now opt for a manifold feed to heat room, with individual room stat contolling each location, just like the underfloor controls)
- The only option that I can think of for me to achieve this now (well without wrecking floors etc) is ading a TRV style radiator valve body & electric actuator to each radiator, and retro fitting a stat for each room.
- I have heard of Hometronic (wireless actuator based) and a wired system called TEC (I think) that are designed for this. The Hometronic is expensive, I have no idea about the cost of the TEC one. Another option would be to buy TWA (Thermal wax actuators) and do a system yourself.
- This whole idea is longer term, will see how the new oil boiler & re-balance goes then can decide what to do regarding control next spring/summer.


BTW we bought the house, didnt build ourselves & now realise that if we had built we could have ensured more emphasis was put on insulation, air-tightness & proper zoning!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing - I have since realised that there is only about 25-50mm of polystyrene insulation in the floor (nothing I can do) and 100mm insulation in the attic - some of the attic is easy to sort out by adding more, although the house is 1.5 story & the sloping ceiling bit is more of a pain - I have done one section completely (an outshot from main building) and had to take out the existsing rigid insulation, add some fibreglass roll - right down to meet the cavity closer and put the rigid piece back on top, keeping a 50mm air gap (lucky the trusses were deep on the roof) - the improvement was fantastic!
Now still have the rest of the house to do. Real slow task as I have to work from attic with sticks and torches to get it done!

Rant over!

ntpm - was the oil pump problem not a Riello problem? I think I heard someting about them a while back.

kscobie - Does the Firebird need a plume dispersal kit? I thought they were optional fit on any boiler?

Thanks for the thread responses folks btw! It's good to get other folks opinions on stuff.

John

Micky Dolenz

How far away is the boiler from the house?

I think the problem may lay with the boiler. A 30KW boiler is probably more than enough to heat your property.

ntpm

TRV's, TRV's TRV's.

Trust me when I say that TRV's will definetley help.
Sounds as if the zoning is more than adequate for your setup.
the rad's that are strugling to heat will benefit as the warmer rooms will shut down their TRV's and allow the pump to circulate water where its need most.
You will get even temperatures throughout the house and this will reduce any draft that occur due to temperature differences.
I have little experience with Wood pellet boiler but still think that upsizing the boiler may be the wrong approach.
Take measurments of all rads and cylinder and take it to someone to size the boiler. Don't mention what you have at moment and see what they come up with.

Re Oil pump problem.. yes riello pumps but trying to get Firebird to take ownership of problem was the issue.

Traditional

have you heard of Turco Boilers ? check out theit website made in Ireland , great boiler fitted one last week, home owner well pleased with results , replaced a firebird , an old one .

DoneDL

OP if you had posted the last post first, you might have got a different reply. In reference to Firebird they first suggested hollow nozzles where they now ask for solid cone which sorted some problems. Yes there did seem to be problems with blast tubes and baffle plates deteriorating, also had problems with the condensate pump and they changed the insulation on the baffle door. If the wood pellet boiler is in the garage did the plumbers use purpose made pipework in the ground or did they bodge it? Are you sifting the pellets to prevent clogging and is the heating pump up to the job. Insulation is a must and there are grants available. Whatever you decide to do the fabric of the building will decide the boiler size and fitting a larger boiler may not cure anything.

kscobie

firebird were fitting them to prevent the photocell blackening up, but they changed the design and nozzle supplied, think they are ok now, roughly require 30kw for heating, boiler rated at 26/36kw would seem right

Sparkpea

I fit Warmflow by preferance and have the best relationship with them. If the customer wants the best then I would probably suggest Worchester Bosch but you'll pay a wack more for it. I would refuse to install a Turco boiler.

Traditional

you must be against anybody who sets a business up in Ireland , with the recession you should be supporting any home grown business , of course if you have a vested interested well that s different , so what is it ?

mcauleyj

Micky Dolenz -
The Garage is about 10m from the house, the flow & return pipes are 28mm plastic, insulated with normal pipe insulation (not the heavy black stuff) that are fed into the house in a 4inch sewer duct.

ntpm -
I agree with your reckoning that TRV's will help, in fact I have been looking at some and am considering some o fthe Danfoss (RF-FN or RAS-C) or Honeywell (VT2000 or VT117E/VT200) bodies then whatever head suits.
I did go round the house and add up the rated output of all rads, total came to 31.2 kW (~106500 BTU) - this excludes the hot water demand (we have a 215l tank) & doesnt account for any losses.
Thats why I thought I'd go up to the 120/150 boiler size - but I understand that, especially for a condensing boiler - oversizing is not a good idea, but at the same time I dont want to be left in the same situation I am now & thinking I need more heat capability.

Traditional -
Thanks for the heads up - I had never heard of Turco & looks like they are based in Cookstown, which is not too far away from myself (Randalstown). At the moment tbh, I'm inclined to stick with the likes of Firebird or Grant.

DoneDL
- Regarding connections to boiler, see earlier.
- The pump is a Wilo 6m head - now I was wondering if maybe it couldnt push the water round the whole house when both zones were on for whatever reason (maybe too much small bore pipework (22 when 32 would have been better, etc etc) but I dont really know, its probably OK - plus where do you go to next after a 6m head pump?
- WRT the pellets, I dont have to sift - everything has been grand with them in that respect so far, the boiler hasnt been to bad in dealing with a bit of dust.
- Again, I agree that insulation is the key & if it improves, then the heat requirement goes down.

KScobie - thanks for the info on the Fibrebird probs.

Sparkpea - I have got the impression from some people I have talked to that their preference has shifted recently from Warmflow to Grant (but in the past (non-condensing) they had always used Warmflow) - though I dont know the reason for this though.
Are Worchester Bosch really a lot better? I wonder what the price delta would be wrt the likes of the Grant?


From some of the replies here, it looks like the Firebird has had a few issues - thats making me think I'd be better off going down the Grant route (which I can get slightly cheaper than the Firebird anyhow). My brother has the Grant 120/150, similar sized house and is happy enough with it.

One other thing thats on my mind - bunded oil tanks (I'm near water so need a bund apparantly).
Have had quotes in for Harlequin and PCRoto. Can get a 1000l Harlequin or 1300l PCRoto for similar money - anyone have any opinions on these two brands?

Finally - I live near Randalstown Co. Antrim - anyone recommend a good OFTEC registered plumber in the area?

Thanks again for all replies!

John

DoneDL

Try a grundfos pump with a six meter head, it may solve the problem and if it doesn't you've always got a spare pump.

aujopimur

The Grant boilers have a higher effiency rating than the Firebird.

Micky Dolenz

aujopimur wrote: »

The Grant boilers have a higher effiency rating than the Firebird.

Have you a link to back up this?

Sparkpea

Warmflow are made in Lisburn and I work/live in Lisburn so thats supporting local business

JohnnieK

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Have you a link to back up this?

Look up the SEDBUK database under the oil fired section. He speaks the truth.

mcauleyj

JohnnieK wrote: »

Look up the SEDBUK database under the oil fired section. He speaks the truth.

For the actual models I'm looking at, it is the other way round:

Firebird C44: 93.6%
http://www.sedbuk.com/cgi-local/detail.cgi?fone=000047&ftwo=Enviromax%20Kitchen%20C44&fthr=%20&ffou=015811&in_blank=123

Grant 36/46: 92.6%
http://www.sedbuk.com/cgi-local/detail.cgi?fone=000048&ftwo=Vortex&fthr=Utility%2036-46&ffou=010171&in_blank=123

Either way, theres not much in it.

mcauleyj

DoneDL wrote: »

Try a grundfos pump with a six meter head, it may solve the problem and if it doesn't you've always got a spare pump.

You find the Grundfos a better pump than the likes of Wilo?

Micky Dolenz

Your boiler is very far from the house, you probably are losing alot of heat on the way in. Any way you could relocate boiler closer to property? Maybe a heatpac version or utility version?

kscobie

mcauleyj wrote: »

You find the Grundfos a better pump than the likes of Wilo?

Both are probally the best pumps on the market, only difference is colour! If i were in your shoes, i would probally fit an outdoor boiler where the pipes leave the building, and dont forget to run a 4 core cable, perment supply needed for the inbuilt frost stat

Sparkpea

ntpm wrote: »

Would aggree with Micky Dolenz it's unusual to put a large boiler like this in nowadays.
With proper zoneing, controls and TRV's the peak load may not be as big as you think. Although in theory the Whole House approach to boiler design is still regarded as the correct way of designing.... but I have my doubts if it is any longer acurate.)

I know with warmflow the only difference between their 70/90 boiler and 90/120 is the jet in the burner, I'm led to believe the boiler size, water capacity etc. are all the same although I've not read this anywhere myself so far - are other manufactures not like this? Ok obviously a 120/150 is alot bigger but I'm not uptodate on the kw->btu conversion so you're possibly talking about one of these.

(edit - ah its a 120/150)

mcauleyj wrote: »

ntpm -
I agree with your reckoning that TRV's will help, in fact I have been looking at some and am considering some o fthe Danfoss (RF-FN or RAS-C) or Honeywell (VT2000 or VT117E/VT200) bodies then whatever head suits.
I did go round the house and add up the rated output of all rads, total came to 31.2 kW (~106500 BTU) - this excludes the hot water demand (we have a 215l tank) & doesnt account for any losses.
Thats why I thought I'd go up to the 120/150 boiler size - but I understand that, especially for a condensing boiler - oversizing is not a good idea, but at the same time I dont want to be left in the same situation I am now & thinking I need more heat capability.

I know a man who installed a 50/70 HE boiler and a 70/90 beside each other and linked them together. The 50/70 fired first for hotwater etc. then the 70/90 came on depending on what other zones where needed. So the 50/70 maybe fed HW + downstairs for example but in the winter time both boilers would run to heat the upstairs also. He set the thermostat lower on one of the boilers (probably the 70/90) so that the 50/70 would fire more as it used less oil. Ok he had 2 setup costs 2 boilers, 2 pumps, flues etc. but after the 2nd year he broke even and after the 3rd year he made a saving in his oil cost - anyone else done something like this?

- The pump is a Wilo 6m head - now I was wondering if maybe it couldnt push the water round the whole house when both zones were on for whatever reason (maybe too much small bore pipework (22 when 32 would have been better, etc etc) but I dont really know, its probably OK - plus where do you go to next after a 6m head pump?

is it a sealed system? how many radiators are there? would a 125pump be over the top?

Sparkpea - I have got the impression from some people I have talked to that their preference has shifted recently from Warmflow to Grant (but in the past (non-condensing) they had always used Warmflow) - though I dont know the reason for this though.
Are Worchester Bosch really a lot better? I wonder what the price delta would be wrt the likes of the Grant?

warmflow did have a problem a few years ago with the machine that welded the hooks that the baffles sat on, it was burning too hot and caused them to leak which is why some people maybe moved away from warmflow HE boilers but its been rectified now and they've always had decent enough aftersales care. A Worchester Bosch standard efficiency boilesr seemed to run more efficiently from what clients have reported in comparison to warmflow bluebirds but ive not seen the figures. The past few warmflow HE boilers have fitted have been producing efficency results at 98% efficiency with 66 degrees heatloss through the warmflow HE plastic balance flue kit. I was impressed with the results.

One other thing thats on my mind - bunded oil tanks (I'm near water so need a bund apparantly).
Have had quotes in for Harlequin and PCRoto. Can get a 1000l Harlequin or 1300l PCRoto for similar money - anyone have any opinions on these two brands?

give ricky a ring in haldane fisher lisburn 92 67 61 61 and ask him to quote you a bunded tank, he saved me over £300+vat on my last bunded tank compared to my usual plumbing wholesaler!!!!

Finally - I live near Randalstown Co. Antrim - anyone recommend a good OFTEC registered plumber in the area?

nowadays I use graham lucas in lisburn, hes gas and oil registered and has all his certs and latest equipment 07939922343 but have previously used richard dillion in antrim 07989142746.

both are great blokes.

mcauleyj wrote: »

You find the Grundfos a better pump than the likes of Wilo?

9 times out of 10 I will use wilo but have only been recently made aware that grundfos pumps will pump slightly faster than wilo and this has a better effect on some systems particularly with underfloor heating.

mcauleyj

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Your boiler is very far from the house, you probably are losing alot of heat on the way in. Any way you could relocate boiler closer to property? Maybe a heatpac version or utility version?

Thanks Micky - we did that very thing at my parents house, replacing an old oil-converted stove, but its not going to be handy in my case, so it will just have to go in the garage and take the hit!

mcauleyj

Sparkpea wrote: »

I know with warmflow the only difference between their 70/90 boiler and 90/120 is the jet in the burner, I'm led to believe the boiler size, water capacity etc. are all the same although I've not read this anywhere myself so far - are other manufactures not like this? Ok obviously a 120/150 is alot bigger but I'm not uptodate on the kw->btu conversion so you're possibly talking about one of these.

(edit - ah its a 120/150)

Yep, its a 120/150 - I know what you mean regarding same boiler, different burner for the different heat outputs. Also given one particular model, the heat output can be altered depending on nozzle, oil pump and aire settings.

I know a man who installed a 50/70 HE boiler and a 70/90 beside each other and linked them together. The 50/70 fired first for hotwater etc. then the 70/90 came on depending on what other zones where needed. So the 50/70 maybe fed HW + downstairs for example but in the winter time both boilers would run to heat the upstairs also. He set the thermostat lower on one of the boilers (probably the 70/90) so that the 50/70 would fire more as it used less oil. Ok he had 2 setup costs 2 boilers, 2 pumps, flues etc. but after the 2nd year he broke even and after the 3rd year he made a saving in his oil cost - anyone else done something like this?

> This seems like a good idea, as oil boilers do not modulated their heat output - this is the next best thing. Using a smaller boiler for normal use, topped up when needed by the other boiler. Grand as long as you have the space tho! Sounds like the cascade systems district heating places use.

is it a sealed system? how many radiators are there? would a 125pump be over the top?

> Yep, sealed system with 22 radiators - mostly doubles, some singles and towel rads. 1 room has 3 rads, others others 2 or one.
I have never heard of a 125 pump, must look this up when I get home from work.

warmflow did have a problem a few years ago with the machine that welded the hooks that the baffles sat on, it was burning too hot and caused them to leak which is why some people maybe moved away from warmflow HE boilers but its been rectified now and they've always had decent enough aftersales care. A Worchester Bosch standard efficiency boilesr seemed to run more efficiently from what clients have reported in comparison to warmflow bluebirds but ive not seen the figures. The past few warmflow HE boilers have fitted have been producing efficency results at 98% efficiency with 66 degrees heatloss through the warmflow HE plastic balance flue kit. I was impressed with the results.

> Thanks for the update on warmflow. I have heard conflicting reports about them - some people recommend them, others say they used to use them but moved away. This makes sense now - I was actually talking to a fella at the weekend who has a warmflow condenser in his house atm & is more than happy with it.

give ricky a ring in haldane fisher lisburn 92 67 61 61 and ask him to quote you a bunded tank, he saved me over £300+vat on my last bunded tank compared to my usual plumbing wholesaler!!!!


nowadays I use graham lucas in lisburn, hes gas and oil registered and has all his certs and latest equipment 07939922343 but have previously used richard dillion in antrim 07989142746.

both are great blokes.


9 times out of 10 I will use wilo but have only been recently made aware that grundfos pumps will pump slightly faster than wilo and this has a better effect on some systems particularly with underfloor heating.

> Thanks for the info on the plumbers & pumps!

freeman2013

Hi guys I never had any experience with oil heating, some say it is very expensive comparing to gas

I have: Vortex Condensing Boiler House 50-90,000Btu/hr (15-26kW)

Does anybody know how much it would cost me to keep my house warm - 5.7m x 7.5m (ground floor + first floor)

????

scudo2

It all depends on the usage as in hours, insulation and type of system.
But saying all that, you have one of the best and most economical boiler that you can get. Brilliant boiler.

ps. I'm a full time oil service engineer so I do know a bit about oil boilers.!

freeman2013

Thanks took some pressure off me

There 5 of us; me, my wife and 3 kids are about to move into the new house in 2-3 weeks time and i haven't got a monkey clue about the oil heating. never had it before. Kids are small and will stay at home all day after school so it looks like going to be burnt a lot of oil to keep it warm!? Any idea how much the oil cost to fill the tank? is there same type of oil or there are some other?

Some friends of me said oil will be very expensive to burn comparing to gas, is that true?

scudo2

freeman2013 wrote: »

Thanks took some pressure off me

There 5 of us; me, my wife and 3 kids are about to move into the new house in 2-3 weeks time and i haven't got a monkey clue about the oil heating. never had it before. Kids are small and will stay at home all day after school so it looks like going to be burnt a lot of oil to keep it warm!? Any idea how much the oil cost to fill the tank? is there same type of oil or there are some other?

Some friends of me said oil will be very expensive to burn comparing to gas, is that true?

Kerosene oil.
Some oil Co. do a monthly payment plan.
Your good oil boiler is better than a lot of older gas ones so its 50/50 give or take a small bit.

Kerosene is about 87 cents a ltr at the moment I think.
Budget for €1.25 per hour but again that depends on how good the house is !

freeman2013

scudo2 wrote: »

Kerosene oil.
Some oil Co. do a monthly payment plan.
Your good oil boiler is better than a lot of older gas ones so its 50/50 give or take a small bit.

Kerosene is about 87 cents a ltr at the moment I think.
Budget for €1.25 per hour but again that depends on how good the house is !

Thanks for information, good to know..

€1.25 per hour - is that a minimum??

TPM

when it comes to the cost of heating a house the type of fuel is far less important than the insulation properties of the house, (insulation, windows and doors, draughts)

scudo2

TPM wrote: »

when it comes to the cost of heating a house the type of fuel is far less important than the insulation properties of the house, (insulation, windows and doors, draughts)

Totaly agree

But Freeman,
your boiler HAS to use kerosene in case you get mixed up.

TPM ment between gas and oil.

A lot of people order home heating oil for the first time not realising the could be asking for diesel instead of kerosene. And making a simple but common mistake.
Grant Vortex use kerosene only.
Always ask for kerosene when ordering, never take it for granted that the oil Co. know.

freeman2013

But Freeman,
your boiler HAS to use kerosene in case you get mixed up.

TPM ment between gas and oil.

A lot of people order home heating oil for the first time not realising the could be asking for diesel instead of kerosene. And making a simple but common mistake.
Grant Vortex use kerosene only.
Always ask for kerosene when ordering, never take it for granted that the oil Co. know.

Many Thanks scudo2 for your time and advice. I appreciate it.
Have a nice weekend!
In 2 - 3 weeks time i'm moving in, therefore I'll probably ask you for some more information regarding proper usage of that boiler

gertheplumber

hello all ,just to put the record straight as a plumber of 28 years experience it took a while for me to get used to the principle that a condensing boiler should work to the absolute limit of its output in order to achieve its efficiency rating i.e if the system requires 24kw of heat input a 30kw condensing boiler will not deliver any savings on running costs over a conventional boiler FACT contact any manufacturer and they will confirm this . For the most part we have had the tendency to over compensate when calculating the boiler size. in my opinion the best scenario is to put extra emphasis on insulating the living spaces and using low water and low thermal inertia heating systems coupled with an efficient heat producer.
FACT condensing boilers of any sort only achieve their efficiency rating when the return temp. is at least 20 c differential, this means that the boiler is perfectly matched with the demand requirement.Unfortunately this is only the case in a perfect scenario, in most cases plumbers [mea culpa]will err on the side of caution , which could mean you end up with a 35kw boiler instead of a 26kw boiler . apart from the cost of the boiler theres the additional running costs which over 20 years are considerable. I welcome any queries .

Wearb

gertheplumber wrote: »

hello all ,just to put the record straight as a plumber of 28 years experience it took a while for me to get used to the principle that a condensing boiler should work to the absolute limit of its output in order to achieve its efficiency rating i.e if the system requires 24kw of heat input a 30kw condensing boiler will not deliver any savings on running costs over a conventional boiler FACT contact any manufacturer and they will confirm this . For the most part we have had the tendency to over compensate when calculating the boiler size. in my opinion the best scenario is to put extra emphasis on insulating the living spaces and using low water and low thermal inertia heating systems coupled with an efficient heat producer.
FACT condensing boilers of any sort only achieve their efficiency rating when the return temp. is at least 20 c differential, this means that the boiler is perfectly matched with the demand requirement.Unfortunately this is only the case in a perfect scenario, in most cases plumbers [mea culpa]will err on the side of caution , which could mean you end up with a 35kw boiler instead of a 26kw boiler . apart from the cost of the boiler theres the additional running costs which over 20 years are considerable. I welcome any queries .

I don't think that you are going to get many queries. You show an enormous lack of understanding in the way a condensing boiler works in its totality. Where do you get off saying that "contact any manufacturer and they will confirm this". Rubbish. Your whole post shows that even after all your years of experience, you have only half grasped the workings of those boilers. I hope you are nearing retirement for the sake of any of your potential customers.

JohnnieK

That's a strange post!!

gertheplumber

Hey man who the he'll are you? Ive been to two boiler manufacturers facilities at their behest and Got
All the blurb as well as all the sales pitch from the competition . I can tell everyone who wants to be a little bit clued in as to what can be the best way to get the best long term benefits of a heating system as today ...not in a future fantasy world of perfect weather and affordable oil prices
listen to a pro , would you get a quote from an asshole on the interrupted?
.NOT LIKELY . So take a pin ch of salt folks

gertheplumber

Predictive text can be a problem some f times K

jimf

welcome back haven't seen you around here in a while

Dtp1979

gertheplumber wrote: »

hello all ,just to put the record straight as a plumber of 28 years experience it took a while for me to get used to the principle that a condensing boiler should work to the absolute limit of its output in order to achieve its efficiency rating i.e if the system requires 24kw of heat input a 30kw condensing boiler will not deliver any savings on running costs over a conventional boiler FACT contact any manufacturer and they will confirm this . For the most part we have had the tendency to over compensate when calculating the boiler size. in my opinion the best scenario is to put extra emphasis on insulating the living spaces and using low water and low thermal inertia heating systems coupled with an efficient heat producer.
FACT condensing boilers of any sort only achieve their efficiency rating when the return temp. is at least 20 c differential, this means that the boiler is perfectly matched with the demand requirement.Unfortunately this is only the case in a perfect scenario, in most cases plumbers [mea culpa]will err on the side of caution , which could mean you end up with a 35kw boiler instead of a 26kw boiler . apart from the cost of the boiler theres the additional running costs which over 20 years are considerable. I welcome any queries .

Well for a start, what kind of idiot plumber would oversize a condensing boiler??? Slightly undersize

scudo2

We back in bizz boys !

POPCORN Time at last !!

Egass13

There's no such thing as a condensing boiler , that's what they want you to believe . It's all a smokescreen for the illuminati to exploit citizens and feed the corporate machine .

This makes as much sense as your post .

Egass13

Egass13 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a condensing boiler , that's what they want you to believe . It's all a smokescreen for the illuminati to exploit citizens and feed the corporate machine.

Wow and you've only been in Cork a couple of days.

Egass13

gary71 wrote: »

Wow and you've only been in Cork a couple of days.

They've changed me down here , they have these 'potato pies' . Unreal , they've completely opened my eyes.

Dtp1979

Wait till ya hear his new cork/dub accent

Egass13

Egass13 wrote: »

They've changed me down here , they have these 'potato pies' . Unreal , they've completely opened my eyes.

Your lucky, I'm not a fan, bloody plumber down their tried to murder me once, must be the London accent.

Bit like "Deliverance" without me having to squeal like a pig.

Robbie.G

gary71 wrote: »

Your lucky, I'm not a fan, bloody plumber down their tried to murder me once, must be the London accent.

Bit like "Deliverance" without me having to squeal like a pig.

You have that effect on people I thought it was just up my way good to know its everywhere you go :):)

Robbie.G

Robbie.G wrote: »

You have that effect on people I thought it was just up my way good to know its everywhere you go :):)

Yea, I know I can be a little bit annoying but trying to drown me at sea in a half blown up inflatable canoe while wearing a child's life vest in a storm was a bit uncalled for.